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Haemonculus

5 Warriors - Blaster // Raider with FF
5 Warriors - Blaster // Raider with FF
5 Warriors - Blaster // Raider with FF
5 Warriors - Blaster // Raider with FF
3 Wracks // Venom with 2 SCs
3 Wracks // Venom with 2 SCs

10 Scourges - 4 Heatlances
10 Scourges - 4 Heatlances
10 Scourges - 4 Heatlances

Razorwing Jetfighter
Razorwing Jetfighter
Razorwing Jetfighter

How bout that?
3 Units of instakilling tanks, 7 units to supress vehicle's fire, 2 units specialized in taking out Monstruous Creatures and... 12 pie plates of infantry doom.

What you say?

You mean 3 units to destroy a vehicle, and the to get assaulted or shot by whatever inside because your with in 9 inches.
As good as heat lances can be, they suffer because of the 9 inch range to get in 2d6. At least with reavers, you can move an additional 6 inches to get in cover or out of LOS, but with scourges you can be stuck out in the open and lose half your squad to the rapid fire shots, or even assaulted.

And 3 razorwings. can they be good? Yes. But will a ravager perform better? Yes. If you want to a razorwing, the best way I've seen is 2 ravagers, that can work on anti-tank, whole 1 razorwing, with disintegrator cannons for anti infantry, in addition with the 4 missiles it has.

3 wracks in a venom...Hrmmmm. I've never seen that before. I really don't know how well that will fare. It sounds like it could be a good idea. They are much more durable than kabalites, I'd say try it out. Because you're not trying to get in 18 inch blaster range, or even assault, so you cam stay 36 inches away, which is a fairly safe distance.

The kabalites in a raider should be good, No real complaints.

Your scourges are the main focus on you list. They are the only things that won't start out in a vehicle. They will be big targets, and what will you do if you face an army that's not entirely mech. You have nowhere near enough fire power to take them out. Well actually the razorwings could do a decent amount of damage(but probably not enough) to a horde army, but this is under the assumption that you take the ravagers instead.

And for the record, 2 squads of 3 wracks is not specialized in taking out monstrous creature. Even if you charge and strike before it, you'll still be lucky to get 1 wound on it.

Soulx wrote:And 3 razorwings. can they be good? Yes. But will a ravager perform better? Yes. If you want to a razorwing, the best way I've seen is 2 ravagers, that can work on anti-tank, whole 1 razorwing, with disintegrator cannons for anti infantry, in addition with the 4 missiles it has.

Um...considering everything else in his army except the Wracks and Venoms is geared for taking out armor, I'm pretty sure the Razorwings are a good choice because he needs the anti-infantry firepower.

I'm actually intrigued by the list, though I think Trueblasters would be better overall for the list than Scourges. They'd be as good/better at killing tanks, and you could field 4 in a Raider with FF for less than the cost of one of those Scourge squads (almost 60 points less - which would be a saving of 180 points which could be used for an additional unit or something. At 2k I think target saturation is vital to DE.)

Your list isn't selling me on Scourges though, nice try

It might be an interesting list to try. The role of Tank hunting going to fast attack. And anti infantry being in the heavy slot. Like Thor said, Trueblasters are more point efficient for the tank killing power. However for the purposes of building a "Scourgewing" I think the jetfighters are a pretty good anti infantry option..

I don't like Trueblasters...

After a 12" movement, disembark and shoot they just.... die... your most expesive unit simply die without much effort..

why 10 scourges with 4 Meltas are better than Trueblasters:

4 Lance S6 AP1 Meltas > 4 Lance S8 AP2
how many times your ravager actually killed a Land Raider? about 50/50 right? That means that darklight weaponry aren't killers, they supress.

6 shardcarbines deliver more shots than a Venom


you have 6 bodies until they start killing your meltas, trueblasters don't have that.

But i must concur, the Scourges are prone to Assaults... lets trade them for Reavers, key? now its Reaverwing:


Haemonculus - Venom Blade

5 Warriors - Blaster // Raider with FF
5 Warriors - Blaster // Raider with FF
5 Warriors - Blaster // Raider with FF
5 Warriors - Blaster // Raider with FF
4 Wracks // Venom with 2 SCs
4 Wracks // Venom with 2 SCs

9 Reavers - 3 Heatlances, Champion with Venom Blade
9 Reavers - 3 Heatlances, Champion with Venom Blade
9 Reavers - 3 Heatlances, Champion with Venom Blade

Razorwing Jetfighter with FF
Razorwing Jetfighter with FF
Razorwing Jetfighter with FF

The Jetbikers now fare a little better vs Assaults due to Jetbike Assault Move and a Champion with a Venom Blade.
Razorwings are more resilient now
Use Tau tactics: move, hit, hide behind vehicles
The Wracks aren't supposed to disembark, they're just there to give you a 'cheap' Venom to overwhelm Monstruous creatures with poisonous attacks.
Against horde you have 12 Pie Plates.

why heatlanses over haywire blasters? why squads of 10 instead of 5?

Why Razorwings over ravagers?

I think trueborn in venoms with blasters makes more sense than scourges.

Smitty0305 wrote:why heatlanses over haywire blasters? why squads of 10 instead of 5?

Because i wanna kill, not maim. Squads of 10 to get the lances i'm not getting for not choosing ravagers

Smitty0305 wrote:Why Razorwings over ravagers?

Because i wanna use razorwing's awesomeness? For one Dark Lance shot you get 4 pie plates of infantry doom, most DE lists focus on getting TOO MUCH AT, then a horde of Boyz comes along and bashes you like nobody's business.

Smitty0305 wrote:I think trueborn in venoms with blasters makes more sense than scourges.

I disagree. Trueborn in Venom with blasters are suicidal, reavers and scourges are not.

If i wanted to build a cookie-cutter list full of trueborn with blasters, ravagers and all that same-o same-o units i would.
My point is: there's ways to create a competitive list without using 4 trueborn with Blasters and 3 Ravagers. The DE have other ways to get AT, you know...

you need more than 3-4 wracks to take down MC's. I would use scorges with 4 splinter cannons and use them for monster/infantry bashing as opposed to tank hunting

The biggest problem with both these lists is that you have so much power concentrated in 3 big units. Its not such a problem on Reavers because they can JSJ to stay out of range, but I find it hard to justify such large units of Scourges because a) if you are shooting vehicles you waste a heap of anti infantry shooting b) your ability to damage multi targets is reduced (wrecking 2 vehicles is better than completely annihilating 1) c) if they die (being caught in assault being the most obvious cause) then you lose a heap of firepower and a heap of points.

I like the second list much more though, big units of Reavers are actually very scary because they are very mobile and pack a decent punch in assault as well. If you trim a Warrior unit and get 2 more Haemonculi then they become truely scary, starting all of them with FNP + easy cover makes them a nightmare to kill. You won't be able to hide them behind your vehicles very well though (mostly because the vehicles won't be around very long, but fortunately you can just turbo to get 3+ cover and can happily jump into terrain without fear of killing yourself).

Leave the Wracks at 3 strong unless you have absolutely nothing better to take, the only MC they can be reasonably expected to take down is a Wraithlord (which are basically never seen in competitive lists). You can maybe kill a badly wounded Tervigon because you hit before it, but every other MC I can think of goes before you and chops you in half before you hit. You would be better of using those points to get a Liquifier/Shattershard for the Haemonculi.

If you don't like anti tank units dying after killing 1 vehicle then consider using more infantry with Dark Lances. Trueborn or even Warriors with Dark Lances are much harder to shut down than Raider/Ravager fire and will keep firing until the unit is completely dead. Most people just see the 4 Blaster Trueborn and then ignore most of the other options, but not all Dark Eldar lists can afford to have 1 use anti tank units like that.

Those Razorwings should probably be reserving in almost every game, if your opponent has any long ranged anti tank then they die turn 1-2 (possibly before they get to fire off their missiles which would be bad) and your anti infantry ability completely disappears. The idea should be for the Reavers and other anti tank units to open up some vehicles turn 1-2 and then have the Razorwings arrive and dump 4 pie plates into a bunched up disembarked unit and remove them. Razorwings are also one of the few vehicles where Nightshields consistently work very well, having the only 48" range weapons in the codex means you can actually turn up and volley off your missiles without fear of return fire. I would also consider upgrading 1-2 of the missiles, Shattershard for kiilling power or Neurotoxin for pinning.

@ Smitty. Heat Lances kill stuff, Haywires are purely suppression. In a list where you have other stuff around Haywires are fine, but in this list the plan is to use the Scourges/Reavers as the main way of killing stuff (which imo will work fine if you build your list properly). Razorwings make more sense in this list because you need the anti infantry punch, you could change them to Ravagers I guess but then you would need to change all the Raiders into Venoms or you end up with too much anti tank and not enough anti infantry. Both methods will work fine, the key is finding a good balance.

Tavitin wrote:I don't like Trueblasters...

After a 12" movement, disembark and shoot they just.... die... your most expesive unit simply die without much effort..

...why disembark? Yeah, it's increasing their range bubble, but they already have a 24" (or 26" if you play the pivot trick) threat radius, that's enough to be shooting into a deployment zone on Turn 1.

why 10 scourges with 4 Meltas are better than Trueblasters:

4 Lance S6 AP1 Meltas > 4 Lance S8 AP2
how many times your ravager actually killed a Land Raider? about 50/50 right? That means that darklight weaponry aren't killers, they supress.

This is interesting, let's consider the numbers vs. Land Raiders;

4 Heat Lances not within melta range vs. Land Raider
Shak : 14.012%
Stun : 7.204%
Weap : 7.204%
Immo : 7.204%
Wrec : 7.204%
Expl : 0%

4 Heat Lances within melta range vs. Land Raider
Shak : 11.786%
Stun : 28.438%
Weap : 28.438%
Immo : 28.438%
Wrec : 28.438%
Expl : 42.613%

4 Blasters vs. Land Raider
Shak : 14.012%
Stun : 20.438%
Weap : 20.438%
Immo : 20.438%
Wrec : 20.438%
Expl : 26.497%

So - within melta range Heatlances are indeed 2x as good as Blasters as Exploding a Landraider, and are about 1/3 better at otherwise jacking it up. Outside of melta range they are drastically inferior to Blasters (or Lances). I don't see this one as cut and dry as you do. Let's consider ranges.

Trueblaster range - 24" (6" vehicle + 18" range)
Heat Lance range - 30" (12" move + 18" range)
Heat Lance 'better than Blaster' range - 21"

So, the Scourge carried Heat Lance really does have less range than the Trueblasters when you want them to be better than the Trueblasters.

Also, please note those numbers are for *4* Heat Lances. How does the within melta range number stack up when it's 4 Blasters vs. the 2 Heat Lances the Scourges are packing?

Shak : 3.669%
Stun : 19.333%
Weap : 19.333%
Immo : 19.333%
Wrec : 19.333%
Expl : 33.608%

The Heat Lances are very slightly better at blowing things up, and are *worse* at making it so the vehicle can't do anything. Not that impressive for +70 points in my opinion.

Also, this doesn't even take into account variances of squad setup - the Trueblasters all fire from any point on their vehicle, the Scourges fire from independent. locations within their squad, so depending on how the models are placed their real range is a bit more variable. I'm not saying Heat Lances are bad, I'm just saying Blasters are almost as good, more reliable, have better functional range, and are much cheaper to take. If you hate Trueblasters, than, yeah, HLs on Scourges are a way to go, I just want you to be aware of the choice you're making.

6 shardcarbines deliver more shots than a Venom

you have 6 bodies until they start killing your meltas, trueblasters don't have that.

At less range. Trueblasters lack body padding (though, to be honest, if we made the units equal cost they could have body padding *and* Shard carbines *and* a Dark Lance. Also, the Scourges are firing their Shardcarbines at whatever vehicle the Heat Lances are firing at. The Trueblasters can fire their Blasters at a vehicle and their S.Cannon packing Venom can fire at infantry - making them significantly better than the Scourges at this.


I like your bike centric list much better than your Scourge centric one - but I'll admit I believe the RJBs are superior to Scourges as well
I'd still tend to lean towards Blasters over Heat Lances to enhance range threat vs. tougher vehicles. As a theme list to field RJBs ina competitive manner this is probably the best list I've seen yet.
Looks like you could also trim the Wracks back to 3 and sneak in an Archon with a Blaster as the HQ instead of the Haemy. This will increase your anti-tank shooting and actually serve a purpose, whereas the Haemy is just sort of hanging out.

Tavitin wrote:I disagree. Trueborn in Venom with blasters are suicidal, reavers and scourges are not.

If i wanted to build a cookie-cutter list full of trueborn with blasters, ravagers and all that same-o same-o units i would.
My point is: there's ways to create a competitive list without using 4 trueborn with Blasters and 3 Ravagers. The DE have other ways to get AT, you know...

I am glad you're looking into alternate builds (hoping that doesn't sound patronizing ). Mine is probably main-stream cookie-cutter.

One point I'd like to give you to consider: Don't disembark the TruBlasters; it is suicide. For pounding Turn 1, okay, yeah, they gotta get out of the venom to achieve range on enemy tanks. Then they're likely dead next turn.

Ninja'd by Thor665

But I've found that I can have the ravagers do the initial stun/shaking Turn 1 and then have the venoms be close enough Turn 2 to move Combat Speed, allowing the TBs to shoot tanks from the safety of their venom.

Which part "Wracks aren't supposed to disembark" you guys aren't following?

They're the units specialized in taking out Monstruous Creatures? YES. Because they're assaulting with Poisoned Weapons? NO.

They are the cheapest Venom avaible to the Dark Eldar. Two Venoms have 24 poisoned shots, which results in an avarage of 9 saves, regardless of toughness.

@Thor
I need the Haemon to get Wracks as troops

So, to suit thor's tastes:

Haemonculus - Liquifier (start with Melta Reavers)

5 Warriors - Blaster // Raider with FF
5 Warriors - Blaster // Raider with FF
5 Warriors - Blaster // Raider with FF
5 Warriors - Blaster // Raider with FF
3 Wracks // Venom with 2 SCs
3 Wracks // Venom with 2 SCs

9 Reavers - 3 Heat Lances, Champion with VB
9 Reavers - 3 Blasters, Champion with VB
9 Reavers - 3 Blasters, Champion with VB

Razorwing Jetfighter with FF
Razorwing Jetfighter with FF
Razorwing Jetfighter with FF

Horde is scared of this, Mech are slightly bothered by this, everything else flinches.
Also since Heat Lances are more likely to be focus-fired and more likely to go into oponent's faces, they receive a pain token for starters

Thor665 wrote:
Looks like you could also trim the Wracks back to 3 and sneak in an Archon with a Blaster as the HQ instead of the Haemy. This will increase your anti-tank shooting and actually serve a purpose, whereas the Haemy is just sort of hanging out.

If he does that then the Wracks aren't scoring anymore, which make it kinda pointless.

The stuff about Blasters vs Heat Lances is pretty commonly known. I should point out that you have ignored a few things like how easy it is to shake/stun a Venom (which is why Blaster Trueborn are always going to be in the suicide unit category, they won't be firing more than a couple of turns in most cases), the improved long range performance of the Heat Lance against AV10 and 11 (it still doesn't beat Darklight unless its close range but it closes the gap) and that the extra range of the Heat Lance mean you are more likely to get an extra round of shooting in turn 1 (because any half decent opponent will not give you turn 1 shots with Trueborn unless you disembark them). Ignoring the actual Mathhammer, Heat Lances are better than Blasters simply because they have AP1. That +1 on the damage chart is huge simply because it reduces the randomness involved (which in 40k is huge). With Darklight weaponry its easy to completely fluff with your damage rolls (we have all done it) but with Heat Lances as soon as you get through the armour its almost impossible not to do some meaningful damage. More importantly its pretty easy to get Darklight weaponry all through the Dark Eldar codex, which means you have plentiful access to weapons which will consistently shake or stun but have a relatively low chance of getting kills, so having weapons which can reliably get kills for you is very helpful.

I 2nd what powerguy said.

You can't rely on Trueborns with Blasters to perform the main AT.

Trueborns with DLs, on the other hand...

Tavitin wrote:I 2nd what powerguy said.

You can't rely on Trueborns with Blasters to perform the main AT.

Trueborns with DLs, on the other hand...

DLs aren't mobile and the enemy can get Cover Saves.

Mobile Trublasters (still in or out of the venom) are mobile enough to deny Cover Saves.

They add 12 Lances to my list, for a grand total of 24 at 1850, or another 8 for a total of 20 at 1500.

1850:
x3 Ravagers
x3 Trublaster boats (4 each)
x3 raiders.

1500
x3 Ravagers
x2 Trublaster boats (4 each)
x3 raiders.

But, if you won't buy what I'm selling, then that's okay (not trying to be patronizing).

You do have three raiders and three ravagers, which provide Main AT

You can afford suicidal (or semi-suicidal) trueblasters, my list can't...

I honestly recommend taking Haywire Blasters over heatlances on the Scourges. Talk about fire suppression with range. That's 36" range with a jump, nothing to scoff at, and it keeps you out of charge range.

Grim Smasha wrote:I honestly recommend taking Haywire Blasters over heatlances on the Scourges. Talk about fire suppression with range. That's 36" range with a jump, nothing to scoff at, and it keeps you out of charge range.

I don't wanna glance stuff, i wanna penetrate stuff.

Why?

So i can put Shardcarbines and Shatterfield missiles to work.

If i only supress enemy fire, i'll only delay the inevitable: assaults.

Ok so you are aiming at transports with the scourges w/ heat lances. And how are they not suicide? Not only suicide, but MORE expensive suicide then trueborn which will still be 18" from whatever they just popped. If I was going to suicide 4 trueborn or 10 scourges, I would rather suicide the trueborn. Though I would argue that trueborn are not exactly suicide considering the distance you can put yourself at, plus cover, plus the fact that your venom remains if the unit is wiped.

Truly that was a good point, which made me re-do the list with Reavers...

Look above


Automatically Appended Next Post:
here's another version, with some assault to cover melee issues:

Haemonculus (give reavers FNP)
Haemonculus (give reavers FNP)

5 Warriors - Blaster // Raider with FF
5 Warriors - Blaster // Raider with FF
5 Warriors - Blaster // Raider with FF
5 Warriors - Blaster // Raider with FF
3 Wracks // Venom with 2 SCs
3 Wracks // Venom with 2 SCs

9 Reavers - 3 Heat Lances, Champion with VB
9 Reavers - 3 Heat Lances, Champion with VB
5 Beastmasters - Venom Blade, Clawed Fiend, 5 Khymerae, 6 Razorwing Flocks

Razorwing Jetfighter
Razorwing Jetfighter
Razorwing Jetfighter