Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I just want to check my interpretation of the rules

If cal gar is with an honour guard group, and Cassius joins them does this mean that cal gar can re roll attempts to hit using liturgies of battle, and the re roll wounds using titanic might?

And also if there is a chapter banner in the honour guard will this increase all of the units attacks by one including the special characters?

Which means if I'm right cal gar would get 7 attacks on the charge, 4 basic 1 for two close combat weapons, one for the charge and one for the chapter banner. All of which ignore armour saves, and can be re rolled to hit and to wound.

Cassius ends up with 4 2 basic 1 charge. 1 banner
The chapter champion gets 5 3 standard 1 for two close combat weapons 1 charge 1 banner
Three honour guard get 12 2 basic 1 banner 1 charge three times

Which gives you 21 attacks which can re roll to hit

But not re roll wounds.

Total attacks would be 28


If any one can see any reason why I cant do this please let me know.

Yes, that is correct.

Similar to Lightning claw equipped terminators with a chaplain - you get to reroll to hit the turn you assault and rerolls to wound.

At the time you determine attacks Calgar etc are all part of the unit, therefore do get +1A

Calgar does NOT get the 2CCW bonus - he has 2 special CCW (well, 3 technically) and must choose which to use, meaning he never gets the bonus. Some posters may disagree, but the argument is far weaker that way.

That is correct with all those attacks with rerolls

But with all those points spent, mind as well choose a more CC orientated space marine army

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Calgar does NOT get the 2CCW bonus - he has 2 special CCW (well, 3 technically) and must choose which to use, meaning he never gets the bonus. Some posters may disagree, but the argument is far weaker that way.

I thought he has two powerfists?

kenshin620 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Calgar does NOT get the 2CCW bonus - he has 2 special CCW (well, 3 technically).

I thought he has two powerfists?

He has a power sword and "The Gauntlets of Ultramar" which is two PFs, yes. So he has two different specials and can never get the bonus attack. Logic being a model with three weapons is surely also a model with two weapons...

Ah right, I keep forgetting the sword. Carry on

Just to point out: the rules question about calgar's cc weapons tends to get complicated and drawn out. Look up one of the numerous threads on the debate if you want the details.

Roughly, it works out as several possible choices.

1) The gauntlets are one weapon, the sword is a second weapon. Calgar is armed with only two diff special weapons so never gets a bonus attack.

2) Calgar is armed with the gauntlets (two ccw) and the sword, this gives him three special cc weapons. He cannot pick to only use two of these weapons so never gets a bonus attack.

3) Calgar is armed with three special cc weapons. He can decide to only fight with the gauntlets so does get a bonus attack.


This is an EXTREME simplification of the arguements (altho very few people seem to be in the #1 camp, most go for 2 or 3)


The crux of the problem is that the rules only discuss using 1 or 2 special weapons, more weapons is not specifically mentioned.




Sliggoth

The codex says: (page84)

"Gauntlets of Ultramar:
These are a matched pair of power fists..."

I'd think that pretty much shows that they're two weapons, (two powerfists) and thus give the +1A. The BRB also says (page 42) that a model with two different special weapons (the gauntlets and the sword) must "choose which weapon to use that turn..", and as one is two powerfists then you gain the +1A.
The sword is just in case you need to hit something faster than you, which I don't think you'd ever need to over the fists.
That's how I've always played it, and seen it played as.

Back to the OP, yes they all work together.

No, you have two different special CCW and NEVER gain the +1A

The NEVER is very strong, and has yet to be countered succesfully - some hand waving attempts, mainly

?? If he has two Power fists, how does he not get +1 Attack for an additional CCW? He can CHOSE to use the sword if he wants too, then he would NOT get it.

Because, and heres the kicker: he has 2 different special CCW. ANd this NEVER gets the bonus for 2 CCW.

IF you have to choose which special CCW to use (he does) you NEVER gain the bonus attack.

For the LOVE OF GOD NOT THIS AGAIN ... there are two views Nosferatu1001's never more then one attack and Mine that you have to actually select two weapons before looking on that list of effects.

But lets not get back into that as that is an other thread (normally a locked one)

...whcih never is allowed, because you have no allowance to choose two weapons to then choose only the one weapon you have.

If you instead treat it as 2+ it is more consistent and less logically ludicrous.

So this round I am going to use my twin PF's thus I have 2 cc weapons thus the +1 attack. The next round I want to go at my iniative and use my power sword for 2 attacks and my PF for one. I am useing two diffrent weapons and do NOT get the +1.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because, and heres the kicker: he has 2 different special CCW. ANd this NEVER gets the bonus for 2 CCW.

IF you have to choose which special CCW to use (he does) you NEVER gain the bonus attack.

No, the Kicker is he has weapons that he can USE.

It doe not matter what he has, it matters what he is using to attack with.

The rule states "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for different possible combinations..."

You guys are missing the fact that you have to be using two different special CCW's to use those rules, simply being equipped has no bearing.

If you look at 'two different special weapons' on Page 42, that entry makes it clear that "When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for USING two weapons (Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)".

The bold and underlined should settle this long standing debate, I do not see how it can be any more clear.

If you are not Using 'two different special weapons' then 'but they never get the bonus attack for USING two weapons' does not apply

It references 'using' and 'wielding' weapons in its entry, so you have to be using/wielding calgars power sword to not get the extra attack, if you use/wield the gauntlets you DO get the extra attack.

They CAN use, not ARE using.

SO you are syaing you can CHOOSE once, despite having no rules to support it? Interesting.

Or, you take the logically consistent view: treating 2 as 2+, so you dont have a choice one way ("using" the 2 PF before choosing which PF to use) then the other

Black Dragon - did you choose to not use the power sword? Have you therefore chosen between one special weapon and another? Well guess what - NEVER means NEVER

It is important to differentiate what he is currently using, and what he has available in his wargear. Because that I think is were the confusion comes from.

If you look at the Space Wolf Grey Hunter, he has in his wargear a bolter, bolt pistol and a CCW. He has all these weapons available to him. He can shoot said bolter, and not assault, or he can not shoot bolter/shoot bolt pistol and then assault. The fact that he has a bolter and a CCW does not negate the fact that he has a bolt pistol which does allow the +1 attack for two CCW. One could argue that if the player does not declare that he is going to use the bolt pistol and the CCW he should not get the +1 attack, since a bolter and a CCW does not allow the +1. But we know that it is in his wargear so we know it can be done. Is the GH wielding the bolter, bolt pistol and the CCW all at once? No, he is using the bolt pistol and the CCW. The player choses from his wargear to get the best possible results, that is why they are all there.

Now Calgar has in his profile three total power weapons. The Gauntlets of Ultramar (two, a matched pair) and a power sword. This leads to two different ways that Calgar can use his weapons. Scenario 1: If he marches into combat and wields his matched pair of power fists (leaving his power sword sheathed), he will get the +1 attack for having "two of the same special weapon." But the draw back to using this is that you will lose his I5 ability to beat his enemy to the punch (PF attack at I1). Scenario 2: Calgar unsheathes his power sword and is now wielding two different special weapons, and will not get the +1 attack as per the "Two different special weapons" rule, but will get to attach at I5. Why else give a special character that has a high Initiative as his only special weapon a weapon that attacks at I1, hence the power sword to off set the two. It is a trade off between speed or amount of attacks.

The RAW is stating that when it is time to attack, the player that is wielding two different special weapons does not get the bonus because he must chose between the two. Calgar does not have two different special weapons as his wargear, he has a pair of the same weapon, and then a different special weapon. He choses to use the two of the same (matched PF), or the different one (power sword).

Huh?

He has 2 different special weapons: PF and Power Sword. Those are your two different special weapons.

In order to just use the 2 PF he MUST choose NOT to use the power sword. As soon as that happens he has chosen between them.

The +1A argument side is on hideously shaky ground - apparently holding 2 different special weapons makes you so you cannot get the extra attack, but adding a 3rd somehow makes things better.

It makes no sense, it is *incredibly* shaky in the actual rules, and thus if you want to be safe - dont play the +1A. Its the only way where you *know* you are not exploiting or breaking any rules.

If his profile said power fist, power sword and thunder hammer, then yes, he would in NO WAY get a +1. None of the special weapons are the same and are all different. This does in no way make adding a third special weapon get around the rules like you are implying. It is meant to be this way because they are a matched pair, the same. If Calgar was not meant to get any type of advantage from the gauntlets, his profile would list one gauntlet and a power sword.

Can anyone tell me of another special character that was explicitly written to have three special weapons, two of which are a MATCHED PAIR? Probably several that have multiple special weapons, but are there any that have a matched pair? This is not a flame start, I actually would like to know.

Just stating an argument is weak does not make it so. Nos, the argument you are making is indeed a strong one but it flies in the face of common sense. The opposing argument, allwoing+1A has support in the ambiguous rule application AND makes sense. This could be why the latter is so attractive.

Merlin - they wrote the rules to the model, nothing else.
The argument IS weak. ITs been explained why many, many times.

So does he go initiative 1 or what?

If he chooses to use the fist, I1. I5 if using the power sword - as you only use one weapon at a time.

You have to choose which special weapon you are using, the sword, or the double power fists.

Since power fists give an extra attack if you are wielding 2 of them, you could make the argument that they get a +1 bonus attack, since the rules just say that you don't get a bonus attack for being armed with 2 different special weapons and in this case, the extra attack isn't coming from using 2 different weapons, it is coming from the special rules of the power fists.

You get to strike at your normal initiative if you use the sword, that's it's special ability. You strike at I1, double your strength, and get +1 attack for using the fists, since those are all the abilities of the second weapon you have chosen.

That's the best argument the pro attack crowd could probably make; not sure if I agree with it though

nosferatu1001 wrote:They CAN use, not ARE using.

SO you are syaing you can CHOOSE once, despite having no rules to support it? Interesting.

Or, you take the logically consistent view: treating 2 as 2+, so you dont have a choice one way ("using" the 2 PF before choosing which PF to use) then the other

Black Dragon - did you choose to not use the power sword? Have you therefore chosen between one special weapon and another? Well guess what - NEVER means NEVER

So how do you explain this part of it NoS?

If you look at 'two different special weapons' on Page 42, that entry makes it clear that "When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for USING two weapons (Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)".

You NEVER get the bonus attack ONLY if you are USING 'two different special weapons'.

If you are USING Two of the same special weapon you get the bonus attack as outlined in the rules for 'Two of the same special weapon'

How do you explain that the rules make you USE only ever a single weapon?

You cannot.

Your argument is that you get to choose - well, show the rules for that. Oh wait, there arent any. So, you have a well defined situation (2 differenct special CCW == no extra attack) yet adding another special CCW means you do?

Nope, still not working.

The rules let you use one or two weapons in CC, you gain no additional benefit for more than two CCW's. P.37

Please answer my query:

how do you explain this part of it?

If you look at 'two different special weapons' on Page 42, that entry makes it clear that "When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for USING two weapons (Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)".

You never get the bonus attack for USING 'two different special weapons'

Since Calgar is not USING, AKA wielding, 'two different special weapons', he follows the rules for what he is using. And Calgar does not have 2 CCW's he has 3.

It took me some time to find the exact wording, since we have had this discussion before, but this evidence is indisputable.

Read the lines for special weapons - you pick one to use in CC

So 2 CCW is not a subset of 3? When asked "did you roll a double" on 3 dice, your answer would be no? really?

Your evidence is as flawed as the last time you presented it. Nothing will make you change your mind on this, so whats the point in rehashing it?

Two is a subset of three, and "you pick one to use in CC" if you are using/wielding 'two different special weapons'

However, if you are not using, AKA wielding, 'two different special weapons' then you do not incur the 'but they never get the bonus attack for USING two weapons' clause of the 'two different special weapons' rule.

As shown on page 42. when you are using 'two different special weapons' that is when those rules kick in. as noted in the 'two different special weapons' entry.

The evidence is solid, I do not see how you do not understand the evidence.

But since nothing will make you change your mind, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, we should just drop it.

You cannot get hung up on just one rule, you must look at each one individually.

The logic that a player cannot chose makes no sense. Where are the rules that state that you CANNOT choose, which gun to shoot in the shooting phase, or which to use in the assault phase? I have a bolter and a bolt pistol, or a rocket launcher and a bolt pistol. But the rules don't say I can chose, so I do what? By that logic I am stuck in a loop of I have guns but the rules won't let me decide, that makes no sense. Shoot bolter (rapid fire), I don't get to assault. Shoot bolt pistol (pistol or assault weapon), I get to assault. Two different rules with a specific application. Now there are rules that state if you did “A” then you can’t do “B,” other than situations like that (moving) than you are free to pick which weapon to shoot.

Again let's look at a character that has bolter, bolt pistol and ccw. The rules state: pg 42, “Single-Handed Weapons: Of course, if a model is using a two-handed close combat weapon (such as a rifle’s butt or a two-handed battle axe), it may not use it together with another weapon.” Does this rule apply? Yes under certain circumstances. An example of this rule working by itself would be: Bash enemy with bolter with two hands, slash enemy with chain sword only, but wait, I have a ccw pistol also, to bad I can NEVER switch to any of my other weapons to get the bonus. It does not work that way. The fact is that you do get the bonus. When does the switch happen? According to your argument it NEVER can, because the rules don't say so. Does the character change his weapons at the start of the assault phase when charging, and then when the models are in combat and the “attacks” start at the initiative level do they take effect? The fact is that it does not matter when or how the switch takes place. The rules for ccw bonus for special weapons only take into account finite in the now moments, what you are using at that moment, when the attacks happen. The rules also only assume that the character will only have two special weapons. Two that are the same and two that are different. This is why each rule must be evaluated in their own merit.

You choose to do option 1 and rule "A" takes effect; you choose option 2 and rule "B" takes effect. Each has to be evaluated in the moment.

In this case the special character was written with wargear that has two rules that apply under two different circumstances. They made a point to say he has a match pair of PF and a power sword for a reason. The text clearly points out a matched pair, why even bother to mention this.

1. Player assaults and declares that Calgar is going to use his matched pair of PF. When it is time to "attack" and has two PF, does this meet the rules for two of the same special weapons. Yes it does, because when it is his turn to attack, he does not have to choose which one to attack with because he is wielding two identical PF. Rule for two of the same special weapon applies. Rules are met. Calgar’s attacks are carried out at initiative 1, with the +1 attack for two CCW.

2. Player assaults and declares to use Calgar's power sword. He is now wielding two different special weapons when it is his turn to attack, thus meeting the rules for NEVER getting a bonus for two different special weapons. Does this meet the special rule regarding two different special weapons, yes it does. Rules are met. Calga’sr attacks are carried out at initiative 5, with no bonus for two CCW.

Do the rules specify that wargear can or cannot be selected for use, no. Do the special weapon rules take into account two of the same and then a different weapon, no. The rules only take into account two that are the same, and two that are different. Both rules apply, but under different circumstances.

To sum up your post: the "why" is because the wrote the rules to the model. THe model was out waaaaaay before the 5th ed book, and the GoU are well established.

Nothing else matters.

DR - agreed. You ignore the rules i present, and present a flawed argument in response. Obviously i wont agree.