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Hey,


At a local apocalypse game a player used a Land Raider Armored Spearhead from Apocalypse book with Blood Angels Land Raiders.

He Rolled One Deep Strike Roll and then placed the other 3 land raiders within 12" of the Command Vehicle without taking any deep strike rolls for any of them.

Each vehicle has to deep strike individually, as they are still seperate units, they just need to be deployed within x inches of the command tank.

Any thoughts or is there some special rule where 4 land raiders can deep strike off 1 roll and the others are placed wherever he wants within range of the command tank?


Thanks

As it's apocalypse, I can't think of any particular reason why he can't do this. Plus, it'd definitely be cool, as is the point of apocalypse.

My tuppence.

No rule allowing this, so no you cannot do so.

geza55 wrote:As it's apocalypse, I can't think of any particular reason why he can't do this. Plus, it'd definitely be cool, as is the point of apocalypse.

My tuppence.

He was just doing it to be cheesey and try to gain an edge (As a note, their team lost horribly). It wasn't a fun game for a cool story, it was one of the local cheesefest apocalypse tournaments. His defense to this was basically, "I dislike you use drop pods, so I tried to get away with this." to sum it up.

The Armoured Spearhead rules actually require them to be deployed within 6", not 12.

And no, they don't cover what to do if they Deep Strike, since Apocalypse was written before Codex: BA... But there is no rule treats them as a single unit, or over-rides the usual need to scatter them, so unless he was Deep Striking them within range of a Locator Beacon, they would have to scatter.

insaniak wrote:The Armoured Spearhead rules actually require them to be deployed within 6", not 12.

And no, they don't cover what to do if they Deep Strike, since Apocalypse was written before Codex: BA... But there is no rule treats them as a single unit, or over-rides the usual need to scatter them, so unless he was Deep Striking them within range of a Locator Beacon, they would have to scatter.

Yeah, I pointed them to the Blood Angels formation that mentions deep striking the land raiders and they all have to do so individually. The guy is just a loser who tries to cheat, so many of them are around here.

IdentifyZero wrote:

geza55 wrote:As it's apocalypse, I can't think of any particular reason why he can't do this. Plus, it'd definitely be cool, as is the point of apocalypse.

My tuppence.

He was just doing it to be cheesey and try to gain an edge (As a note, their team lost horribly). It wasn't a fun game for a cool story, it was one of the local cheesefest apocalypse tournaments. His defense to this was basically, "I dislike you use drop pods, so I tried to get away with this." to sum it up.

The words, "Apocalypse" and "tournament" have no place being spoken in the same breath.

If they have to be "deployed" within 6" of one another, then it would stand to reason that they would need to deepstrike within 6" of one another, no?

NuggzTheNinja wrote:The words, "Apocalypse" and "tournament" have no place being spoken in the same breath.

There is no reason that Apocalypse can't work just as well fro tournaments as regular 40K... it just requires a TO who is a little more on the ball.

Hell, the Apocalypse rules even suggest having some sort of adjudicator run the game. So if anything, it's better suited to tournament play

insaniak wrote:The Armoured Spearhead rules actually require them to be deployed within 6", not 12.

And no, they don't cover what to do if they Deep Strike, since Apocalypse was written before Codex: BA... But there is no rule treats them as a single unit, or over-rides the usual need to scatter them, so unless he was Deep Striking them within range of a Locator Beacon, they would have to scatter.

I know in Spearhead games, units must deploy as one unit. Aka, deploy using the normal Deepstrike rules for one unit.
It works wonders for Soul Grinders.

Apocalypse also requires detachments to deploy at the same time... but not as a single unit. They're a single Detachment, so they have to deploy at the same time... but they're separate units.

insaniak wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:The words, "Apocalypse" and "tournament" have no place being spoken in the same breath.

There is no reason that Apocalypse can't work just as well fro tournaments as regular 40K... it just requires a TO who is a little more on the ball.

Hell, the Apocalypse rules even suggest having some sort of adjudicator run the game. So if anything, it's better suited to tournament play

Fair enough! All I know is, when people at the FLGS play Apocalypse, they usually get through 1 or 2 turns in about 8 hours. Bah, who needs timed events!?

You bought it in a detachment, they come in as a detachemnt. You use the rules of the detachment you bought it for.

I would say your opponent is not cheating or wrong.

I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

IF YOUR opponenet buys the formations and puts his BA land Raiders into, HE ONLY ROLLS FOR THE COMMAND TANK!!!!!. Than he place other models within 6 inches of the command tank. They would later on act independently. They are in a formation NOT A SQUAD!!!. If opponent wants the benefits the formation gives, HE MUST abide by the formation's TERMS AND CONDITIONS.

The detachment rule supercedes the regular rules because THAT is what the detachment is for. Since you are playing an Apoc game, you use the Apoc rules in Conjuction to your Main rule book and Codex. Even as the Apoc is listed as an expansion, bottom line, you are playing the Apoc rules.

One such example is the Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force. If you have say, 30 drop pods and you designate the following, 2 Tac Squads, 1 Asslt. Squad, 1 Devastator, AND the command pod (1 Captain and Command Squad) which means 4 Drop Pods 1 one skyhammer element, not including the Command Pod.

So, according to the Apoc Datasheet, I have Primus, Secundus and Tertius. Each have 4 Drop Pods, bringing the total to 12 Drop pods. INCLUDING the command Pod, I will have 13 drop pods. I roll for each element OR I could just let them arrive via the Drop Pod rules.

Another Example is the Deathknell Assualt force. After the placing of the Deathknell missle AFTER arriving from strategic reserves, ALL UNITS/ ELEMENTS WITHIN using this formation IMMEDIATELY ARRIVE. Formation is around is 5+ Termi Squads and 1+ Dread.

Citing another Prime example, but closer to your problem, is the First Company Formation. IF, the company is held in reserve, THE ENTIRE COMPANY ARRIVES IN TURN 1 according to its' special rule.

wallacethe5 wrote:IF YOUR opponenet buys the formations and puts his BA land Raiders into, HE ONLY ROLLS FOR THE COMMAND TANK!!!!!.

Why?

They are not a single unit, as you yourself said. Nothing in the detachment rules over-rides the normal requirement to scatter a unit when you Deep Strike it.

wallacethe5 wrote:You bought it in a detachment, they come in as a detachemnt. You use the rules of the detachment you bought it for.

I would say your opponent is not cheating or wrong.

I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

IF YOUR opponenet buys the formations and puts his BA land Raiders into, HE ONLY ROLLS FOR THE COMMAND TANK!!!!!. Than he place other models within 6 inches of the command tank. They would later on act independently. They are in a formation NOT A SQUAD!!!. If opponent wants the benefits the formation gives, HE MUST abide by the formation's TERMS AND CONDITIONS.

The detachment rule supercedes the regular rules because THAT is what the detachment is for. Since you are playing an Apoc game, you use the Apoc rules in Conjuction to your Main rule book and Codex. Even as the Apoc is listed as an expansion, bottom line, you are playing the Apoc rules.

One such example is the Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force. If you have say, 30 drop pods and you designate the following, 2 Tac Squads, 1 Asslt. Squad, 1 Devastator, AND the command pod (1 Captain and Command Squad) which means 4 Drop Pods 1 one skyhammer element, not including the Command Pod.

So, according to the Apoc Datasheet, I have Primus, Secundus and Tertius. Each have 4 Drop Pods, bringing the total to 12 Drop pods. INCLUDING the command Pod, I will have 13 drop pods. I roll for each element OR I could just let them arrive via the Drop Pod rules.

Another Example is the Deathknell Assualt force. After the placing of the Deathknell missle AFTER arriving from strategic reserves, ALL UNITS/ ELEMENTS WITHIN using this formation IMMEDIATELY ARRIVE. Formation is around is 5+ Termi Squads and 1+ Dread.

Citing another Prime example, but closer to your problem, is the First Company Formation. IF, the company is held in reserve, THE ENTIRE COMPANY ARRIVES IN TURN 1 according to its' special rule.

]

You are entirely wrong, if you drop a full company in drop pod formation for example, you still need to roll for each drop pod to arrive. You don't roll for one and then get to place them all unless they have a special rule.

If you read the rules for the relavant formation, you would see:

Strike Force: All tanks in the spearhead must be deployed within 6" of the command tank, or, if coming on from reserve, the must enter the table within 6" of the point entered by the command tank.

Even the Blood Angels formation (Which he didn't use) states that they must roll for deep strike as normal. There is no magical one deep strike roll for 3+ land raiders and then place them all however you like. That would also be very disadvantageous for example, if you scattered 1 tank and got a deep strike mishap and they were destroyed; you don't lose your 1000 points of units; you lose 1.

Unless the formation states, specifically, that you make a single deep strike scatter role or has some special type of arrival in the rules entry for the relavant formation, they follow normal deployment rules.

If the BA player buys the Spearhead formation, he will be following the Apoc rules in regards using that formation.

I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

If he places the total of 6 Land Raiders under the Blood Angels chapter, he MUST designated a Command Tank.

The Formation the BA player is using the Armoured Spearhead. Cost of the formation + the cost of tanks, consists of 3+ LR and ONE designated as command tank. The only SPECIAL rules for it is the Strike Force which says the spearhead must be deployed within 6 inches of the command tank, OR IF coming on from reserve, they must enter the table within 6 inches of the point entered by the command tank.

I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

When the BA buy this formation, the units arrive in a battle formation are deployed at the same time. The ruling for BA states their land raider can arrive by deep strike, THE command tank comes in first.

So even though you have to roll for scatter, you MUST place the models WITHIN THE TERMS AND REQUIREMENTS OF THE FORMATION. So, if the formation says 6 inches, of the point of entry of the command tank, you do so. BA player must follow the rules of the formation in regards to point of entry. You buy the formation, you are bound by the laws of the formation.


Following RAW, based upon this quote, "but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." This "unless specified otherwise" comes after the deployment and arrival of the formation. It is specificly written in this manner. This section of the rule clears up any misconceptions that the formation is not squad unless specified.

wallacethe5 wrote:If the BA player buys the Spearhead formation, he will be following the Apoc rules in regards using that formation.

I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

If he places the total of 6 Land Raiders under the Blood Angels chapter, he MUST designated a Command Tank.

The Formation the BA player is using the Armoured Spearhead. Cost of the formation + the cost of tanks, consists of 3+ LR and ONE designated as command tank. The only SPECIAL rules for it is the Strike Force which says the spearhead must be deployed within 6 inches of the command tank, OR IF coming on from reserve, they must enter the table within 6 inches of the point entered by the command tank.

I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

When the BA buy this formation, the units arrive in a battle formation are deployed at the same time. The ruling for BA states their land raider can arrive by deep strike, THE command tank comes in first.

So even though you have to roll for scatter, you MUST place the models WITHIN THE TERMS AND REQUIREMENTS OF THE FORMATION. So, if the formation says 6 inches, of the point of entry of the command tank, you do so. BA player must follow the rules of the formation in regards to point of entry. You buy the formation, you are bound by the laws of the formation.


Following RAW, based upon this quote, "but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." This "unless specified otherwise" comes after the deployment and arrival of the formation. It is specificly written in this manner. This section of the rule clears up any misconceptions that the formation is not squad unless specified.

We are aware of that, he must place the other Tanks within the 6" of the command tank and still take his deep strike rolls. Deep Strike scatter can take him more than 6" from the command tank, but he purposely cannot deploy them more then 6" away. In this case, it would be no more than 6" from where the command tank entered according to the reserve part of the strike force rules for the Armored Spearhead.

So yes, it works like so:

Land Raider A (Command) is deployed. He rolls scatter.
Land Raider B must then be deployed within 6" of the point Land Raider A deployed and roll scatter.
Land Raider c must then be deployed within 6" of the point Land Raider A deployed and roll scatter.

There is no special rule that allows you to make a single scatter roll for the entire unit. They still follow the normal rules for deployment, whether starting on the table or arriving from reserves.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1700035a_NEW_Blood_Angels_-_Lucifer_Task_Force.pdf

This is the Blood Angels datasheet and it references deep striking the formation. (Closest thing to covering this kind of situation).

They can deep strike, but they do not get any special rules or bonus in regards to deep striking.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the other hand, if they were a SQUADRON of vehicles. They could do the deep strike as one and line up in a circle around the command tank.

IdentifyZero wrote:

wallacethe5 wrote:You bought it in a detachment, they come in as a detachemnt. You use the rules of the detachment you bought it for.

I would say your opponent is not cheating or wrong.

I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

IF YOUR opponenet buys the formations and puts his BA land Raiders into, HE ONLY ROLLS FOR THE COMMAND TANK!!!!!. Than he place other models within 6 inches of the command tank. They would later on act independently. They are in a formation NOT A SQUAD!!!. If opponent wants the benefits the formation gives, HE MUST abide by the formation's TERMS AND CONDITIONS.

The detachment rule supercedes the regular rules because THAT is what the detachment is for. Since you are playing an Apoc game, you use the Apoc rules in Conjuction to your Main rule book and Codex. Even as the Apoc is listed as an expansion, bottom line, you are playing the Apoc rules.

One such example is the Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force. If you have say, 30 drop pods and you designate the following, 2 Tac Squads, 1 Asslt. Squad, 1 Devastator, AND the command pod (1 Captain and Command Squad) which means 4 Drop Pods 1 one skyhammer element, not including the Command Pod.

So, according to the Apoc Datasheet, I have Primus, Secundus and Tertius. Each have 4 Drop Pods, bringing the total to 12 Drop pods. INCLUDING the command Pod, I will have 13 drop pods. I roll for each element OR I could just let them arrive via the Drop Pod rules.

Another Example is the Deathknell Assualt force. After the placing of the Deathknell missle AFTER arriving from strategic reserves, ALL UNITS/ ELEMENTS WITHIN using this formation IMMEDIATELY ARRIVE. Formation is around is 5+ Termi Squads and 1+ Dread.

Citing another Prime example, but closer to your problem, is the First Company Formation. IF, the company is held in reserve, THE ENTIRE COMPANY ARRIVES IN TURN 1 according to its' special rule.

]

You are entirely wrong, if you drop a full company in drop pod formation for example, you still need to roll for each drop pod to arrive. You don't roll for one and then get to place them all unless they have a special rule.

If you read the rules for the relavant formation, you would see:

Strike Force: All tanks in the spearhead must be deployed within 6" of the command tank, or, if coming on from reserve, the must enter the table within 6" of the point entered by the command tank.

Even the Blood Angels formation (Which he didn't use) states that they must roll for deep strike as normal. There is no magical one deep strike roll for 3+ land raiders and then place them all however you like. That would also be very disadvantageous for example, if you scattered 1 tank and got a deep strike mishap and they were destroyed; you don't lose your 1000 points of units; you lose 1.

Unless the formation states, specifically, that you make a single deep strike scatter role or has some special type of arrival in the rules entry for the relavant formation, they follow normal deployment rules.

In regards to deployemnt, I must protest your arguement. Did you even read the this relevent page?

I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

If he buys the formation and places his units in them, they arrive as stated in this rule. Unless some ruling within the formation states otherwise. If you play Apoc formations, you have to follow the formation rules and the Apoc standard rules as well. Even as your opponents codex may say otherwise, by RAI, his codex rules will take the Apoc formation rules and terms of deployment. The only butthurt here is the BA opponents. The BA is right in both RAI and RAW. If you play an expansion Game, you make use of two MAIN rule books, in conjuction to your codex. Which means, you follow the expansion rules in regards to deployment. In terms of deploying formations, the expansion ruleset you are playing supercedes your codex rules IF you use THE formations. When you play Apoc, you use the Apoc main rules. You use the formations, you use the Apoc rules in regards to the formation.

wallacethe5 wrote:I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

Nothing in that quote says to ignore the normal rules for scattering Deep Striking units.

Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

When the BA buy this formation, the units arrive in a battle formation are deployed at the same time. The ruling for BA states their land raider can arrive by deep strike, THE command tank comes in first.

So even though you have to roll for scatter, you MUST place the models WITHIN THE TERMS AND REQUIREMENTS OF THE FORMATION. So, if the formation says 6 inches, of the point of entry of the command tank, you do so. BA player must follow the rules of the formation in regards to point of entry. You buy the formation, you are bound by the laws of the formation.

Right. So you place the tanks each within 6" of the command tank... and then roll scatter, because the Apocalypse rules never tell you not to do so.

wallacethe5 wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:

wallacethe5 wrote:You bought it in a detachment, they come in as a detachemnt. You use the rules of the detachment you bought it for.

I would say your opponent is not cheating or wrong.

I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

IF YOUR opponenet buys the formations and puts his BA land Raiders into, HE ONLY ROLLS FOR THE COMMAND TANK!!!!!. Than he place other models within 6 inches of the command tank. They would later on act independently. They are in a formation NOT A SQUAD!!!. If opponent wants the benefits the formation gives, HE MUST abide by the formation's TERMS AND CONDITIONS.

The detachment rule supercedes the regular rules because THAT is what the detachment is for. Since you are playing an Apoc game, you use the Apoc rules in Conjuction to your Main rule book and Codex. Even as the Apoc is listed as an expansion, bottom line, you are playing the Apoc rules.

One such example is the Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force. If you have say, 30 drop pods and you designate the following, 2 Tac Squads, 1 Asslt. Squad, 1 Devastator, AND the command pod (1 Captain and Command Squad) which means 4 Drop Pods 1 one skyhammer element, not including the Command Pod.

So, according to the Apoc Datasheet, I have Primus, Secundus and Tertius. Each have 4 Drop Pods, bringing the total to 12 Drop pods. INCLUDING the command Pod, I will have 13 drop pods. I roll for each element OR I could just let them arrive via the Drop Pod rules.

Another Example is the Deathknell Assualt force. After the placing of the Deathknell missle AFTER arriving from strategic reserves, ALL UNITS/ ELEMENTS WITHIN using this formation IMMEDIATELY ARRIVE. Formation is around is 5+ Termi Squads and 1+ Dread.

Citing another Prime example, but closer to your problem, is the First Company Formation. IF, the company is held in reserve, THE ENTIRE COMPANY ARRIVES IN TURN 1 according to its' special rule.

]

You are entirely wrong, if you drop a full company in drop pod formation for example, you still need to roll for each drop pod to arrive. You don't roll for one and then get to place them all unless they have a special rule.

If you read the rules for the relavant formation, you would see:

Strike Force: All tanks in the spearhead must be deployed within 6" of the command tank, or, if coming on from reserve, the must enter the table within 6" of the point entered by the command tank.

Even the Blood Angels formation (Which he didn't use) states that they must roll for deep strike as normal. There is no magical one deep strike roll for 3+ land raiders and then place them all however you like. That would also be very disadvantageous for example, if you scattered 1 tank and got a deep strike mishap and they were destroyed; you don't lose your 1000 points of units; you lose 1.

Unless the formation states, specifically, that you make a single deep strike scatter role or has some special type of arrival in the rules entry for the relavant formation, they follow normal deployment rules.

In regards to deployemnt, I must protest your arguement. Did you even read the this relevent page?

I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

If he buys the formation and places his units in them, they arrive as stated in this rule. Unless some ruling within the formation states otherwise. If you play Apoc formations, you have to follow the formation rules and the Apoc standard rules as well. Even as your opponents codex may say otherwise, by RAI, his codex rules will take the Apoc formation rules and terms of deployment. The only butthurt here is the BA opponents. The BA is right in both RAI and RAW. If you play an expansion Game, you make use of two MAIN rule books, in conjuction to your codex. Which means, you follow the expansion rules in regards to deployment. In terms of deploying formations, the expansion ruleset you are playing supercedes your codex rules IF you use THE formations. When you play Apoc, you use the Apoc main rules. You use the formations, you use the Apoc rules in regards to the formation.

Nobody is arguing anything you brought up. However, there is nothing that supercedes the normal deep strike rules mentioned within an Armored Spearhead formation. Even the relevant Blood Angels formations, which take deep strike into account do not give a special rule where everything deep strikes at once.

Would you like to see a Hextad of Ancients (6 Dreadnoughts) in Lucius Drop Pods, all deploy at once via a single scatter roll? I play that formation and I would not allow nonsense like that to happen, because it's not the way the rules work.

They still follow the normal deep strike rules, despite being a formation.

IdentifyZero wrote:

wallacethe5 wrote:If the BA player buys the Spearhead formation, he will be following the Apoc rules in regards using that formation.

I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

If he places the total of 6 Land Raiders under the Blood Angels chapter, he MUST designated a Command Tank.

The Formation the BA player is using the Armoured Spearhead. Cost of the formation + the cost of tanks, consists of 3+ LR and ONE designated as command tank. The only SPECIAL rules for it is the Strike Force which says the spearhead must be deployed within 6 inches of the command tank, OR IF coming on from reserve, they must enter the table within 6 inches of the point entered by the command tank.

I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

When the BA buy this formation, the units arrive in a battle formation are deployed at the same time. The ruling for BA states their land raider can arrive by deep strike, THE command tank comes in first.

So even though you have to roll for scatter, you MUST place the models WITHIN THE TERMS AND REQUIREMENTS OF THE FORMATION. So, if the formation says 6 inches, of the point of entry of the command tank, you do so. BA player must follow the rules of the formation in regards to point of entry. You buy the formation, you are bound by the laws of the formation.


Following RAW, based upon this quote, "but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." This "unless specified otherwise" comes after the deployment and arrival of the formation. It is specificly written in this manner. This section of the rule clears up any misconceptions that the formation is not squad unless specified.

We are aware of that, he must place the other Tanks within the 6" of the command tank and still take his deep strike rolls. Deep Strike scatter can take him more than 6" from the command tank, but he purposely cannot deploy them more then 6" away. In this case, it would be no more than 6" from where the command tank entered according to the reserve part of the strike force rules for the Armored Spearhead.

So yes, it works like so:

Land Raider A (Command) is deployed. He rolls scatter.
Land Raider B must then be deployed within 6" of the point Land Raider A deployed and roll scatter.
Land Raider c must then be deployed within 6" of the point Land Raider A deployed and roll scatter.

There is no special rule that allows you to make a single scatter roll for the entire unit. They still follow the normal rules for deployment, whether starting on the table or arriving from reserves.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1700035a_NEW_Blood_Angels_-_Lucifer_Task_Force.pdf

This is the Blood Angels datasheet and it references deep striking the formation. (Closest thing to covering this kind of situation).

They can deep strike, but they do not get any special rules or bonus in regards to deep striking.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the other hand, if they were a SQUADRON of vehicles. They could do the deep strike as one and line up in a circle around the command tank.

Pleae take note:I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

The formation the BA player is using is Armoured Spearhead. NOT lucifer Task Force. Unless the author of this article wrote the title wrongly.

Following armoured Spearhead, I have to follow these restrcitions. YES, I MAY SCATTER, BUT I must be within 6 inches of my command tank according to the FORMATION SPECIAL RULES of STRIKE FORCE. This is a benefit the BA will and shall CLAIM by RAW and RAI, no opponent may say otherwise.

AS STATED HERE::I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

BA may scatter, but BA must be within the ruling of the special rule STATED BY THE FORMATION. He paid the points for it, BA has the right to claim this benefit just as the rule has been written for Apoc Formations and also as intended, but important;y, it is ALREADY RAW.

Here are some examples of Datasheet with Deep Strike Referenced:


http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180071_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_Terminator_Titanhammer_Squads.pdf

Desperate Measures: Titanhammer Squads may never be
deployed on table and will always enter play from Strategic
Reserve. The targets of Titanhammer Squads are so large
that they themselves can be used as teleport coordinates. As
a result, Titanhammer Squads will only scatter D6 inches
when they Deep Strike.

It mentions they only scatter D6, otherwise? They use normal rules.

Another example:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1521013a_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_Vengeance_Task_Force.pdf

Teleport Assault: If arriving via deep strike, units from the Vengeance
Task Force can re-roll the scatter dice.

^ Do you like the above text, 'UNITS' indicating, that each unit, still scatters separately.

Also the STRIKE FORCE RULE:

Strike Force: Each unit in the Vengeance Task Force must be deployed
within 6" of another unit in the formation. If coming on from reserve,
they must enter the table within 6" of the point entered by another unit
from the Vengeance Task Force. If deep striking, they must aim to arrive
within 6" of another unit from the Vengeance Task Force.

Repeating the relevant rule twice in every post won't make it suddenly mean what you're trying to twist it into meaning.

You deploy the tanks within 6" of the command tank, yes. That doesn't mean they don't subsequently scatter as normal, because the rule doesn't say not to, no matter how many times you quote it.

wallacethe5 wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:

wallacethe5 wrote:If the BA player buys the Spearhead formation, he will be following the Apoc rules in regards using that formation.

I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

If he places the total of 6 Land Raiders under the Blood Angels chapter, he MUST designated a Command Tank.

The Formation the BA player is using the Armoured Spearhead. Cost of the formation + the cost of tanks, consists of 3+ LR and ONE designated as command tank. The only SPECIAL rules for it is the Strike Force which says the spearhead must be deployed within 6 inches of the command tank, OR IF coming on from reserve, they must enter the table within 6 inches of the point entered by the command tank.

I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

When the BA buy this formation, the units arrive in a battle formation are deployed at the same time. The ruling for BA states their land raider can arrive by deep strike, THE command tank comes in first.

So even though you have to roll for scatter, you MUST place the models WITHIN THE TERMS AND REQUIREMENTS OF THE FORMATION. So, if the formation says 6 inches, of the point of entry of the command tank, you do so. BA player must follow the rules of the formation in regards to point of entry. You buy the formation, you are bound by the laws of the formation.


Following RAW, based upon this quote, "but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." This "unless specified otherwise" comes after the deployment and arrival of the formation. It is specificly written in this manner. This section of the rule clears up any misconceptions that the formation is not squad unless specified.

We are aware of that, he must place the other Tanks within the 6" of the command tank and still take his deep strike rolls. Deep Strike scatter can take him more than 6" from the command tank, but he purposely cannot deploy them more then 6" away. In this case, it would be no more than 6" from where the command tank entered according to the reserve part of the strike force rules for the Armored Spearhead.

So yes, it works like so:

Land Raider A (Command) is deployed. He rolls scatter.
Land Raider B must then be deployed within 6" of the point Land Raider A deployed and roll scatter.
Land Raider c must then be deployed within 6" of the point Land Raider A deployed and roll scatter.

There is no special rule that allows you to make a single scatter roll for the entire unit. They still follow the normal rules for deployment, whether starting on the table or arriving from reserves.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1700035a_NEW_Blood_Angels_-_Lucifer_Task_Force.pdf

This is the Blood Angels datasheet and it references deep striking the formation. (Closest thing to covering this kind of situation).

They can deep strike, but they do not get any special rules or bonus in regards to deep striking.




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On the other hand, if they were a SQUADRON of vehicles. They could do the deep strike as one and line up in a circle around the command tank.

Pleae take note:I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

The formation the BA player is using is Armoured Spearhead. NOT lucifer Task Force. Unless the author of this article wrote the title wrongly.

Following armoured Spearhead, I have to follow these restrcitions. YES, I MAY SCATTER, BUT I must be within 6 inches of my command tank according to the FORMATION SPECIAL RULES of STRIKE FORCE. This is a benefit the BA will and shall CLAIM by RAW and RAI, no opponent may say otherwise.

AS STATED HERE::I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

BA may scatter, but BA must be within the ruling of the special rule STATED BY THE FORMATION. He paid the points for it, BA has the right to claim this benefit just as the rule has been written for Apoc Formations and also as intended, but important;y, it is ALREADY RAW.

FYI, you are making it very difficult to not resort to name-calling.

There is nothing that says they do not follow normal deep strike rules when arriving via formation. In fact, all the formations with deep strike specific rules, reinforce the fact, that each unit in the formation still scatters individually; they just must try to deploy within the allotted distance from the command unit.

IdentifyZero wrote:

wallacethe5 wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:

wallacethe5 wrote:You bought it in a detachment, they come in as a detachemnt. You use the rules of the detachment you bought it for.

I would say your opponent is not cheating or wrong.

I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

IF YOUR opponenet buys the formations and puts his BA land Raiders into, HE ONLY ROLLS FOR THE COMMAND TANK!!!!!. Than he place other models within 6 inches of the command tank. They would later on act independently. They are in a formation NOT A SQUAD!!!. If opponent wants the benefits the formation gives, HE MUST abide by the formation's TERMS AND CONDITIONS.

The detachment rule supercedes the regular rules because THAT is what the detachment is for. Since you are playing an Apoc game, you use the Apoc rules in Conjuction to your Main rule book and Codex. Even as the Apoc is listed as an expansion, bottom line, you are playing the Apoc rules.

One such example is the Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force. If you have say, 30 drop pods and you designate the following, 2 Tac Squads, 1 Asslt. Squad, 1 Devastator, AND the command pod (1 Captain and Command Squad) which means 4 Drop Pods 1 one skyhammer element, not including the Command Pod.

So, according to the Apoc Datasheet, I have Primus, Secundus and Tertius. Each have 4 Drop Pods, bringing the total to 12 Drop pods. INCLUDING the command Pod, I will have 13 drop pods. I roll for each element OR I could just let them arrive via the Drop Pod rules.

Another Example is the Deathknell Assualt force. After the placing of the Deathknell missle AFTER arriving from strategic reserves, ALL UNITS/ ELEMENTS WITHIN using this formation IMMEDIATELY ARRIVE. Formation is around is 5+ Termi Squads and 1+ Dread.

Citing another Prime example, but closer to your problem, is the First Company Formation. IF, the company is held in reserve, THE ENTIRE COMPANY ARRIVES IN TURN 1 according to its' special rule.

]

You are entirely wrong, if you drop a full company in drop pod formation for example, you still need to roll for each drop pod to arrive. You don't roll for one and then get to place them all unless they have a special rule.

If you read the rules for the relavant formation, you would see:

Strike Force: All tanks in the spearhead must be deployed within 6" of the command tank, or, if coming on from reserve, the must enter the table within 6" of the point entered by the command tank.

Even the Blood Angels formation (Which he didn't use) states that they must roll for deep strike as normal. There is no magical one deep strike roll for 3+ land raiders and then place them all however you like. That would also be very disadvantageous for example, if you scattered 1 tank and got a deep strike mishap and they were destroyed; you don't lose your 1000 points of units; you lose 1.

Unless the formation states, specifically, that you make a single deep strike scatter role or has some special type of arrival in the rules entry for the relavant formation, they follow normal deployment rules.

In regards to deployemnt, I must protest your arguement. Did you even read the this relevent page?

I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

If he buys the formation and places his units in them, they arrive as stated in this rule. Unless some ruling within the formation states otherwise. If you play Apoc formations, you have to follow the formation rules and the Apoc standard rules as well. Even as your opponents codex may say otherwise, by RAI, his codex rules will take the Apoc formation rules and terms of deployment. The only butthurt here is the BA opponents. The BA is right in both RAI and RAW. If you play an expansion Game, you make use of two MAIN rule books, in conjuction to your codex. Which means, you follow the expansion rules in regards to deployment. In terms of deploying formations, the expansion ruleset you are playing supercedes your codex rules IF you use THE formations. When you play Apoc, you use the Apoc main rules. You use the formations, you use the Apoc rules in regards to the formation.

Nobody is arguing anything you brought up. However, there is nothing that supercedes the normal deep strike rules mentioned within an Armored Spearhead formation. Even the relevant Blood Angels formations, which take deep strike into account do not give a special rule where everything deep strikes at once.

Would you like to see a Hextad of Ancients (6 Dreadnoughts) in Lucius Drop Pods, all deploy at once via a single scatter roll? I play that formation and I would not allow nonsense like that to happen, because it's not the way the rules work.

They still follow the normal deep strike rules, despite being a formation.

You are allowed to based on this ruling. You have a command pod. You only roll for the leader of your formation because that is the entry point for your formation. Your formation only enter play following your leader OR as the SPECIAL rule for the formation has stated. But you must always for this because yoi are using a battle formation. If you place units within the battle formation, you HAVE to follow this rule.
I QUOTE THE APOC RULE BOOK:
"Note that the units bought together to form a battle formation are deployed simultaneously when the formation is deployed, but than move and fight independently, unless specified otherwise." Page 100, Under the BATTLE FORMATION, Apocalypse Rule book.

You may follow the deep stike rules all you want, but you have to come in together as stated.

insaniak wrote:Repeating the relevant rule twice in every post won't make it suddenly mean what you're trying to twist it into meaning.

You deploy the tanks within 6" of the command tank, yes. That doesn't mean they don't subsequently scatter as normal, because the rule doesn't say not to, no matter how many times you quote it.

I've quoted and linked several formations using Deep Strike for him Insaniak to try and clarify his own confusion (as maybe this player at this game was). I'm getting really annoyed with the same wall of text from him every 2min.


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I'm not going to waste time quoting the nonsense above my post.

There is nothing in the rules that say you circumvent the deep strike rules as normal.

Anyways, according to what you are saying, they are deploying as a squadron and would therefore line up in a concentric circle around the command tank. (Wow, that would be beneficial in apocalypse, one Str-D template hitting entire formations at the same time).

Even more beneficial, is when you deep strike mishap and don't just lose 1 unit, but your entire formation.

Whether in regards to negatives or benefits, it doesn't make sense to have a single deep strike roll. The rules as shown, clearly, in formations designed with deep strike in mind demonstrate this. If you like Wallace, I can continue to quote the rules from relavant formations involving deep strike over and over. Try reading them instead of just posting.

insaniak wrote:Repeating the relevant rule twice in every post won't make it suddenly mean what you're trying to twist it into meaning.

You deploy the tanks within 6" of the command tank, yes. That doesn't mean they don't subsequently scatter as normal, because the rule doesn't say not to, no matter how many times you quote it.

ARGH!!!! Of course you scatter as normal, but you must be within the 6 inch radius of the Command tank. That is the benefit the owning player of the formation CLAIMS as specificly written by the formation rules for Apoc. You are no longer playing standard games any more, you JOIN and follow the rules set in by Apoc and the MAIN RULE book. You follow deep strike guidelines, yes correct, BUT you claim the benefit the Apoc formation gives you by only scatter to the minimum of the command tank which is 6 inches, but you still follow the deep strike guidelines.

I am not twisting any rules. It is as stated, formations come in together.if you don't like it, don't play it. Read page 100 in full. Not just to the OP, but to everyone here. READ PAGE 100 of the Apoc book. THE FULL PAGE.


AND ALSO PAGE 90.

wallacethe5 wrote:

insaniak wrote:Repeating the relevant rule twice in every post won't make it suddenly mean what you're trying to twist it into meaning.

You deploy the tanks within 6" of the command tank, yes. That doesn't mean they don't subsequently scatter as normal, because the rule doesn't say not to, no matter how many times you quote it.

ARGH!!!! Of course you scatter as normal, but you must be within the 6 inch radius of the Command tank. That is the benefit the owning player of the formation CLAIMS as specificly written by the formation rules for Apoc. You are no longer playing standard games any more, you JOIN and follow the rules set in by Apoc and the MAIN RULE book. You follow deep strike guidelines, yes correct, BUT you claim the benefit the Apoc formation gives you by only scatter to the minimum of the command tank which is 6 inches, but you still follow the deep strike guidelines.

I am not twisting any rules. It is as stated, formations come in together.if you don't like it, don't play it. Read page 100 in full. Not just to the OP, but to everyone here. READ PAGE 100 of the Apoc book. THE FULL PAGE.

How about you start reading the stuff people are posting and stop repeating yourself.

Even the formation states, 'of, if, coming on from reserve, they must enter the table within 6" of the point entered by the command tank'.

They must deploy within 6" of the point the command tank originally deep striked & scattered from, they must then roll to deep strike and scatter as normal for each tank, using that initial point and a 6" guideline as where they can choose for deployment.

This works the same way for formations with deep strike, like the above I posted, read them. I won't do it in caps like you, but read them.

This may get me mod attention, but, I imagine you would not be greeted warmly in a debate if you simply repeated yourself over and over and ignored all other parties. Forget a debate, any discussion. You just ignore everything posted and continously say the same thing. Please, read the other stuff posted and the rules on the formations I posted, whether the copied info or read the datasheet.

and yes... they can scatter out of range of the command tank. If the command tank scattered 11" from it's original position, the other tanks will have to follow the rules as stated to deploy and get within 6" of the command tank to gain strike force benefits.


P.S. I like how you have subtly changed your position to they deep strike, but cannot scatter more than 6" from the command tank.

IdentifyZero wrote:

wallacethe5 wrote:

insaniak wrote:Repeating the relevant rule twice in every post won't make it suddenly mean what you're trying to twist it into meaning.

You deploy the tanks within 6" of the command tank, yes. That doesn't mean they don't subsequently scatter as normal, because the rule doesn't say not to, no matter how many times you quote it.

ARGH!!!! Of course you scatter as normal, but you must be within the 6 inch radius of the Command tank. That is the benefit the owning player of the formation CLAIMS as specificly written by the formation rules for Apoc. You are no longer playing standard games any more, you JOIN and follow the rules set in by Apoc and the MAIN RULE book. You follow deep strike guidelines, yes correct, BUT you claim the benefit the Apoc formation gives you by only scatter to the minimum of the command tank which is 6 inches, but you still follow the deep strike guidelines.

I am not twisting any rules. It is as stated, formations come in together.if you don't like it, don't play it. Read page 100 in full. Not just to the OP, but to everyone here. READ PAGE 100 of the Apoc book. THE FULL PAGE.

How about you start reading the stuff people are posting and stop repeating yourself.

Even the formation states, 'of, if, coming on from reserve, they must enter the table within 6" of the point entered by the command tank'.

They must deploy within 6" of the point the command tank originally deep striked & scattered from, they must then roll to deep strike and scatter as normal for each tank, using that initial point and a 6" guideline as where they can choose for deployment.

This works the same way for formations with deep strike, like the above I posted, read them. I won't do it in caps like you, but read them.

This may get me mod attention, but, I imagine you would be punched in the face in real life if your tactic for a debate is to repeat yourself over and over and ignore the opposing party.

and yes... they can scatter out of range of the command tank. If the command tank scattered 11" from it's original position, the other tanks will have to follow the rules as stated to deploy and get within 6" of the command tank to gain strike force benefits.


P.S. I like how you have subtly changed your position to they deep strike, but cannot scatter more than 6" from the command tank.

BULL, BULL BULLL...... I NEVER SAY THEY IGNORE THE STANDARD RULES!!!!! YOU NEVER READ MY FULL POST,
I QUOTE MYSELF FOR THIS IS WHAT I HAVE SAID!!!
"The detachment rule supercedes the regular rules because THAT is what the detachment is for. Since you are playing an Apoc game, you use the Apoc rules in Conjuction to your Main rule book and Codex. Even as the Apoc is listed as an expansion, bottom line, you are playing the Apoc rules."

I SAID IN CONJUCTION!!!! IN CONJUCTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I NEVER REPLACE, I only say the detachment rule supercedes as this is an Apoc game. Read Page 90, Paragraph 1. IT IS IN BOLD LETTERS!!!!!

wallacethe5 wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:

wallacethe5 wrote:

insaniak wrote:Repeating the relevant rule twice in every post won't make it suddenly mean what you're trying to twist it into meaning.

You deploy the tanks within 6" of the command tank, yes. That doesn't mean they don't subsequently scatter as normal, because the rule doesn't say not to, no matter how many times you quote it.

ARGH!!!! Of course you scatter as normal, but you must be within the 6 inch radius of the Command tank. That is the benefit the owning player of the formation CLAIMS as specificly written by the formation rules for Apoc. You are no longer playing standard games any more, you JOIN and follow the rules set in by Apoc and the MAIN RULE book. You follow deep strike guidelines, yes correct, BUT you claim the benefit the Apoc formation gives you by only scatter to the minimum of the command tank which is 6 inches, but you still follow the deep strike guidelines.

I am not twisting any rules. It is as stated, formations come in together.if you don't like it, don't play it. Read page 100 in full. Not just to the OP, but to everyone here. READ PAGE 100 of the Apoc book. THE FULL PAGE.

How about you start reading the stuff people are posting and stop repeating yourself.

Even the formation states, 'of, if, coming on from reserve, they must enter the table within 6" of the point entered by the command tank'.

They must deploy within 6" of the point the command tank originally deep striked & scattered from, they must then roll to deep strike and scatter as normal for each tank, using that initial point and a 6" guideline as where they can choose for deployment.

This works the same way for formations with deep strike, like the above I posted, read them. I won't do it in caps like you, but read them.

This may get me mod attention, but, I imagine you would be punched in the face in real life if your tactic for a debate is to repeat yourself over and over and ignore the opposing party.

and yes... they can scatter out of range of the command tank. If the command tank scattered 11" from it's original position, the other tanks will have to follow the rules as stated to deploy and get within 6" of the command tank to gain strike force benefits.


P.S. I like how you have subtly changed your position to they deep strike, but cannot scatter more than 6" from the command tank.

BULL, BULL BULLL...... I NEVER SAY THEY IGNORE THE STANDARD RULES!!!!! YOU NEVER READ MY FULL POST,
I QUOTE MYSELF FOR THIS IS WHAT I HAVE SAID!!!
"The detachment rule supercedes the regular rules because THAT is what the detachment is for. Since you are playing an Apoc game, you use the Apoc rules in Conjuction to your Main rule book and Codex. Even as the Apoc is listed as an expansion, bottom line, you are playing the Apoc rules."

I SAID IN CONJUCTION!!!! IN CONJUCTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I NEVER REPLACE, I only say the detachment rule supercedes as this is an Apoc game. Read Page 90, Paragraph 1. IT IS IN BOLD LETTERS!!!!!

Have a great night Wallace. I'm done arguing something so obvious.

Er... yeah. I think we're done here.