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I know theres probably alot of threads already on this subject, but i ve just finished reading the latest Horus Heresy book "Age of Darkness" and in one of the short stories it seems heavily hinted at the Thousand Sons have something to do with the Blood Ravens. For example the motto "knowledge is power" is used and care is taken by the author to pick out the symbol of the Corvidae, one of the Thousand Sons psyker groups as being a black Raven. As such i was wondering if anyone else had come to a similar conclusion or even a contradictory one

You're right, there has been a lot of threads about this recently. Very recently. As in, last week, 4 pages of debate over it. Use the search function, or just look at the front page.

Forlorne wrote:I know theres probably alot of threads already on this subject, but i ve just finished reading the latest Horus Heresy book "Age of Darkness" and in one of the short stories it seems heavily hinted at the Thousand Sons have something to do with the Blood Ravens. For example the motto "knowledge is power" is used and care is taken by the author to pick out the symbol of the Corvidae, one of the Thousand Sons psyker groups as being a black Raven. As such i was wondering if anyone else had come to a similar conclusion or even a contradictory one

1) "Knowledge is Power" is a stupidly common saying, used by everyone from the Word Bearers to the Dark Angels to the Night Lords and Ultramarines during the Great Crusade and the Heresy itself. To think that's a 'great connection' is silly. It's a saying that evolved simply because the whole point of the Imperium is to dispel religion with science and knowledge.
2) The symbol of the Corvidae is not the same as the Blood Ravens. It's a black raven head(in the other thread, I said 'skull', which was me mixing things up. Raven Guard have raven skulls that they use to adorn their armor), not a full black raven with a blood drop in the center.

1) The Thousand Sons theory could be ok..
2) BUT: remember there are 2 Primarchs who are completely deleted from the Imperial Records. See lexanicum. Perheps one of them? Those 2 most be traitor, btw.

thenoobbomb wrote:1) The Thousand Sons theory could be ok..

It's a theory, and about as substantive at this point in time as the idea that trailer park inhabitants are being abducted by extraterrestrials to learn about humanity.

2) BUT: remember there are 2 Primarchs who are completely deleted from the Imperial Records. See lexanicum. Perheps one of them? Those 2 most be traitor, btw.

No. Those 2 Primarchs who are 'completely deleted from the Imperial Records' aren't going to be tied to the Blood Ravens. They're also not going to have been used as the basis for any further Foundings.

the blood ravens could be a thirteenth founded chapter that may have used pre-heresy geenseed from the thousand sons. Pure conjecture though... all of it... there is no reference for any of what i wrote.

Kanluwen wrote:
2) BUT: remember there are 2 Primarchs who are completely deleted from the Imperial Records. See lexanicum. Perheps one of them? Those 2 most be traitor, btw.

No. Those 2 Primarchs who are 'completely deleted from the Imperial Records' aren't going to be tied to the Blood Ravens. They're also not going to have been used as the basis for any further Foundings.

Kanluwen wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:1) The Thousand Sons theory could be ok..

It's a theory, and about as substantive at this point in time as the idea that trailer park inhabitants are being abducted by extraterrestrials to learn about humanity.

2) BUT: remember there are 2 Primarchs who are completely deleted from the Imperial Records. See lexanicum. Perheps one of them? Those 2 most be traitor, btw.

No. Those 2 Primarchs who are 'completely deleted from the Imperial Records' aren't going to be tied to the Blood Ravens. They're also not going to have been used as the basis for any further Foundings.

I've always figured the missing two were done for a reason....It let's people build whatever army they want to build. Mini war gaming is all about custom building an army to suit yourself, that's why you have unit options.

So, GW has wisely put in fluff holes to let you fill them to your hearts content.

Pretty much.

I've yet to see any reasonably convincing 'Lost Legions' though. They're usually hamfisted attempts at 'Mysterious Strangers of Mystery!', but eh.

Maniac_nmt wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:1) The Thousand Sons theory could be ok..

It's a theory, and about as substantive at this point in time as the idea that trailer park inhabitants are being abducted by extraterrestrials to learn about humanity.

2) BUT: remember there are 2 Primarchs who are completely deleted from the Imperial Records. See lexanicum. Perheps one of them? Those 2 most be traitor, btw.

No. Those 2 Primarchs who are 'completely deleted from the Imperial Records' aren't going to be tied to the Blood Ravens. They're also not going to have been used as the basis for any further Foundings.

I've always figured the missing two were done for a reason....It let's people build whatever army they want to build. Mini war gaming is all about custom building an army to suit yourself, that's why you have unit options.

So, GW has wisely put in fluff holes to let you fill them to your hearts content.

I think that was the case before the Horus Hersey series began. Now, it's been hinted that those two Legions are gone, and for apparently good reason.

I would suggest you read the other threads. I'm not going to reargue the points herre, but suffice it to say I don't agree with Kanluwen's characterization of the theory. I'd say it's the exact opposite.


It's possible that there is no link, but given what's been published it's more likeyl they are. Or at least that GW wants us to think they are.

Despite Kan's obsessive crusade to prove that Blood Ravens are in no way linked to the Thousand Sons, GW is going out of their way to make it seem like this is the case.

The previously mentioned story from AGE OF DARKNESS is STONGLY implying this connection, especially when all the other various hints are taken into account.

Like I have said before, it is too obvious.

GW likes conspiracies and half-truths. That's why I'm saying they're laying out stupidly obvious points that bludgeon you over the head--when if they and Relic ever finally decide to do the reveal, it comes to light that *gasp* they're in reality an Imperial Fists or White Scars Successor--it makes it all the more mindblowing.

I have to disagree.

The 'mystery' part was at their introduction.

IF GW is playing a 'bait and switch' here, it will not be perceived as 'mind-blowing', rather it will be perceived as "lazy cheap bs bait and switch".

If you say so.

I still say that the most prominent thing that everyone points to(the prophecy from 'A Thousand Sons') is so ridiculously vague that it's kind of silly to cite it as 'definitive proof'. Same with the part from Age of Darkness.

I still have yet to understand how you can say GW is laying out stupidly obvious points that bludgeon you over the head at the same time as arguing the hints are so ridiculously vague that it's silly to cite as definitive proof.

You can't have it both ways. Well at least in my opinion. GW is either beating us over the head with it (they are) or everyone is drawing silly conclusions from vague hints. It seems these are mutually exclusive positions to me.

I agree with your first position, they are making it blatantly obvious, but disagree that this means they are trying to pull something super sneaky out of left field. Alpharius is right. That wouldn't be mindblowing, it would just be weak.

If these hints are so ridiculously vague that they could mean anything, why is it that almost everyone jumps to the same conclusions as to what they mean? How many more threads of people's 'aha, Blood Ravens' moments do we need before we can drop the 'vague and ambiguous' argument?

odmiller wrote:I still have yet to understand how you can say GW is laying out stupidly obvious points that bludgeon you over the head at the same time as arguing the hints are so ridiculously vague that it's silly to cite as definitive proof.

You can't have it both ways. Well at least in my opinion. GW is either beating us over the head with it (they are) or everyone is drawing silly conclusions from vague hints. It seems these are mutually exclusive positions to me.

I agree with your first position, they are making it blatantly obvious, but disagree that this means they are trying to pull something super sneaky out of left field. Alpharius is right. That wouldn't be mindblowing, it would just be weak.

If these hints are so ridiculously vague that they could mean anything, why is it that almost everyone jumps to the same conclusions as to what they mean? How many more threads of people's 'aha, Blood Ravens' moments do we need before we can drop the 'vague and ambiguous' argument?

Things can be stupidly vague and obvious at the same time, Od.

Go to any fortune teller or psychic. Their 'predictions' will always be both vague and obvious. Things like 'You will meet someone new, very soon'.

Really? I'll meet someone new? My God, thank you for that stunning insight!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Od--guess what I just found and am typing up.

I don't know, but I'm looking forward to seeing.

As for the fortune telling analogy, it's a little off I think. The point of the fortune teller is to tell something that can mean anything to anyone, therefore they're always right.

The Blood Ravens prophecy means the same thing to almost everyone. That's very different.

And the hints in Rebirth and the others in Thousand Sons have nothing to do with Prophecies at all. They are just parts of the book.

The 'hint' in Rebirth was a literary device at the end where a raven's head emblazoned on his shoulderpad had the light reflected off of it giving it a reddish hue.

I'm gonna cite 'what I found' and give you a part from 'Knowledge is Power', White Dwarf 295(April 2004).

There is exactly one mention of the Thousand Sons, and it's not as any tie to the Founding of the Chapter.

Knowledge Is Power', Blood Ravens Index Astartes page 119 of April 2004's White Dwarf Issue #295. wrote:
In battle, the Blood Ravens destroy enemy units with utter ruthlessness and precision. The Chapter's battle plan never varies from initial concept to final execution. Such is the depth of planning and thoroughness that every eventuality is accounted for, thanks to their Librarians' uncanny ability to predict how their enemies will react. The Blood Ravens have in the past warned of or responded to enemy attacks or invasions well before most Imperial sources have even been aware of them. This fact has led some puritanical figures to make dark mentions of the tale of the fallen Primarch Magnus and his ultimate fate by claiming that his path to damnation began with such warnings.

That's from the heading 'Combat Doctrine'.

Knowledge Is Power', Blood Ravens Index Astartes pages 120-121 of April 2004's White Dwarf Issue #295. wrote:
The Blood Ravens' gene-seed is relatively stable, though the high proportion of Psykers in the Blood Ravens' ranks has resulted in their gene-seed tithe being tested on a more regular basis than most. Thus far, there has been little evidence of mutation and nothing that points to the gene-seed as the source of the Blood Ravens' disproportionate number of Psykers or the high level of power they exhibit.
There has been much speculation about which of the Founding Chapters the Blood Raven's gene-seed was derived from.[Kan Note--Shouldn't that be Founding Legions?] Both the Blood Angels and Raven Guard have been suggested, but these speculations are likely based simply on the similarity in names between the Chapters. Rumor has also persisted that the Blood Ravens may be derived from the Dark Angels gene-seed, but no facts have ever been presented to establish a definitive single source of the genetic material that makes up the Chapter. The fact that the Blood Ravens themselves have no record of the Chapter from which they descended implies that they could easily have been a Chapter created in anticipation of some long-defeated threat to the Imperium. The truth of the Blood Ravens' origin is the one piece of information the Blood Ravens seek above all others in their quest for knowledge.

That's the entirety of the 'Gene-Seed' article.

Now, I'm not saying it entirely overrides everything written since then--but it definitely pokes some holes in the Thousand Sons link, especially since you had stated that it made some very vague links that they've gone to since then.

I think someone also at one point made a reference to the name of the Blood Ravens' first Librarian-Master of the Chapter being the same as the Thousand Son at the end of Rebirth.
The Thousand Son who breathed 'Knowledge is Power' is named Arvida. The Blood Ravens' first Librarian-Master was named Azariah Vidya.

If we're going to disect that article, I'll dig it out. Because there's a lot more interesting stuff that I've mentioned before about the unaccountably high numbers and power of their Librarians, etc.

That they mention Magnus at all in there is frankly interesting in a loyalist chapter from a later founding. How many other traitor legions or Primarchs are mentioned?

Most people don't point to that article as anything other than laying out the basic framework of the mystery. It's stuff from the (6) 2 novels that fills in the details.

odmiller wrote:If we're going to disect that article, I'll dig it out. Because there's a lot more interesting stuff that I've mentioned before about the unaccountably high numbers and power of their Librarians, etc.

That they mention Magnus at all in there is frankly interesting in a loyalist chapter from a later founding. How many other traitor legions or Primarchs are mentioned?

Most people don't point to that article as anything other than laying out the basic framework of the mystery. It's stuff from the (6) 2 novels that fills in the details.

Seriously? Puritans point towards Magnus as a cautionary tale.

You know, like how people relate the allegory of Icarus(aka: Don't fly too high or the sun will burn you).

It laid out exactly no "basic framework of the mystery".

Seriously? Did you even read the entire article? Unexplained number of librarians? Unexplained level of power? Librarians in the command structure? Squads of them? Secret tower where those who can't control their ascendency go and are studied? Unknown primarch and search for knowledge.

That's exactly the framework of the mystery. Who are they? Why are they so psychically gifted?

It wouldn't be a mystery they could have been slowly revealing for 7 or 8 years if they stated it was the T Sons in the Chapter Approved.

As for the Magnus mention. It comes at the end of the section describing how they have an uncanny ability to predict threat to the imperium. It's not presented as a cautionary tale at all, it's presented as being eirily reminiscient of Magnus' behavior.

It's also ironic if the link proves to be true. Irony, another literary device.

All that being said, in a vacuum, the article proves nothing. It's a framework of mystery for a new Chapter of Spacemarines. It could mean anything, couldn't it. It's an interesting starting place for sure.

So, 4 Blood Raven Novels, 1 Horus Heresy Novel, and 1 Horus Heresy short story later we join the argument.

Not sure where to go from here. You seem to argue "too obvious and blatant" when it suits you, "too vague and ambiguous" when it doesn't. You can argue each individual point, but that doesn't change the picture GW has painted. They are linked.

We know that Goto was trying to tell us they were linked. Per your own response in another thread it was Goto that said it at one of the conventions.

We know GW knew this too, and have decided to continue to add hints in the Horus Heresy stories. They haven't gone down another track, they've gone in the same vein.

We obviously don't have all the pieces, but I think there's a line you quoted that will weigh heavily in the final explanation, "they could easily have been a Chapter created in anticipation of some long-defeated threat to the Imperium." I think it's going to come out that the T Sons geneseed is combined with a clean tithe of geneseed. This will cure the flesh change and explain why no taint is found in the geneseed. It'll also explain why they have such a high % of Librarians but not all Librarians. But that's all conjecture.

It should be noted that not all Thousand Sons were psykers.

There were plenty of schmoes in the legion up until Ahriman turned the vast majority of the legion into dustbunnies...

There were more than the average Legion, but again, the majority weren't powerful Psykers, or Psykers of any kind.

Ronin-Sage wrote:It should be noted that not all Thousand Sons were psykers.

Wrong.

All Thousand Sons were psykers.

Not all Thousand Sons had their powers manifest the same way, however. Some were able to create constructs using their minds, some were able to manifest psychic fire, some were able to effectively 'predict' via precognitive abilities, etc.

Only Magnus and a few others were able to manifest all of the various abilities at once.