First turn reserving

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**daedalus-templarius**

So, I've seen this method talked about to avoid a really shooty army's first turn alpha strike, coming in on your edge for your movement phase, but I can't seem to find in the rulebook where this is laid out. I assume this isn't like a regular reserve move, as in, you have to roll for reserves, since you are just coming in on your turn.

Is this in the BRB and I'm just blind?

**insaniak**

Not really sure what you're asking.

If you're asking how it's possible to keep units in Reserve and move them on first turn, the answer would be that you can't, exactly... you can play Marines with Drop Pods (although that's bringing them on via Drop Pod assault rather than coming on from the board edge) or the Dawn Of War mission (in which case units not deployed or kept in reserve are moved on in the first turn).

**Thaanos**

Dawn of War Deployment, you deploy with up to two troops choices and one HQ on the table, while the rest comes in from your table edge on turn one. Anything else which you don't bring in on turn one, comes in via regular reserve rolls.

**daedalus-templarius**

Yea, I guess I must have been misinterpreting what some of the posters in http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/372757.page were saying.

I guess if you did want to do something like that, you'd have to use actual reserve rules!

Thanks for the quick clarification.

**cgmckenzie**

I saw somebody try to reserve their entire army for walk on. They were playing eldar, who went first. The eldar jetbiked to the opponents edge and sat their, blocking the reserves from coming in and winning the game in turn 2.

Really sorta funny to watch.

-cgmckenzie

**nosferatu1001**

Only if the opponent had no tanks, JI or Skimmers....

**Amanax**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Only if the opponent had no tanks, JI or Skimmers....

Actually, there is a deployment style outlined in DoPs Dark Eldar guide that states how to block out JI and Skimmers. Tank only armies are easy to block with Eldar and Dark Eldar.

**nosferatu1001**

You cannot block tanks, as they simply tank shock on

You cannot cover the board to stop a fast skimmer coming on, unless you can make a wall 24" deep along the entire long edge.

**Amanax**

nosferatu1001 wrote:You cannot block tanks, as they simply tank shock on

You cannot cover the board to stop a fast skimmer coming on, unless you can make a wall 24" deep along the entire long edge.

Well, see that is where you are only mostly correct. Yes, they can tank shock, however, in the faq it states that if the tank stops for any reason with any part off the table edge, it is destroyed. This includes stopping to resolve the tank shock. So, easy block.

As for skimmers, they are a bit harder - They can't land their tanks within 1" of one of your tanks. With the size of Eldar vehicles you can spread out to make that virtually impossible.

This is of course assuming you are yourself playing a full mech army. I wouldn't attempt this with less than 10 skimmers of your own.

For further details on the technique and placement here is the link to DoPs guide - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/357250.page

Under deployment, start reading from the "Two additional notes on enemy reserves:" which is several paragraphs below the pictures for deployment.

**insaniak**

Amanax wrote:Well, see that is where you are only mostly correct. Yes, they can tank shock, however, in the faq it states that if the tank stops for any reason with any part off the table edge, it is destroyed. This includes stopping to resolve the tank shock. So, easy block.

Stopping to resolve the tank shock isn't the tank stopping... it's the game stopping to resolve an action. The tank's movement is still ongoing.

**nosferatu1001**

Amanax - reread your BRB FAQ and the Tank Shock rules

You move the tank, pause to resolve, then finish movement. The FAQ requires anything finishing its move off the table to be destroyed, but you havent finished the move. No "easy block" there.

Yes, you cannot land within 24", however you need a lot of vehicles, normally meaning a >2000 point game. At that point a standard 6x4 table starts to get a little small.

**Amanax**

And you obviously need to re-read your basic BRB. Seriously.

Under the ramming section on pg 69, final paragraph it states:

Both Players roll for armour penetration against their enemy vehicle and ny result is immediately applied. If the vehicle that is rammed is not removed, the rammer halts. However, if the rammed vehicle is removed because it suffers a "destroyed - explodes!" damage result, the rammer continues is move, until it reaches its maximum move distance or another enemy (which it will tank shock or ram again!).

So no, unless it explodes the tank, it stops. No ifs, no ands, no buts. Unless you destroy the vehicle, you stop, your vehicle hangs off the edge, it dies along with whatever was inside.

Also, pg 71 under ramming a skimmer (also the last paragraph of that page) it states

Skimmers may try to dodge out of the way of tanks attempting to ram them (as long as the ramming tank is not also a skimmer). The ramming tank stops in contact with the skimmer as normal, but then, if the player controlling the skimmer wants to dodge, he rolls a D6. On a 1 or 2 the collision proceeds as normal. On a 3+ the skimmer avoids the tank, neither vehicles suffers any damage, and the ramming tank stops in its tracks (literally!), its crew confused and disappointed

Now, going to the errata, the only things for the skimmer player are that a skimmer has to not be immobilized or stunned to try to dodge. That doesn't much apply, as the opponent won't have any models on the field. As for the rest of it... Quoted from the errata -

Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves perform a tank shock? (p68)
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move along with its direction and move the tank onto the board that many inches, measuring from the board edge as for a normal from reserve. The tank shock is performed as usual. However, if the tank is forced to stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count as destroyed and are removed from play.

I am sorry, I did misunderstand for a moment about it, (stating that it was during the resolving process that the tank was destroyed) and I was incorrect on that matter. Thank you for correcting that, however... As you can see, the technique is actually not that difficult, especially considering that in a 1500 point game, I as an Eldar player can fit 9 - 10 skimmers into my force. That isn't all that hard to spread them across your table edge to block you off. You don't need to be at 2K to do it. Is it a sure thing? No. But I would be surprised not to watch 3/4 of your army vanish into thin air, and odds are, more than that will.

**nosferatu1001**

Wow. Just wow. Apparently you've done a complete change, and hoping that righteous indignation will gloss over that glaring "mistake" (to be generous) on your part

Tanks shock is not the same thing as a ram.

So, to answer your points:

Notice how it says "continues" moving, meaning your line about interrupting to resolve EITHER a tank shock or you now suddenly changed your mind because you were wrong Ram meaning an auto destroy is fail.

Yes, if you decide to ram any skimmers blocking the edge you're in trouble unless you destroy the vehicle. And? We were talking about tank shock initially.

9 - 10 skimmers is not sufficient to block the entire board edge AND extend 24" (well, 23") back to block behind as well.

**Amanax**

Some people get caught up on the oddest things...

Yes, we were using the words "tank shock" however, we were talking about vehicles. You don't tank shock vehicles, you ram them. I mean, come on? >_>

Saying we were talking about tank shock initially just tells me how incompetent you are with the rules of fifth edition. A tank shock, and a ram, are essentially the same thing, with different targets of the vehicle movement. Calling them something different is merely for our own benefit. A tank shock, if it comes into contact with a vehicle, becomes a ram (pg 68 right hand side middle paragraph, first line). Therefor, the terminology (when speaking about vehicles) shouldn't matter. Saying we were talking about "tank shock" originally, and not referring to ram would suggest that you can somehow get your infantry models to move 36" in two movement phases. Impressive, to say the least

I admitted to my mistake. I am still new to fifth edition (and am open and honest about it) and when I started playing the game, we didn't even own a rulebook. I was lead to believe a false ruling about this tactic, but upon the research I have done, I found my mistakes and clarified/remade my case. However, the timing has little effect on the outcome. A normal tank entering play from the table edge must attempt to ram a vehicle so long as it is (I believe, and I may be wrong on this one) due to the fact that you would not be able to enter the table edge without being within 1" of an enemy vehicle yourself. After which, you will need to not only attempt the ram versus your opponent, but they will then need to not only fail a 3+ save, but you will also need to have enough power in your ram (which, you will have only 1" movement with good placement, which will give you a S5 hit from an AV 14 vehicle... against my AV 12 hull. Good luck). Simply put, you lose without an effort.

As for the skimmers, I'm so glad that you didn't even bother to read the article and paragraph I designated. Let me go copy paste to save you some effort shall I?

Two additional notes on enemy reserves:
1. If your enemy reserves their army and isn't skimmer based, make sure that when their turn 2 starts, your entire army is flat-out, and that *everything* has a 4+ save regardless of its position on the board. Additionally, play around with your vehicles, their contents and a table edge. If you have enough vehicles, you can line their table edge in two turns - at which point non-skimmers are automatically destroyed. While the GW FAQ 1.1 allows players to tank shock onto the board, it also notes that if a unit stops with any part of it off the board, it counts as destroyed. A rhino attempting to ram a skimmer from off the table stops 1" away from the raider to resolve the ramming attack. IE, it has stopped and is still not on the table. Personally, if my opponent fully reserves in this situation and hasn't inspired my ire with a bad attitude thus far (while the game is beginning), I'll tell them what I plan to do after they announce that they are fully reserving, show them the FAQ and the clarification if it comes up, and tell them that I don't want to win like that - so ask them to deploy on the table anyway.
2. If your enemy *is* skimmer based (Eldar and Dark Eldar) you can use roughly the same strategy - except that you flat out your vehicles in a checkerboard pattern *near* their table edge. I don't have a picture of this to show, but the goal is for enemy reserves to not be able to move onto their table edge, and have to fly over you to get onto the table - more than 12", so that they don't get to fire anyway. Alpha-strike denial. If you haven't done this before, play around with your models near a table edge to get a feel for the pattern and unit dispersal you need to accomplish it. Dayve110 added a sample picture on page 2, which isn't quite what I was after...the picture I'm trying to draw would look like a large scale of this:
-- __ -- __ -- __

Basically, picture a wave serpent. 5-6" long? Roughly the same across? Checkerboarding across the enemy backfield is putting your vehicles down in a pattern that doesn't leave enough room for a wave serpent to deploy onto the table and still be 1" away from you. IE, 6-7" gaps. I'd have to get out models and set this up to get exact dimensions...but If you have a wall of vehicles roughly 4" from the board edge, roughly 4" apart from each other(ish), and a second wall offset to the first one several inches behind the first one, there are big gaps between your vehicles, but none big enough to fit a wave serpent while staying 1" away from all your stuff. The second set of vehicles in the offset pattern don't need to flat-out to get there on turn two in most instances, so you can actually deploy infantry to help gap-fill - troops that can't be tank-shocked without ramming a vehicle in the first row....which can dodge on a 3+, and which would remove the wave serpent and its contents from play if it didn't explode your raider. If I'm motivated I'll set this up on a table and take a picture of it in the future. Reserve denial, call it the Dash Denial, whatever.

You don't need to place a "wall" across the entire board against skimmers. You just need to place enough to keep them at that 1" range, which isn't all that hard given fast skimmer movement.

**somerandomdude**

Amanax wrote:Yes, we were using the words "tank shock" however, we were talking about vehicles.

Actually:

cgmckenzie wrote:I saw somebody try to reserve their entire army for walk on. They were playing eldar, who went first. The eldar jetbiked to the opponents edge and sat their, blocking the reserves from coming in and winning the game in turn 2.

Really sorta funny to watch.

-cgmckenzie

Looks like nos was responding to being blocked by jetbikes originally, which is what you replied to...

**nosferatu1001**

nosferatu1001 wrote:You cannot block tanks, as they simply tank shock on

Odd that I thought we were discussing tank shock. This is the first time tank shock is mentioned. Suddenly you're talking about rams.

Ram is a subset of tank shock. We were also NOT talking just about vehicles - reread your post, and note that it talks about Eldar and DE, who normally block edges using cheap and cheerful jet bikes / debussed troops.

So, fail twice for you.

Also: before saying I am bad with 5th ed rules: have a look at my posting history and notice how often I am wrong on rules. I'm not perfect, however I am very, very good with the rules, and (as I've shown repeatedly just here) I've pointed out your mistakes more than once.

Oh dear, just noticed you have made yet another "mistake" - althuogh this is being generous. If you declare you are tank shocking, it does NOT become a ram if it makes contact with a vehicle. That is literally impossible, as you MUST remain 1" away from vehicles when tank shocking. You are possibly thinking of the other way round - if you declare a Ram, and it would intersect non-vehicles, you additionally tank shock those. But the converse isnt true, at all. If you believe it to be so, you have committed a gross error in logic.

You dont need to get infantry moving 36". Reaver bikes do that in 1 turn. Cheap guardian bikes happily get to the opponents edge in 2. And so on. Again, you are either mistaken or being disingenuous. Neither is a good way to run a rules argument.

The point you copy and pasted simply reiterates you earlier mistake: no, when you stop the rhino to resolve the RAM it is not destroyed there and then, as you imply. You also stated you could stop an entire fast skimmer army getting on, which I pointed out to be highly unlikely (espeically at 1500)

So, go and reread, and note you have made numerous mistakes, probably due to you being new to 5th ed. I am currently correct on all counts.

**insaniak**

How about both of you take a step back and remember to breathe, and we all get on with our lives.

Toy soldiers, people. Not worth flinging insults around over.