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HQ
Col. Henryk Fox (a.k.a. Col. Straken) - Company Command Squad w/Carapace Armor, 2 Bodyguards, 2x Melta Guns, Heavy Flamer & Vox Caster - in Chimera w/Multi-laser, Heavy Stubber & Heavy Flamer

TROOPS
Veteran Squad (Fwd Sentries) w/Bolt Pistol, Plasma Gun, 2x Grenade Launchers, Lascannon & Vox Caster - objective holders and ranged ass kickers
Platoon Command Squad w/Power Fist & 4x Grenade Launchers - in Chimera w/Multi-laser, Heavy Stubber & Heavy Flamer
Infantry Platoon
Commissar Tennyson w/Power Sword
Commissar Poole w/Power Sword (should he be replaced with a Preacher or Regimental Advisor?)
Squad A w/Bolt Pistol, Power Sword, Melta Bombs, Grenade Launcher & Vox Caster
Squad B w/Bolt Pistol, Power Sword, Melta Bombs & Melta Gun
Squad C w/Bolt Pistol, Power Sword, Melta Bombs, Melta Gun & Vox Caster
Combat Engineers Squad (a.k.a. SWS) w/Demo Charge & 2x Flamers - in Vendetta
Heavy Weapons Section w/Missile Launcher & 2 Autocannon (can be 3 AC or even 3 Mortars)
Generally the Infantry Platoon will operate as a 32-man Power Blob (20 power weapon + 54 standard S4/I4 attacks on the charge) with the Company Command Squad in close proximity. Squad C could be separated out as an objective holder. PCS makes an excellent fire brigade. Those 4 GLs have more transport and skimmer kills than the rest of the army combined. The Veteran Squad can throw a tremendous amount of highly accurate firepower at short to medium ranges. So combined with the Vox and Orders they should be a major threat to any MEQ or TEQ units. The Engineers can engage any enemy artillery or objective sitters with a para-drop attack. Though they may be a better speed bump, forcing the enemy to charge and slaughter them while the blob and CCS set-up for a Furious Charge fueled counter attack. The HWS will provide support as required and will probably (maybe?) stay close to the Griffon.

FAST ATTACK
Vendetta w/Hellfury Missiles - opponent and game type will determine Scout vs. Reserve/Outflank/Deep Strike.
Bane Wolf w/Multi-melta, Rough Terrain mods & Smoke Launchers - in reserve for defense against high mobility and deep striking enemies
Devil Dog w/Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber & Smoke Launchers
I can mix and match any flavor or variant of the Hellhound chassis. I'm very comfortable with the Devil Dog, have high hopes for the Bane Wolf and have been generally disappointed by Hellhounds (though I've yet to field one with a hull MM). I've the same level of options with the Valkyrie/Vendetta. The Vendetta with Hellfury Missiles is my current favorite since it gives me tl lascannons for AT work and can even maul an infantry target while moving 12". The regular Vendetta is a gunship and, IMO, wasted as a transport. And as much as I love my Valkyries w/RPs, our local hyper-mechanized meta doesn't support the Multi-lasers.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ MBT Major Wittmann (a.k.a. Pask) w/bow Lascannon, co-axial Heavy Stubber & sponson Heavy Bolters - kills tanks/apcs/dreadnoughts and low AV squadrons d.e.a.d. and does a pretty good job against everything else. I'd love to give him PC sponsons, but... $$$$$!
Demolisher MBT w/bow Heavy Flamer & sponson Plasma Cannons - advances with the Inf. Platoon, basically using them as a buffer against meltas and assaults.
Griffon MC w/bow Heavy Flamer
I can drop various toys (Melta Bombs, Heavy Flamer -> Flamer, Pask, CES, etc.) to upgrade the SPA unit to a Manticore or enclosed Medusa w/BB, but I'm not sure it's worthwhile. Even a single, highly accurate, S6 barrage at half the price is better than 1-3 S10 that go all over the place. Isn't it?

So what do you folks think? Any suggestions within the context of my listed areas of flexibility (the stuff in yellow)?

Well...

Even though no one had any comments I've made a few modifications based on some gaming.


HQ
Col. Henryk Fox (a.k.a. Col. Straken) - Company Command Squad w/Carapace Armor, 2 Bodyguards, 2x Melta Guns, Heavy Flamer & Vox Caster - in Chimera w/Multi-laser, Heavy Stubber & Heavy Flamer

TROOPS
Veteran Squad (Fwd Sentries) w/Bolt Pistol, Plasma Gun, 2x Grenade Launchers, Lascannon & Vox Caster - objective holders and ranged ass kickers
Platoon Command Squad w/Power Fist & 4x Grenade Launchers - in Chimera w/Multi-laser, Heavy Stubber & Heavy Flamer
Infantry Platoon
Commissar Tennyson w/Power Sword
Commissar Poole w/Power Sword
Squad A w/Bolt Pistol, Power Sword, Melta Bombs, Grenade Launcher & Vox Caster
Squad B w/Bolt Pistol, Power Sword, Melta Bombs & Melta Gun
Squad C w/Bolt Pistol, Power Sword, Melta Bombs, Melta Gun & Vox Caster
Combat Engineers Squad (a.k.a. SWS) w/Demo Charge & 2x Flamers - in Vendetta
Heavy Weapons Section w/3x Autocannons (can be 3 HBs or even 3 Mortars)
Generally the Infantry Platoon will operate as a 32-man Power Blob (20 power weapon + 54 standard S4/I4 attacks on the charge) with the Company Command Squad in close proximity. Squad C could be separated out as an objective holder. PCS makes an excellent fire brigade. Those 4 GLs have more transport and skimmer kills than the rest of the army combined. The Veteran Squad can throw a tremendous amount of highly accurate firepower at short to medium ranges. So combined with the Vox and Orders they should be a major threat to any MEQ or TEQ units. The Engineers can engage any enemy artillery or objective sitters with a para-drop attack. Though they may be a better speed bump, forcing the enemy to charge and slaughter them while the blob and CCS set-up for a Furious Charge fueled counter attack. The HWS will provide support as required and will probably (maybe?) stay close to the Griffon.

FAST ATTACK
Vendetta w/Hellfury Missiles - opponent and game type will determine Scout vs. Reserve/Outflank/Deep Strike.
Reaper Gunship (vendetta w/ 3x lascannons) - pure gunship, with self imposed loss of transport capacity, based on my replacement Vulture - will set-up as above
Devil Dog w/Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber & Smoke Launchers
I can mix and match any flavor or variant of the Hellhound chassis. But I'll admit I'm very comfortable with the Devil Dog, still have some hopes for the Bane Wolf (kinda) and have been generally disappointed by Hellhounds (though I've yet to field one with a hull MM). I've the same level of options with the Valkyrie/Vendetta. The Vendetta with Hellfury Missiles is my current favorite since it gives me tl lascannons for AT work and can even maul an infantry target while moving 12". And as much as I love my Valkyries w/RPs, our local hyper-mechanized meta doesn't support the Multi-lasers. I added a gunship because when I used the Bane Wolf it only ever seemed to use the Multi-melta. And 3x tl lascannons are much more effective, particularly when they come in 30 points cheaper.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ MBT Major Wittmann (a.k.a. Pask) w/bow Lascannon, co-axial Heavy Stubber & sponson Heavy Bolters - generally makes (or allows others to make) tanks/apcs/dreadnoughts and low AV squadrons d.e.a.d. and does a pretty good job against everything else.
Executioner MBT w/bow Heavy Flamer & sponson Plasma Cannons - advances with the Inf. Platoon, basically using them as a buffer against meltas and assaults while providing serious amounts of low AP support.
Griffon MC w/bow Heavy Flamer - boy does that re-roll come in handy.
I can drop various toys (Melta Bombs, Heavy Flamer -> Flamer, Pask, CES, etc.) to upgrade the SPA unit to a Manticore or enclosed Medusa w/BB, but I'm not sure it's worthwhile. Even a single, highly accurate, S6 barrage at half the price is better than 1-3 S10 that go all over the place. Isn't it? The Demolisher was too short ranged for the Blob support role. While the Executioner only adds an extra 12" it does so with more chances to hit and is much more effective against units with INV saves.

So what do you folks think? Any suggestions within the context of my listed areas of flexibility (the stuff in yellow)?

Pask was punching holes in everything he shot at and that part was everything I could have hoped for. Sadly I rolled a ridiculous number of 1s and 2s on the damage table so I can see why a lot of folks poo-poo him. But when a tank can't shoot or move\shoot it can't stop my infantry with Melta Guns & Bombs either. The MISSile Launcher was true to it's name and the extra S and Blast never came into play. Back to my 2nd tier CCS he went.

Err... you sure your using those Grenade Launchers right? Str 6 AP 4 krak shots can only pen AV 11...so you pretty much need to roll two 6s in a row. I find it hard to believe those things can kill anything but open topped Ork Trukks with any form of consistency. Of course if your looking at the Krak Missile Launcher shots at Str 8 AP 3, yeah, those are great, but not the right weapon. Grenade Launchers suck.

Lumbering Behemoth rules say you can only fire 1 weapon plus your turret if you move. Ordnance rules say you can't fire any other weapon (including defensive weapons). Put your Heavy Stubber on your Executioner since it isn't a Ordnance weapon, so you can fire it as a defensive weapon, your turret, and a single weapon (one sponson or the hull) when you move. Only way to fire those weapons on 'Pask's' tank is if it doesn't move.

You understand your guys with Meltabombs only get one attack with any Grenade, no matter the number of attacks they would otherwise get and only hit Walkers (Dreadnaughts) on a 6, right? Sure, if you charge a vehicle that doesn't move you auto- hit, a 4+ and then 6 depending on the speed. Walkers are not vehicles though.

I question the use of the power fist in your PCS, I obviously question your use of GLs, specially with a BS 3 unit. I do not like meltabombs as that 5pts can be used to upgrade a special weapon. I question the stubbers since they allow all armor saves. Vendettas moving only allows one weapon to fire, I do not like taking off twin linked lascannons on a BS 3 vehicle for oneshot weapons, specially an ordnance weapon which means even if you don't move you can only fire 1 missile and nothing else.

I am sorry I sound skeptical, but those weapons can't be considered seriously unless your consistently rolling amazing and your opponent is rolling terrible or your just not following the rules correctly.

First let me say, And thanks ever so much for assuming I'm a complete moron with no clue how the weapons in my army work or even a basic grasp of the rules.

1) Yes, I do know that Krak Grenades are S6/AP4. I also know that since this is a game based on dice weird, "Up Yours, Laws of Probability!" things can and do occur. For me that happens to be the PCS and it's 4 GLs tearing Rhinos, Razorbacks, Chimeras and Trukks apart. I've also had them drop all 4 blasts without a single Scatter on a unit of TH/SS Terminators and kill 4 out of 5. Have I had turns where they completely miss the battlefield? Of course. But on the whole they been damned effective. For ME.

2) After you go back and read the Lumbering Behemoth rule we'll discuss this one again.

3) Again, thank you for assuming I've never bothered to read the rulebook. Regardless of only being allowed one attack per model with grenades or needing a 6 to hit a non-immobilised walker I consider that 15 points very well spent. Do you really understand how many times I'll get a chance to roll that 6 against anything short of a Blood Talon DC Furioso? Most Dreadnoughts will take millennia to chew their way thru a 32 man STUBBORN Blob. Odds are strongly in my favor that I'll roll at least one 6 long before I fail two shots at 9 or less for losing combat. And, yes. I do see the irony in my saying anything about odds considering my statement in point 1.

4) The Power Fist is in the PCS because it looks cool and it gives me a decent chance for revenge. And since I go after nearly everything else on the field anyway I may as well enjoy the 2xS. I've covered the GLs and Melta Bombs already. And while a Heavy Stubber may only be AP6 (so Orks don't get saves do they?) they are 3 more dice at 36". Vendettas are Fast vehicles and moving over 6" can only fire 1 main weapon. But since the S4 Hellfury is neither an Ordnance nor a Main weapon I can fire both of them and the Lascannons if I want while still moving ≤12". That's why I use them on the Vendetta tasked to transport the SWS.

Don't be sorry about being skeptical. But do try to be sorry about being wrong.

2) After you go back and read the Lumbering Behemoth rule we'll discuss this one again.

Oh please, enlighten me.

As for the Hellfury, I read Hellstrike, my mistake. I also stand corrected on the fast skimmer. Thank you for the corrections.

Orks do indeed get armor saves, only Kroot and Gretchen as far as I am aware do not have armor saves. Others might, but I don't own all the Codexes.

As for everything else, I stand by what I have posted. Luck is not enough to base an army off of. I am glad it is working for you. If I were you, I would buy lottery tickets.

Not sure why the obsession with grenades here. When you have lascannons, Leman russes etc in the list then you are hardly relying on grenades to kill vehicles.

I do run some grenades in my infantry blob as it gives them some kind of ranged threat as well as keeping mobile. If against an ork horde or Nid swarm having a bunch of additional GL is pretty handy. At S6 you do have a decent chance of popping armour 10.

On the list, I would prefer a hydra rather than a griffon.

Heavy weapons I think the autocannons are the best choice.

Power fist on the PCS not sure of, as they will hopefully stay in the chimera. Also, if you're going to kit units with voxes then go the whole hog and give the PCS a vox as well.

CCS I think carapace is a waste as they are in a chimera. Heavy flamer - I would rely on the chimeras and give them another melta instead. Bodyguards are expensive and I'd only consider if they were footslogging and not in a tin box.

Infantry I would go 1 30 man blob with commissar. You can then swap second commie for a priest and lose the extra vox. Remember that with HWS, SWS, PCS etc you have a large number of units that can claim objectives.

Firstly the HQ should have same weapons. You've got anti tank weapons and anti infantry these have bad synergy and do not mix. Take one or the other and definately not rip off heavy flamer.

Veteran squad is too much loads with points. If using forward sentries which gives scouts I think they will die quickly. They should be at the back of the table laying down long range fire power and should be a Infantry Squad.

Infantry Squads should have autocannons and nothing else.

Why on gods green earth have you traded the awesome twin-linked lascannons on the Vendettas for hellfury missiles? I swear they are one shot as well.

Leman Russ with Paask is costing waaay to much points. You need to stay static to fire all that and you've got a decent anti tank turret weapon anti troop heavy bolters and a expensive lascannon which hits 50/50. Drop all the crap and take the tank only.

BlkTom wrote:

2) After you go back and read the Lumbering Behemoth rule we'll discuss this one again.

Oh please, enlighten me.

Orks do indeed get armor saves, only Kroot and Gretchen as far as I am aware do not have armor saves. Others might, but I don't own all the Codexes.

Lumbering Behemoth allows you to fire the turret weapon in addition to any other weapons would normally be allowed to fire. Even if it is Ordnance. Not that you may only fire ordnance plus one other gun.
The basic Ork Boy has a 6+ save. And the Heavy Stubber is AP6.

ruminator wrote:Not sure why the obsession with grenades here. When you have lascannons, Leman russes etc in the list then you are hardly relying on grenades to kill vehicles.

I do run some grenades in my infantry blob as it gives them some kind of ranged threat as well as keeping mobile. If against an ork horde or Nid swarm having a bunch of additional GL is pretty handy. At S6 you do have a decent chance of popping armour 10.
Are you talking about Grenades (Krak & Melta) or Grenade Launchers in terms of obsession? Or a bit of both?

On the list, I would prefer a hydra rather than a griffon.
Hmmmm. For the extra range and S7 or for the anti-fast mover effect? I'd hate to give up my only barrage, but with the number of skimmers/flyers around these days...

Heavy weapons I think the autocannons are the best choice.
Agreed. I put the Heavy Bolters as an option in case someone had a compelling argument for RoF over Weight of Fire. And the Mortars just because they're cheaper and have IDF

Power fist on the PCS not sure of, as they will hopefully stay in the chimera. Also, if you're going to kit units with voxes then go the whole hog and give the PCS a vox as well.

CCS I think carapace is a waste as they are in a chimera. Heavy flamer - I would rely on the chimeras and give them another melta instead. Bodyguards are expensive and I'd only consider if they were footslogging and not in a tin box.
The PCS w/Chimera isn't really meant to spend much time giving Orders, they are generally moving about throwing 7 S6 shots, so I'd rather keep those points in the 4th GL. The Power Fist isn't very expensive, but gives me a fighting chance when facing armored enemies or anything with T5+.
As to the CCS, both the Carapace and the Bodyguards have proven themselves over and over. The improved save lets them survive basic weapons attacks, or being inside an exploding transport, plus they last much longer in HtH. And the being able to apply wounds to the guards instead of Fox(Straken) lets him live long enough to murder units that might otherwise laugh off my attacks. I keep hoping the HF will prove worthwhile. But you are right that I'd rather have the points someplace else and the 3rd Melta will return.

Infantry I would go 1 30 man blob with commissar. You can then swap second commie for a priest and lose the extra vox. Remember that with HWS, SWS, PCS etc you have a large number of units that can claim objectives.
I'm not sold on the Priest. The Commissar adds more power weapon attacks wether or not I charge. And I don't know about your experiences, but I find the blob gets charged a lot more often than it makes the charge. Mostly because FR-F!, SR-F!'s 72 las shots is so damned appealing. The 2nd Vox is mainly insurance for Objective games, but you are right that I've probably got enough scoring units.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercer wrote:Firstly the HQ should have same weapons. You've got anti tank weapons and anti infantry these have bad synergy and do not mix. Take one or the other and definately not rip off heavy flamer.
Already making the change.
Veteran squad is too much loads with points. If using forward sentries which gives scouts I think they will die quickly. They should be at the back of the table laying down long range fire power and should be a Infantry Squad.
I put them in Cover and rely on that 3++ save and their BS4 to let them do their job. So far so good.

Infantry Squads should have autocannons and nothing else.
In a Power Blob? Really?

Why on gods green earth have you traded the awesome twin-linked lascannons on the Vendettas for hellfury missiles? I swear they are one shot as well.
Because I use that Vendetta as a transport and I can still fire the lascannons and both missiles while moving 12". If I move 12" in the triple lascannon I can fire 1 lascannon. Sure they are single shot, but they have a 72" range and a large blast that ignores cover.

Leman Russ with Paask is costing waaay to much points. You need to stay static to fire all that and you've got a decent anti tank turret weapon anti troop heavy bolters and a expensive lascannon which hits 50/50. Drop all the crap and take the tank only.
Pask is BS4, so those weapons hit on 3+. For 50 points I'll now throw 1 S10, 1 S9 ORD LB, 6 S6 and 3 S5 shots. What happens to the AV10-11 vehicle or squadron I just targeted? And with his shortest range weapon reaching out 36" I really don't care if I have to stay still to do it.

The hellfury is just bad compared to the MRP valkyrie... Even if you ignore cover, the only things that you can hurt and ignore the armour of is Ork Boyz, Kroot and Grots. AP6 and ignore cover is pretty bad, considering it's one shot and costs the same as two MRPs on a Valkyrie which can fire every turn but doesn't ignore cover.

Also Pask is way overbloated and immobile. He only gets Crack Shot when he's not moving, and seeing as your Pask tank costs as much as a Land Raider but has nowhere near the survivability, I think that it would be a big target for my anti tank units, especially in a tournament setting, where you are guaranteed that a few vendettas and meltagunners will be running to him.

It doesn't matter if he's BS4 or can pump out crazy shots if he just gets chain stunned/shaken, then blown up with a meltagun or in assault....

I choose the Vendetta with Hellfury over the Valkyrie with Rocket Pods because the twin linked Lascannon seems to be a better option against all the heavily mechanized armies I see on the table top. I lose out against Orks and Bugs, but how many times will the Valkyrie actually get to fire those pods? And if the opponent is mech-ed up marines or guard? That tl-lascannon will certainly be a better choice.

I'll admit Pask is expensive and risky. But I'll happily trade blows with a Land Raider. After all I'll have a much better chance of penetrating AV14 than he will since my two shots would be S9 (roll two and take highest) and S10. PotMS lets him "ignore" shaken and stunned, but if I've set up properly I should get the first shot. After all it's not like the Leman Russ has to advance to drop off those expensive models hiding inside it's hull. So I can either set up for a shot outside the range of Lascannons or wait till he's moved and pull out from behind 100% cover. It's not my fault GW made damned sure that the Guard's MBT is only so-so at taking out other tanks.

That one TL lascannon is a massive waste for 130 points... When I field valkyries, I often find that I shoot every turn with the MRPs, since I often have enough AT to rip out any unit out of their transports (lascannon and autocannon teams are pretty good at that...)

A Leman Russ with Pask has a very bad chance of winning against a standard Land Raider, you can both trade blows all you want, but the the Land Raider will not be engaging the Leman Russ, what will be engaging the Russ as I said is meltagunners or broadside teams, they will wreck your day.

I'm also not suggesting that your Leman Russ is taking the same role as a Land Raider, although the Land Raider is far better than that Pask tank that you've taken for utility.

If you want it to be a powerful AT tank, take a vanquisher, it's still not great, but Pask makes it slightly better for AT. Also you can't take a co-axial heavy stubber with the standard Russ, only conquerors and Vanquishers can take them from the IA list, and if you take them, you can't put Pask in them, since he's not part of the IA list option.

Anyway, what I'm not getting is why you're taking all these unoptimized choices then saying you want this list for tournament play? No offense but most of these choices are awful when you compare them to the more focused choices that litter the tournament scene. As an earlier poster said, you can't just rely on luck, especially if you're playing to win, and if not, why ask for advice to optimize your list?

I see your point on Pask. He's very expensive and adds little beyond BS4 based on the shear variety of targets on the field. The Melta gunners don't worry me (too much, since they have to get thru the rest of the army to get in range) and there's not a damned thing I can do about Broadsides besides set-up behind cover. But that'd be true even if I brought a zero upgrades Russ.

I get the need for optimized units. But if I take only units that are "perfect" won't I end up with a pretty damned dull cookie cutter list? I really don't want to have a Cloaked Commissar Lord and then cut-n-paste Mech units till I run out of points. I know that's not really what you are suggesting, but it's certainly what I'd like to avoid.

So, assuming those conditions is there any way to make use of the units I've chosen without just being an auto-fail?

Lumbering Behemoth rules say you can only fire 1 weapon plus your turret if you move.

Lumbering Behemoth allows you to fire the turret weapon in addition to any other weapons would normally be allowed to fire. Even if it is Ordnance. Not that you may only fire ordnance plus one other gun.

And...?

OK... lets break this down.
you move with a ordnance weapon
Normal rule is you can only fire 1 weapon if you move 6", LB allows you to fire your turret and any other weapons you would normally be allowed to fire. Thus, you can only fire 1 weapon and your turret weapon. You can not fire any defensive weapons if you fire your ordnance weapon. Thus you can move and not fire your ordnance weapon to fire your defensive weapon and one other weapon, or you can fire your ordnance weapon and any one other weapon.

you don't move with an ordnance weapon
Normal rule is you can not fire any other weapons if you fire your Ordnance weapon. LB says now you can so you can now fire all of your weapons, including defensive.

you move without a ordnance weapon
You fire one weapon, your turret weapon, and any defensive weapons.

you don't move without a ordnance weapon
You may fire all your weapons.

I really hope that you are not firing all of your weapons whenever you moved.

Sanguinary Dan wrote:I see your point on Pask. He's very expensive and adds little beyond BS4 based on the shear variety of targets on the field. The Melta gunners don't worry me (too much, since they have to get thru the rest of the army to get in range) and there's not a damned thing I can do about Broadsides besides set-up behind cover. But that'd be true even if I brought a zero upgrades Russ.

I get the need for optimized units. But if I take only units that are "perfect" won't I end up with a pretty damned dull cookie cutter list? I really don't want to have a Cloaked Commissar Lord and then cut-n-paste Mech units till I run out of points. I know that's not really what you are suggesting, but it's certainly what I'd like to avoid.

So, assuming those conditions is there any way to make use of the units I've chosen without just being an auto-fail?

I'm not saying that you need a cookie cutter list of 2x manticore and 2x hydra, it's just a lot of unit choices make little tactical sense. For example, mixing in the grenade launchers, plasma guns and lascannons is similiar to mixing in a sniper rifle and flamer. While not as bad as the latter choice, the plasma gun adds little to when you want the lascannon shooting a tank, and the grenade launchers add little to when you want to shoot at terminators and heavy infantry. It would have been far better to go for 3 grenade launchers and an autocannon, so that unit excels at anti infantry/anti light armour, rather than going for a unit that's average at dealing with multiple targets, as when you do that, you're just relying on luck, and it limits your tactical options.

What I'm saying is that in games where your opponent plays tactically, and has a more efficient army (especially in a tournament setting), it's very difficult to tactically outmaneuver your enemy with confused units, especially with Imperial Guard. Let's say a unit of Khorne Berzerkers (10 man) in a Land Raider moves in to attack your power blob, you have only 4 rather static Meltaguns to stop it dead, so you're relying on the suped up Russ and a few lascannons to stop it. A squad of Berzerkers will statistically murder the power blob completely (60+ attacks hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+). That unit costs less than the powerblob and the Leman Russ, and you don't really have anything to guarantee that it dies before it hits your lines (the only thing that has a chance really is the CCS in the Chimera, but that too is overbloated in points and moving it forward to deal with the Land Raider will most likely guarantee that it dies first).

I don't think that you should just copy and paste netlists, but simply tone down the upgrades, and reallocate guns so that when a unit shoots, it shoots it dead, rather than it shoots, but only does superficial damage...

Ah. I think I see the issue. You are saying that while LB allows you to fire additional weapon/s you are also saying that Ordnance does not allow you to fire even defensive weapons. You can't have it both ways. Lumbering Behemoth is a Codex special rule and so always takes precedence over whatever BRB rule it modifies. So you can indeed move, shoot the Battle Cannon + 1 main weapon + any defensive weapons.

I will say that I seem to have thought you were saying that the Russ could only fire one weapon in addition to the Battle Cannon regardless of movement. So my initial response was a bit rude. Sorry.

BlkTom wrote:

Lumbering Behemoth rules say you can only fire 1 weapon plus your turret if you move.

Lumbering Behemoth allows you to fire the turret weapon in addition to any other weapons would normally be allowed to fire. Even if it is Ordnance. Not that you may only fire ordnance plus one other gun.

And...?

OK... lets break this down.
you move with a ordnance weapon
Normal rule is you can only fire 1 weapon if you move 6", LB allows you to fire your turret and any other weapons you would normally be allowed to fire. Thus, you can only fire 1 weapon and your turret weapon. You can not fire any defensive weapons if you fire your ordnance weapon. Thus you can move and not fire your ordnance weapon to fire your defensive weapon and one other weapon, or you can fire your ordnance weapon and any one other weapon.

you don't move with an ordnance weapon
Normal rule is you can not fire any other weapons if you fire your Ordnance weapon. LB says now you can so you can now fire all of your weapons, including defensive.

you move without a ordnance weapon
You fire one weapon, your turret weapon, and any defensive weapons.

you don't move without a ordnance weapon
You may fire all your weapons.

I really hope that you are not firing all of your weapons whenever you moved.

Accepted.
And thank you for /your/ clarification, I stand corrected. I did not know the codex rule over writes the BRB rule so that defensive weapontry could be fired with an Ordnance weapon. One of the reasons why I am here, to keep learning the rules myself to get them ironed out.

Sanguinary Dan wrote:
Veteran squad is too much loads with points. If using forward sentries which gives scouts I think they will die quickly. They should be at the back of the table laying down long range fire power and should be a Infantry Squad.
I put them in Cover and rely on that 3++ save and their BS4 to let them do their job. So far so good.

You don't get a 3++ (invulnerable) you get a 3+ cover save which is different. The Veterans cannot do they job as they have the wrong mix of weapons which is bad synergy. You've got a plasma gun for light armour and heavy infantry, grenade launchers for light armour light infantry and lascannon for anti armour and monstrous creatures. Doesn't go together. Even with 3+ cover save kill enough and force a morale and they run off. Veterans do not belong or suit this setup, they belong with the same mass special weapons. The only way this would work is with meltas for some form of alpha strike if possible and if you could get close enough or plasmas which is possible.

Infantry Squads should have autocannons and nothing else.
In a Power Blob? Really?

Ask yourself that question. Your platoons are sitting there doing nothing waiting to be charged. You won't charge anything as it will take you too long to get across the board. You're best laying down long range fire support and then use the unit to tarpit and hack away at something or counter charge.

Why on gods green earth have you traded the awesome twin-linked lascannons on the Vendettas for hellfury missiles? I swear they are one shot as well.
Because I use that Vendetta as a transport and I can still fire the lascannons and both missiles while moving 12". If I move 12" in the triple lascannon I can fire 1 lascannon. Sure they are single shot, but they have a 72" range and a large blast that ignores cover.

You're using the Vendetta wrong and not getting the point of it. Why would you trade the minimal anti tank you have (SP AP2 twin-linked) for a single one shot S4 large blast? You want to do that get a Valkyrie which is a better transport option. You don't want to move the Vendetta, it should be at the back of the table firing mass lascannons. Oh, ignoring cover for AP5 shot isn't anything to be worried about.

Leman Russ with Paask is costing waaay to much points. You need to stay static to fire all that and you've got a decent anti tank turret weapon anti troop heavy bolters and a expensive lascannon which hits 50/50. Drop all the crap and take the tank only.
Pask is BS4, so those weapons hit on 3+. For 50 points I'll now throw 1 S10, 1 S9 ORD LB, 6 S6 and 3 S5 shots. What happens to the AV10-11 vehicle or squadron I just targeted? And with his shortest range weapon reaching out 36" I really don't care if I have to stay still to do it.

@Mercer: So let me see if I understand your points on the various units.

Veterans: When facing shooting (other than against flamers and maybe 1 or 2 other weapons) is there any real difference between a 3+ Cover save and a 3+ Invulnerable save? And I truly fail to see a lack in synergy in the weapons. None are shorter ranged than 24", all have at least S6 (perfectly acceptable for taking out transports and any infantry type), 3 of 4 have blasts or multiple shots, and so on. Synergy does not require the weapons to be identical or to have the exact same function. Unless I misunderstand the term at least. Honestly, this assumption that Veterans are wasted unless you've got 3 Melta/Plasma and are doing drive by attacks from the back of a Chimera puzzles me to no end.

Blob: Different strokes for different folks. Some armies I'll sit back and wait till they come to me and some I'll go out and close on. But spending 30 points on some BS3 Autocannons that won't get used all that often doesn't make sense to me. I've tried heavy weapons in the blob before and always felt I was wasting the anti-infantry potential of the guardsmen when I spent a turn shooting the big guns.

Vendetta: Since the Vendetta w/missiles costs the same as a Valkyrie w/rockets I'm not all that worried if it doesn't work out over the course of my next dozen or so games. I'll just swap it. But as I've said before the Multi-laser isn't all that impressive based on the amount of hyper-meched armies I run into. But the twin lascannon is a whole different beastie. And against Orks, little Bugs, Guardians (Warlock gives you a Cover save you say? ) and other IG the Hellfury works a treat.

Pask: I know. Really, I get it. But I'm not bringing him just for -1" scatter. I'm bringing him for that +1 penetration (even a scattered BC shot can now hurt a Rhino/Razorback) and hitting with the other guns on a 3+.

I appreciate the help. And heaven knows that if I get my tail handed to me a lot I'll at least know why.

I think it's universally accepted that Hellhound > Vendetta w/hellfury for killing infantry and denying cover saves.

Face it, the hellfury is AP6, only the cheapest of the cheap infantry have a 6+ save or less. Also if you only plan on having a Valkyrie shooting only once per game, then I think it's more of a tactical blunder on your own part rather than the Valkyrie being worse than the Vendetta for anti infantry. As for the twin linked lascannon? One rerollable shot is never something to count on, especially when you could have 3. You said yourself that mech is the meta, why not simply have those 3 lascannons have a nearly guaranteed chance to kill the transports while something else deals with the squishy contents? Making the Vendetta ok but not great at killing infantry while also making it so-so at killing tanks isn't the best way to use the vendetta.

As for special weapons, there's very little special weapon combos that synergize well at different targets. Take your choice so far, the grenade launchers and plasma guns do not synergize. One is good at taking on TEQ, while the other is a generalist that is good against light armour (AV10 only) and semi decent against infantry. While admittedly, they can both be effective against light armour, the grenade launchers stink at killing TEQ, and the plasma and lascannon shot are generally a waste when shooting against hordes of infantry.
Also it's really not hard to get a fast moving/deepstriking flamer next to a static unit of veterans. One puff and it's likely that 2/3 of the unit is going up in flames.

Also, what kind of mech do you usually play against? If you play against Mechdar or Mech guard I'd strongly recommend taking the extra lascannons on the vendetta as AV12 is fairly tough to deal with just autocannons. Being only able to effectively stun/shake 2-3 vehicles at range in this list isn't going to be helpful when there's 12+ tanks at 2000 points.

Dude, drop the Hellfury missles and just go 3x TL Lascannons. Hellfury just sucks. As said by Snarky.

Firstly, the Hellfury is AP5. It's the MRP that is AP6. So it's very effective against any of the targets I listed above. Secondly, if I take the triple las as my transport model I can only fire one gun if I move fast enough to actual get my SWS across the board faster than if they walk. So anyway I slice it the triple makes a lousy transport.

As to the mix of Special Weapons in the Veteran Squad, let's just agree to disagree. I will never go with 3 Melta/Plasma. I like the perceived flexibility, and low cost of GLs. And really don't mind if they can't kill every Terminator they hit. Because if I drop a pair of S3 blasts on an Ork Mob at 22" I'm a lot happier than if I might get a pair of S7 hits. Not to mention the 20 points I've saved for some other unit.

You tell em, Foxie.

Sanguinary Dan wrote:@Mercer: So let me see if I understand your points on the various units.

Veterans: When facing shooting (other than against flamers and maybe 1 or 2 other weapons) is there any real difference between a 3+ Cover save and a 3+ Invulnerable save? And I truly fail to see a lack in synergy in the weapons. None are shorter ranged than 24", all have at least S6 (perfectly acceptable for taking out transports and any infantry type), 3 of 4 have blasts or multiple shots, and so on. Synergy does not require the weapons to be identical or to have the exact same function. Unless I misunderstand the term at least. Honestly, this assumption that Veterans are wasted unless you've got 3 Melta/Plasma and are doing drive by attacks from the back of a Chimera puzzles me to no end.

Well yeah there's a massive difference. You get cover denying weapons and in combat cover saves don't work. Your own example of a flamer is perfect of why 3+ cover and 3+ invulnerable is a big difference.

You misunderstand the term on synergy. You're right about don't have to be all the same weapon, but they need to work together and do the same job. So as I've already said you've got lascannon for tank, then plasma for heavy infantry and light armour and then grenade launcher for very light armour and infantry so you have a mix of anti tank and anti infantry weapons. Having 3 plasmas/meltas and Chimeras is nothing to do with it, it's getting your weapons right and matched up for the right job. Against tanks your lascannon will be supreme, plasma ok-ish and grenade launcher pale - you'll find most armour is armour 12 so grenade is glancing and plasma needs a 6+ to penetrate. You'll also find people take the same weapon in Chimeras because a. all weapons are different for Veterans and b. mech is king.

Blob: Different strokes for different folks. Some armies I'll sit back and wait till they come to me and some I'll go out and close on. But spending 30 points on some BS3 Autocannons that won't get used all that often doesn't make sense to me. I've tried heavy weapons in the blob before and always felt I was wasting the anti-infantry potential of the guardsmen when I spent a turn shooting the big guns.

No one is going to come to you if they are smart. They know they will get tied down in combat and the only thing which can fight of those blobs is another horde i.e Tyranids or Orks. A smart player would shoot them down with blast templates, rock up with flamers or just plainly ignore them. Then your blob becomes a waste sitting there doing nothing.

Vendetta: Since the Vendetta w/missiles costs the same as a Valkyrie w/rockets I'm not all that worried if it doesn't work out over the course of my next dozen or so games. I'll just swap it. But as I've said before the Multi-laser isn't all that impressive based on the amount of hyper-meched armies I run into. But the twin lascannon is a whole different beastie. And against Orks, little Bugs, Guardians (Warlock gives you a Cover save you say? ) and other IG the Hellfury works a treat.

You're not getting the point Dan. Vendetta = anti tank and extremely good buy and Valkyrie = quality anti troop. Multi laser isn't awesome against vehicles which makes my point why you've got a grenade launcher in Veteran units. Lascannon is good for anti tank as you've made out and if that's the case why switch it for single shot anti troop weapons? Erm, pointless. Doesn't matter about cover saves, you have single shots and blast so if you scatter tough luck no more shooting for you.

Pask: I know. Really, I get it. But I'm not bringing him just for -1" scatter. I'm bringing him for that +1 penetration (even a scattered BC shot can now hurt a Rhino/Razorback) and hitting with the other guns on a 3+.

Battlecannon can hurt a Rhino anyway on a 3+ so that's not a good arguement. Also Pask for 50 points isn't worth it as already mentioned.

I appreciate the help. And heaven knows that if I get my tail handed to me a lot I'll at least know why.

Not to found arsey here, but do you? It seems that everyone who has given you feedback in this thread including myself you've just argued against and made poor defenses why you've taken certain choices. There's some good feedback in here and I'd take it on board or else you'll only succeed in certain games and those weaknesses will soon come apparent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sanguinary Dan wrote:Firstly, the Hellfury is AP5. It's the MRP that is AP6. So it's very effective against any of the targets I listed above. Secondly, if I take the triple las as my transport model I can only fire one gun if I move fast enough to actual get my SWS across the board faster than if they walk. So anyway I slice it the triple makes a lousy transport.

As to the mix of Special Weapons in the Veteran Squad, let's just agree to disagree. I will never go with 3 Melta/Plasma. I like the perceived flexibility, and low cost of GLs. And really don't mind if they can't kill every Terminator they hit. Because if I drop a pair of S3 blasts on an Ork Mob at 22" I'm a lot happier than if I might get a pair of S7 hits. Not to mention the 20 points I've saved for some other unit.

That's why you don't use Vendetta as a transport and use Valkyries or either Chimeras.

You also don't get flexibility with mixed weapons.

I honestly do appreciate the feedback and arguments. I've made multiple tweaks to my list based on the information provided here. I imagine some things are purely philosophical differences and those things I'm not likely to ever change. The Vendetta being a prime example.

But to get into specifics on other bits, what weapons would you suggest I put in the Vet squad? Assume I want them to stay as ranged support. Melta Guns would seem pointless, not enough reach. And multiple Plasma Guns are horrendously expensive. So...

For the HS slots if I drop Pask where do I go from there?

Ranged support, well plasma and autocannon are both S7 and do great for anti troop and light armour. Only difference is range, but single shot plasma at 24" is half the table already and then some if you start 12". The problem you'll find it most the weapons Veterans have access too just won't mix.

Here's an example of overbloated upgrades.

Losing Pask, the heavy stubbers on all tanks and the plasma/heavy bolter sponsons saves you 150 points. That's the price of a whole Leman Russ, on upgrades that are questionable in use in the first place (except perhaps the plasma sponsons).