Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've been thinking, after doing some history assignments at school about the ANZUS Treaty (The Australia, New Zealand, United States Security Treaty), and how America, upon Australian invoking the ANZUS treaty, has not come to our aid, would America actually give a damn about us? My understanding is Australia isnt very powerful at all, hell its struggling to pay for 5.56 NATO ammunition at the moment, and that we would not stand up in a fight.

Are we even a valuable enough ally, or would we simply be a necessary loss? Were just over 200 years old, we dont have any nuclear weapons that I know of, our soldiers are well trained but we are lacking in numbers, and America, even under pledge, under oath, has already proven to us that the ANZUS treaty means squat. Do we even matter? If say, Japan attacked us again, would America simply take advantage of that? What would they really do?

All pure speculation, of course.

Damn! He knows to much! Send in Seal Team 6. Jaon has become to much of a threat.

Anyway, before your head is popped like a watermelon thanks to a 50 cal round from a sniper on the apartment next to you, I figure that maybe we are in a crisis ourselves. We kind of don't have the money to help, and the House is cockblocked because of the Dem/Rep issue in the house and the senate. We want to help, we just are to fething lazy to.

And on the topic of whether we would crush you like the bugs you are, NO. We value our allies, and Australia has a amazing Navy. Oh, and we are getting rid of our nukes.

Well Japan is banned from having a military force(they have a protection force).

But I would say if Australia got invaded by a country like Indonesia the USA would do something about it.

As for China.... hmmm maybe not.

At the stage we are good friends with China so lets hope they don't try to invade.

I think our closest ally to rely on would be New Zealand. And New Zealand gave the US the finger over the ANZUS treaty years ago.

I can't imagine a situation where the US wouldn't side with Australia in the case of a war, unless Australia was acting pretty aggressively. The only point of interest would be the relationship with Indonesia, which has caused the US and Australia to clash diplomatically beforehand.

Sorry, Games Workshop has forbidden all outside aide to Australia...

What do you mean that America, under pledge, under oath, has already proven that the ANZUS treaty means squat? What are you referring to?

I would think that yes, the US would come to Australia's aid, considering a few months ago Hillary was in country to sign some defense agreements and to discuss the possibility of stationing USAF/USN assets in Australia (heres hoping for a USAF base in Australia!). Australia is actually vital to our interests in the area (mainly in helping to contain China), plus you're buying up our weapons and planes, etc.

If it makes you feel any better, my guess is popular opinion in the states would be to get in line behind you guys and do anything and everything we could to assist. The American public seems to hold Aussies in pretty high regard for the most part. I've certainly never heard (or heard of) an American badmouthing the country or its people.

By no means chaos0xoomega! We love americans just as much as they love us, point is, I dont know exactly what I am referring to, but my history teacher specifically said we have invoked the ANZUS treaty before, and Uncle Sam has given us the finger! I'm sure a quick google search would find exactly what it was.


Chowderhead...I didnt actually believe when I heard at first that America was getting rid of its nukes!?!?! Sure, theres nothing I'd want more than a world without weapons of mass destruction, but theres nothing I want less than a world with an America without weapons of mass destruction! America is a super power for a reason, and what happens when you take away the reason NOT to attack them (apart from the obvious fact that they use Apaches ) ?

Wont countries who retain their nukes be able to blackmail USA? Shouldnt USA just hide them away in some bunker for the time when they need them to say "Hey, don't do that."? How are they getting rid of them? Firing into space? Disposal? Deconstruction?

The problem with a hypothetical question like this is that we really need details of the circumstance in which Australia invokes ANZUS to assess what the possible actors might do.

The first thing to realise is that talking about Australia being straight up invaded is crazy talk, there is no nation with the capability to do so and any kind of plausible reason to do so. So once we're asking if the US would come to our aid in the event of invasion, we're already in crazy land and the answer is whatever you'd like it to be.

At which point we ask ourselves what other situations might involve an Australian operation but not a US one? Perhaps a peacekeeping operation, in which Australia has a strong vested interest but the US does not? Maybe increased tension in East Timor, with Australia wanting to help but the US very reluctant to do so. Well in that situation I think you'd see the US consider it's own priorities long before it worried about preserving ANZUS solidarity.

The US is not unusual in that, it's how just about every country operates. In fact, the only country in the world right now that seems obligated to go into every war its major ally does regardless of our own national interest, just because of some notion of solidarity, is Australia, who'll enter any war the US does. I think that's something we might need to think about.

Well thats A) because Britain, our mother country, gave us the shaft, and B) because if we let America give us the shaft, were completely screwed, so we have to suck up to them for them to love us .

Jaon wrote:By no means chaos0xoomega! We love americans just as much as they love us, point is, I dont know exactly what I am referring to, but my history teacher specifically said we have invoked the ANZUS treaty before, and Uncle Sam has given us the finger! I'm sure a quick google search would find exactly what it was.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Malaysia?

Chowderhead...I didnt actually believe when I heard at first that America was getting rid of its nukes!?!?! Sure, theres nothing I'd want more than a world without weapons of mass destruction, but theres nothing I want less than a world with an America without weapons of mass destruction! America is a super power for a reason, and what happens when you take away the reason NOT to attack them (apart from the obvious fact that they use Apaches ) ?

America cannot be invaded by anyone. They have more naval power than everyone else combined, and they've got oceans all around them. All those nukes are there to protect Europe from Soviet invasion, and to protect the US from nuclear attack. They're not there in case anyone somehow managed to invade the US.

Wont countries who retain their nukes be able to blackmail USA? Shouldnt USA just hide them away in some bunker for the time when they need them to say "Hey, don't do that."? How are they getting rid of them? Firing into space? Disposal? Deconstruction?

They're reducing the total number of nukes, because they have far more than are needed to blow up the world.

Jaon wrote:By no means chaos0xoomega! We love americans just as much as they love us, point is, I dont know exactly what I am referring to, but my history teacher specifically said we have invoked the ANZUS treaty before, and Uncle Sam has given us the finger! I'm sure a quick google search would find exactly what it was.


Chowderhead...I didnt actually believe when I heard at first that America was getting rid of its nukes!?!?! Sure, theres nothing I'd want more than a world without weapons of mass destruction, but theres nothing I want less than a world with an America without weapons of mass destruction! America is a super power for a reason, and what happens when you take away the reason NOT to attack them (apart from the obvious fact that they use Apaches ) ?

Wont countries who retain their nukes be able to blackmail USA? Shouldnt USA just hide them away in some bunker for the time when they need them to say "Hey, don't do that."? How are they getting rid of them? Firing into space? Disposal? Deconstruction?

The US is replacing its nukes with a conventional strike option. The idea is that we can replace our ICBM's with hypersonic cruise missiles that can deliver a precision strike package to any point on the globe in less time than it would take a nuclear missile to do so, without the risks of fallout or starting a nuclear holocaust. They haven't really discussed what the warhead on such a vehicle would be, but its thought that it would be small (take out the house next door without destroying mine), with the kinetic energy provided by a 2 ton hunk of metal travelling at Mach 10+ providing the extra oomph! it needs vs. a hardened target. And then you have the "rods from god" concept that people keep talking around (tungsten rods dropped from orbit to produce a kinetic explosion rivalling Hiroshima on impact with the surface).

Jaon wrote:Well thats A) because Britain, our mother country, gave us the shaft, and B) because if we let America give us the shaft, were completely screwed, so we have to suck up to them for them to love us .

How are we completely screwed? No-one has the capability and to invade us, and a plausible reason to do so.

We like our close relationship with the US because it allows us to operate in SE Asia with the authority of the US behind us. That's all. We have to ask if that added authority is worth being willing to pile into any war the US decides it needs to fight.

sebster wrote:

Jaon wrote:Well thats A) because Britain, our mother country, gave us the shaft, and B) because if we let America give us the shaft, were completely screwed, so we have to suck up to them for them to love us .

How are we completely screwed? No-one has the capability and to invade us, and a plausible reason to do so.

We like our close relationship with the US because it allows us to operate in SE Asia with the authority of the US behind us. That's all. We have to ask if that added authority is worth being willing to pile into any war the US decides it needs to fight.

Considering that Australia's commitment is usually a tiny tiny percentage of its total military force (a handful of special operators, albeit a handful of very well trained, highly skilled, highly disciplined, and very, very capable special operators), I think its worth the minor costs.

Jaon wrote:Well thats because Britain, our mother country, gave us the shaft, .

Yep very true
It is called "Retaining the Ashes."

No America would not give a gakk about Aus
(No oil)

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Jaon wrote:Well thats because Britain, our mother country, gave us the shaft, .

Yep very true
It is called "Retaining the Ashes."

No America would not give a gakk about Aus
(No oil)

Oil isnt everything - Australia has vast resources of uranium etc. Also, if you think about it, theres prolly loads of oil under the barrier reef, and Australia would make a great staging ground for an invasion on other southern hemisphere countries.

So I think there are plenty of reasons for US to invade Australia. I mean, assist Australia in the event of war.

I have to say. You Astralians as far as I can tell really know how to take one for the team. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, War on Terror, you guys have been present in some way in every major conflict of the 20th and thus far the 21st century (for the US anyway) Only two of those conflicts far as I can tell actually involved your direct interests XD.

Good show gents. Good show

sebster wrote:

Jaon wrote:By no means chaos0xoomega! We love americans just as much as they love us, point is, I dont know exactly what I am referring to, but my history teacher specifically said we have invoked the ANZUS treaty before, and Uncle Sam has given us the finger! I'm sure a quick google search would find exactly what it was.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Malaysia?

Chowderhead...I didnt actually believe when I heard at first that America was getting rid of its nukes!?!?! Sure, theres nothing I'd want more than a world without weapons of mass destruction, but theres nothing I want less than a world with an America without weapons of mass destruction! America is a super power for a reason, and what happens when you take away the reason NOT to attack them (apart from the obvious fact that they use Apaches ) ?

America cannot be invaded by anyone. They have more naval power than everyone else combined, and they've got oceans all around them. All those nukes are there to protect Europe from Soviet invasion, and to protect the US from nuclear attack. They're not there in case anyone somehow managed to invade the US.

Wont countries who retain their nukes be able to blackmail USA? Shouldnt USA just hide them away in some bunker for the time when they need them to say "Hey, don't do that."? How are they getting rid of them? Firing into space? Disposal? Deconstruction?

Sorry, I was unclear, when I said "Attack" I meant nuclear attack. I was referring to MAD, if america has no nukes, there is no MAD. But yes thank you for the info, you have reassured me.
They're reducing the total number of nukes, because they have far more than are needed to blow up the world.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Jaon wrote:Well thats because Britain, our mother country, gave us the shaft, .

Yep very true
It is called "Retaining the Ashes."

Other than winning the occasional game of cricket or rugby, and rarely both in any close succession I do not know where the Aus get the idea that we are shafting you. Perhaps its part of the wave of anglophobia I am starting to hear from some Australian boadmembers. "You feth us over, because you feth us over, like when you fethed us over, err sometime, dont know exactly when." Either that or some tirade that can be instantly disproven with a two minute google check.
I find it sad really, because Aussies in the Uk get a far nicer time than Brits do over in Oz, we have nothing against them and they are welcome, and we really do not understand the hatred.

By the way GW doesnt count as an answer, they feth over everyone and its more incompetence than malice.

It gets boring here in Australia, we like a bit of sport now and then

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
No America would not give a gakk about Aus
(No oil)

Australia happens to be the US fourth largest export market... we don't export nearly enough these days, we can't afford to lose such a large market as it is...

LordofHats wrote:I have to say. You Astralians as far as I can tell really know how to take one for the team. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, War on Terror, you guys have been present in some way in every major conflict of the 20th and thus far the 21st century (for the US anyway) Only two of those conflicts far as I can tell actually involved your direct interests XD.

Good show gents. Good show

Aussies are very aggressive, as a result of living on the global equivalent of Catachan.

LordofHats wrote:I have to say. You Australians as far as I can tell really know how to take one for the team. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, War on Terror, you guys have been present in some way in every major conflict of the 20th and thus far the 21st century (for the US anyway) Only two of those conflicts far as I can tell actually involved your direct interests XD.

Good show gents. Good show

I concur with that entirely, they dont wait until half time before joining in either.

Orlanth wrote:

LordofHats wrote:I have to say. You Australians as far as I can tell really know how to take one for the team. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, War on Terror, you guys have been present in some way in every major conflict of the 20th and thus far the 21st century (for the US anyway) Only two of those conflicts far as I can tell actually involved your direct interests XD.

Good show gents. Good show

I concur with that entirely, they dont wait until half time before joining in either.

ZING!

chaos0xomega wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
No America would not give a gakk about Aus
(No oil)

Australia happens to be the US fourth largest export market... we don't export nearly enough these days, we can't afford to lose such a large market as it is...

Is this so, Australia has a rather small population, fourth largest? Does everyone in Oz have three Buicks or something?

Orlanth wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Jaon wrote:Well thats because Britain, our mother country, gave us the shaft, .

Yep very true
It is called "Retaining the Ashes."

Other than winning the occasional game of cricket or rugby, and rarely both in any close succession I do not know where the Aus get the idea that we are shafting you. Perhaps its part of the wave of anglophobia I am starting to hear from some Australian boadmembers. "You feth us over, because you feth us over, like when you fethed us over, err sometime, dont know exactly when." Either that or some tirade that can be instantly disproven with a two minute google check.
I find it sad really, because Aussies in the Uk get a far nicer time than Brits do over in Oz, we have nothing against them and they are welcome, and we really do not understand the hatred.

By the way GW doesnt count as an answer, they feth over everyone and its more incompetence than malice.

I havn't heard much of hate for Brits (Poms) in our country (Monarchs need not applly ).

We tend to joke alot about you guys but we don't hate you.

Perhaps you don't get our sence of humour


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orlanth wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
No America would not give a gakk about Aus
(No oil)

Australia happens to be the US fourth largest export market... we don't export nearly enough these days, we can't afford to lose such a large market as it is...

Is this so, Australia has a rather small population, fourth largest? Does everyone in Oz have three Buicks or something?

No but we have a Gak load of land and large sized houses

darkkt wrote:

LordofHats wrote:I have to say. You Astralians as far as I can tell really know how to take one for the team. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, War on Terror, you guys have been present in some way in every major conflict of the 20th and thus far the 21st century (for the US anyway) Only two of those conflicts far as I can tell actually involved your direct interests XD.

Good show gents. Good show

Aussies are very aggressive, as a result of living on the global equivalent of Catachan.

I equate it to Pandora: "Out there beyond that fence every living thing that crawls, flies, or squats in the mud wants to kill you and eat your eyes for jujubes."

So Kangaroo's and Koala's want to eat my eyes now?!?!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orlanth wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Jaon wrote:Well thats because Britain, our mother country, gave us the shaft, .

Yep very true
It is called "Retaining the Ashes."

Other than winning the occasional game of cricket or rugby, and rarely both in any close succession I do not know where the Aus get the idea that we are shafting you. Perhaps its part of the wave of anglophobia I am starting to hear from some Australian boadmembers. "You feth us over, because you feth us over, like when you fethed us over, err sometime, dont know exactly when." Either that or some tirade that can be instantly disproven with a two minute google check.
I find it sad really, because Aussies in the Uk get a far nicer time than Brits do over in Oz, we have nothing against them and they are welcome, and we really do not understand the hatred.

By the way GW doesnt count as an answer, they feth over everyone and its more incompetence than malice.

When I say shaft, I meant we arent really allies, and havent been after WWII, but by no means do we hate you guys at all, we love you guys!

I believe they would.

Currently the only country that is a 'threat' is Indonesia. China is too far away and the other powers in the region are too small.

The whole aim of the military response is to grind them to a halt in the north (where our military has been moved in the last 2 decades) and mass conscription fills out the army reserve units whilst the reservists train a level up to cope with the influx, so that the new full units have a ready made NCO and officer core. (so a Lt would be Capt or Mj, Corp would be a sgt... etc)

One thing being looked at by the thinking heads is to cut back on our expenditure on systems like new subs and the already behind schedule aegis ships and just bring US bases here. Couple airbases of raptors and some US subs lurking offshore should be a helpful deterant.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I believe they would.

Currently the only country that is a 'threat' is Indonesia. China is too far away and the other powers in the region are too small.

The whole aim of the military response is to grind them to a halt in the north (where our military has been moved in the last 2 decades) and mass conscription fills out the army reserve units whilst the reservists train a level up to cope with the influx, so that the new full units have a ready made NCO and officer core. (so a Lt would be Capt or Mj, Corp would be a sgt... etc)

One thing being looked at by the thinking heads is to cut back on our expenditure on systems like new subs and the already behind schedule aegis ships and just bring US bases here. Couple airbases of raptors and some US subs lurking offshore should be a helpful deterant.

I suppose I and some other US military types would be willing to volunteer to be posted in such a backwater location. Its a dirty job, but someone has to do it, right?

chaos0xomega wrote:Considering that Australia's commitment is usually a tiny tiny percentage of its total military force (a handful of special operators, albeit a handful of very well trained, highly skilled, highly disciplined, and very, very capable special operators), I think its worth the minor costs.

There's the cost in military expenditure and lives, which I agree with you is very small, but there's also the cost in denying ourselves independance of action, and in pursuing other alliances. As long as we think we're only relevant to the region as long as we're the US's regional deputy, we're denying ourselves those last two options, and that could be very costly in the long term.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:I have to say. You Astralians as far as I can tell really know how to take one for the team. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, War on Terror, you guys have been present in some way in every major conflict of the 20th and thus far the 21st century (for the US anyway) Only two of those conflicts far as I can tell actually involved your direct interests XD.

Good show gents. Good show

Yeah, funny thing is we pride ourselves on beng a peaceful nation, but if you have a war we will show up, no questions asked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orlanth wrote:Other than winning the occasional game of cricket or rugby, and rarely both in any close succession I do not know where the Aus get the idea that we are shafting you. Perhaps its part of the wave of anglophobia I am starting to hear from some Australian boadmembers. "You feth us over, because you feth us over, like when you fethed us over, err sometime, dont know exactly when."

Basically it goes back to WWII, when the British lost Singapore they wanted Australian troops committed to the continued defence of the remaining colonies in Asia, with the defence of India the primary objective. This reached the point where the British were over-riding Australian commands to our own troops. It was clear that Australia saw the relationship as one of mutual self-interest, while the British still saw us as a colony.

Oh, there's also a rising amount of nationalism of the stupidest and ugliest kind in Australia.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:Australia happens to be the US fourth largest export market... we don't export nearly enough these days, we can't afford to lose such a large market as it is...

According to this list, we don't even crack the top 15.

And the US is the largest exporter in the world, by a long way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I believe they would.

Currently the only country that is a 'threat' is Indonesia. China is too far away and the other powers in the region are too small.

Indonesia has no force projection (no boats), and an army barely capable of engaging unruly islanders.

We're not being invaded by anyone.