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I just picked up my Eldar again and haven't played since tournaments were 1750, 1850 so this 2000 pts thing is new to me. I'm a sole believer that even with the 150-250 pts different, the game is completely different. So my question is which heavies are good for a 2k tournament list nowadays?

If you mean Heavy Support? I run squardrons of War Walkers, and a Falcon which of course doubles as a troop carrier.

I suppose it would depend on what else you have in your list, and how many points you are looking to dedicate to Heavy Support.

Probably about 300-350 pts dedicated to heavy support

i agree with that it would depend on the rest of your list...but you will see usually at least 2 fire prisms and a falcon. the falcon usually has a unit of 5 dire avengers with holo fields and spirit stones for upgrades so it can sit back on an objective fairly safe. also you will see people go with 2 prisms and a unit of 3 warwalkers with dual scatter lasers, but that is more personal taste than anything else

there are also 2 schools of thought for upgrades on fire prisms...most say to keep them cheap and dont give them upgrades. this is mainly to save points for more fire dragons or dire avengers. then you have others that say give them holo fields and spirit stones just because they feel it keeps them alive longer.

Why take 2 prisms? because if 1 of them gets glanced, they can't combine the beams. with the armor 12, its not very hard to glance them

true...but if they keep getting shot up your doing something wrong. and the reason for 2+ prisms is to fully utilize the combined shot. just having one your wasting points on something you cant fully use

but personally i usually do 3 prisms with holo fields and stones mainly just so i have 2 prisms shooting most of the time...however like any unit it should be screened or have other units that pose a bigger threat

Holos do absolutely nothing as far as keeping your Prisms shooting, if a damage result gets through you are not shooting next turn 5/6 results. Sure you are more likely to keep them alive till the end of the game, but as mentioned they are very easy to glance and paying 160pts to maybe contest an objective is not such a good plan. This is why most people just run them naked, if you get damaged you lose 115pts of shooting rather than 160pts.

As for the Eldar Heavies in general. Avoid Support Weapon Batteries, they are probably the worst unit in the codex (and the codex isn't that great overall to start with).

Dark Reapers still shred MEQ nicely, but really suffer because that's all they can do (single role) and they can't move and fire. Mobility is one of the only things Eldar have going for them now, its the only thing which lets them compete with 5th edition lists.

Wraithlords are definitely a sub par choice, without cover they disappear to missile spam lists and their size means getting cover is almost impossible. Their low number of attacks means you are limited to using them as backfield anti tank platforms and they are outclassed in this role by both Falcons and Prisms. While not as bad as Reapers they still have the same issue with mobility which limits their use further. Mass poison from Dark Eldar lists was probably the nail in the coffin.

War Walkers are solid, the cheapest way of getting massed S6 shooting, which is one of the few things Eldar can have going for them. You can also run them with EML to get sub par missile spam units. They do however die very easily, even with cover (which is easy to get by standing behind a grav tank and firing over the top) and 2000pts is probably the tipping point where they start to really struggle as the amount of firepower increases. Again they have the mobility issue that Wraithlords have, although can sometimes get around this by outflanking (its not normally a good idea though).

The NightSpinner is helpful if you face a huge number of horde lists, but is otherwise not a great choice in a fully mech list. You shouldn't need to slow them down to stop them reaching you, all your units should be in vehicles which can always run and are hard to kill in the first place. Its basically completely outclassed in tournament/competitve/take all comers lists by the Prism, which is almost as good for horde control, but can threaten heavy infantry and vehicles as well.

That leaves the Prism and the Falcon as the two main competitive choices. The Prism is one of the few dual purpose units in the Eldar list, which by itself is a great reason to take it particularly because its relatively cheap as well. It has massive range which lets it sit out of reach of most common anti tank weapons, which means even without any upgrades they do well. Most commonly they are taken in pairs, partly for the general redundancy and partly for the linked shot. However the linked shot doesn't get used as often as people sometimes think, which means a single Prism can work as well (I use it mostly to squash Terminators/T4 stuff with FNP/bunched up MEQ from exploded vehicles etc).

The Falcon is my personal favourite, in short it is the best backfield objective holder in the game. You put 5 Avengers in there and with Holos it becomes a nightmare to kill with long ranged weapons, if you get cover (or flat out after being stunned etc) you are the hardest vehicle in the game to kill. For the most part all my regular opponents have just given up on trying to kill them, they only start shooting them if they manage to kill of all my Serpents. The key of course is that you have to hang back because melta/AP1 is the only thing which causes you issues. From a damage perspective they are pretty solid, you can build them as S8 or S6 gunboats, comparable to Wraithlords in damage output except much harder to kill (and scoring). They are obviously outclassed by Walkers in damage output, but unlike Walkers they tend to live for the entire game.

I don't really have the patience to read all of this on my phone, so I'll just come out and say war walkers.

Prisms won't do as much at the best of times. Plus, war walkers are one of the only solutions to monstrous creatures for us.

180 points for 24 shots at S6, range 36", with the ability to outflank. More often than not, war walkers are what win me games, while 3 slots would certainly be welcome, I usually find that 2 units of 3 or 3 units of 2 work more than well enough. Shuri-Walkers are always an effective alternative as well, but I find with 36", they can lend more than an alpha strike to the battle.

Wraithlords are honestly out of place in most lists, and prisms, alongside their recently released counterparts, generally tend to not pack enough punch for their cost.

Good luck and good bye.

Thank you Powerguy for the detailed breakdown of Eldar Heavies. Which side weapon should I take on the Falcon? I know it comes with a Pulse Laser but with all of the upgrades like holofields and stuff, Falcons come out to be a bit pricy don't you think? Fire Prisms... I think I might have to give them another try because I had some bad experience with them so I don't really take them much. Thank you everyone else for your input about heavies and it really helped me out a ton.

EML is a pretty nice match to the Pulse Laser on the Falcon. S8 when fired as krak and IIRC, the range is either the same or close enough not to be an issue.

I run twin prisms bare, with only the chin cannon upgrade when I can afford it, in my seer council list and love them. I run them this way for the very reasons that Powerguy described. The 50 points I save in upgrades means another jetlock for me.

I also run the DAVU Falcon, typically with Eldrad riding shotgun with the avengers. It's a potent anti -tank scoring unit, taking advantage of Guide, Doom, and the occassional Fortune while working in concert with the council to gain cover. I've run it bare and with holofields, star engines, and stones but with a rerollable 4+ cover save most of the game, it's a very tough nut to crack and the upgrades are just insurance. Also, I don't press the argument for star engines being able to tank shock, so they're only there for grabbing lonely objectives - something my jetbikes are just as likely to do.

I've tested Falcons, Prisms, Wraithlords and War walkers. And the only ones who've never failed me are the War walkers. I pride myself in my skill with them, because if positioned right they almost never die, especially against opponents who don't realise the damage potential that they have.

Falcons are pretty nice, if you play them right. The Eldrad + Avengers loadout is pretty great, even though it's 400 points in one basket(for this reason I'd never go with this combination below 1750 points, but at 2k, there's no reason not to). EML/Holofield Falcon is a standard weapon loadout and it's pretty great. Guided, that's 3 S8 shots at 48" range.

Fire Prisms are...hmm...their strength is their duality in a codex where everything is very specialized. When you look at them in a vacuum, they're not nearly as impressive. I like them, I mostly use them in one of my lists, but too many times they've done nothing major during the game. One overlooked feature is that they're the only thing mechdar have against Monoliths, so if you expect to face a lot of Necrons(doubt it, but who knows?) then it's good to have 2 for the linked S10 shot.

If I had a choice, I'd use a list with 6 War walkers all armed with scatterlasers and a DAVU Falcon with Eldrad. Even at 2k points, you should be able to cripple your opponent's transports or MCs with mass of S6 shooting before the Walkers bite the dust. Hell, I'd consider Vypers as my FA slot with scatterlasers for even more S6 shooting and keep them near the Falcon so Eldrad can guide and if need be fortune them.

In your shoes, I'd try playtesting Fire Prisms, Falcons and War walkers and then decide which ones suit you best.

Oh, one other thing I just noticed, you haven't told us what kind of a list you play. Because in a foot list centered around the Avatar and a score of Guardians, Wraithlords are actually the best heavy support choice, by far. It's all about synergy, so if you're not playing mechdar, I'd seriously considering playing 2, or even 3 Wraithlords instead, armed with EML and Brightlance.

Trasian wrote:Thank you Powerguy for the detailed breakdown of Eldar Heavies. Which side weapon should I take on the Falcon? I know it comes with a Pulse Laser but with all of the upgrades like holofields and stuff, Falcons come out to be a bit pricy don't you think? Fire Prisms... I think I might have to give them another try because I had some bad experience with them so I don't really take them much. Thank you everyone else for your input about heavies and it really helped me out a ton.

Either EML for a S8 gunboat or Scatter Laser for a Dakka Gunboat. I usually take the underslung Cannon in both cases, the added firepower is always nice, with the EML it lets you fire slightly more effectively against light infantry when moving 12" and with the Scatter Laser you get an impressive amount of firepower when moving 6". Essentially you are trying to find weapons which work well with the Pulse Laser, either in an anti infantry role or an anti tank role. Avoid the Bright Lance though, it doesn't mesh with the Pulse Laser very well as its best suited to shooting AV12+ rather than AV12, just take EML instead.

Yes Falcons end up being pricey, but as long as you don't run them straight into melta range they don't die and spend most of the game providing fire support. Imo reliably protecting a scoring unit for an entire game is almost worth it by itself.

Holofield + stone falcons don't have to camp an objective. They can move 24" on turn 5 to claim an objective

They can also start the game loaded with fire dragons and end the game loaded with troops on an objective.

The choice of heavies always depends on the rest of your army.
So what's the intended list?

I'm not impressed by fire prisms. The cost of 2 fire prisms is too high for a single 6/3 blast, and it's reliant on 2 fire prisms not being stunned. The cost of a 5/4 blast is also not impressive because eldar already to exceptionally well at inflicting mass numbers of crap ap wounds.

I second Schadenfreude. I never had good luck with Fire Prisms so that I do not run them in my mech Eldar force.

wuestenfux wrote:I second Schadenfreude. I never had good luck with Fire Prisms so that I do not run them in my mech Eldar force.

Add a third vote to that.
My prism once hit an enemy AV 13 vehicle every turn of a game and didn't do anything to it. Maybe that's unfortunate dice rolling, but I think war walkers are more effective in general.

I also take a falcon for the troop carrying aspect as well.

As for the falcon side weapon, I got the old kit where it only came with scatter laser, so that's all I can talk about. Scatter lasers should be left to war walkers from my experience. That's where they work best.

Well, the best choices are 3 Warwalkers with scatterlasers, and a sniping Falcon with missile launcher carrying a scoring unit (5 Dire Avengers).
The third choice depends on the rest of the army.

War walkers with scatter lasers are glass cannons. In the era of 5th edition where every army is packing massed firepower to bring down AV11 Vehicles does anybody expect a squadron of AV10 vehicles that are packing mondo firepower to survive 1 round of enemy shooting?

That being said I think war walkers can be effective for their points, but they should always be reserved regardless of turn order, mission type, or deployment type. If they start on the table they are just going to die on turn 1. Just ask yourself "Is there any better target for enemy anti vehicle weapons". War walkers coming in from reserve gain huge deployment advantages that can be used to help potentially keep them alive for 2 or 3 turns. By the time war walkers do deploy you might also have a grasp of the enemy's specific strategy being used in the game, and the war walkers can attempt to foil said strategy by blasting a key unit. If a squad of war walkers is going to die after firing a sing round's worth of shots it's best to make those shots count.

schadenfreude wrote:War walkers with scatter lasers are glass cannons. In the era of 5th edition where every army is packing massed firepower to bring down AV11 Vehicles does anybody expect a squadron of AV10 vehicles that are packing mondo firepower to survive 1 round of enemy shooting?

That being said I think war walkers can be effective for their points, but they should always be reserved regardless of turn order, mission type, or deployment type. If they start on the table they are just going to die on turn 1. Just ask yourself "Is there any better target for enemy anti vehicle weapons". War walkers coming in from reserve gain huge deployment advantages that can be used to help potentially keep them alive for 2 or 3 turns. By the time war walkers do deploy you might also have a grasp of the enemy's specific strategy being used in the game, and the war walkers can attempt to foil said strategy by blasting a key unit. If a squad of war walkers is going to die after firing a sing round's worth of shots it's best to make those shots count.

Die on turn 1? No. The key is target saturation. Present the enemy as much targets as possible and it will be a tough time for him/her to decide what to target.

Falcons with Holo-fields and Spirit Stones are practically indestructible. No really, they are.

And they can carry some really nice weapon combinations, they're really versatile.

wuestenfux wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:War walkers with scatter lasers are glass cannons. In the era of 5th edition where every army is packing massed firepower to bring down AV11 Vehicles does anybody expect a squadron of AV10 vehicles that are packing mondo firepower to survive 1 round of enemy shooting?

That being said I think war walkers can be effective for their points, but they should always be reserved regardless of turn order, mission type, or deployment type. If they start on the table they are just going to die on turn 1. Just ask yourself "Is there any better target for enemy anti vehicle weapons". War walkers coming in from reserve gain huge deployment advantages that can be used to help potentially keep them alive for 2 or 3 turns. By the time war walkers do deploy you might also have a grasp of the enemy's specific strategy being used in the game, and the war walkers can attempt to foil said strategy by blasting a key unit. If a squad of war walkers is going to die after firing a sing round's worth of shots it's best to makhttp://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jspe those shots count.

Die on turn 1? No. The key is target saturation. Present the enemy as much targets as possible and it will be a tough time for him/her to decide what to target.

IMO There's no such thing as AV10 Eldar target saturation. Opponents with a good sense of target priority will gun down Vypers 1st, then war walkers, and then begin on the AV12 targets. Squadroned AV10 targets are worlds apart from AV12 grav tanks. 3-9 war walkers + however many AV12 grav tanks=war walkers get shot first. The key to target saturation is to confuse the enemy and present them with a tough decision on who to shoot first, but there is no tough decision on who to shoot first when choosing between AV12 and AV10 when the AV10 is packing more firepower than the AV12.

3 War walkers + 2 Holo field Falcons would be the eldar heavy support that would work the most effectively against most of my armies.

schadenfreude wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:War walkers with scatter lasers are glass cannons. In the era of 5th edition where every army is packing massed firepower to bring down AV11 Vehicles does anybody expect a squadron of AV10 vehicles that are packing mondo firepower to survive 1 round of enemy shooting?

That being said I think war walkers can be effective for their points, but they should always be reserved regardless of turn order, mission type, or deployment type. If they start on the table they are just going to die on turn 1. Just ask yourself "Is there any better target for enemy anti vehicle weapons". War walkers coming in from reserve gain huge deployment advantages that can be used to help potentially keep them alive for 2 or 3 turns. By the time war walkers do deploy you might also have a grasp of the enemy's specific strategy being used in the game, and the war walkers can attempt to foil said strategy by blasting a key unit. If a squad of war walkers is going to die after firing a sing round's worth of shots it's best to makhttp://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jspe those shots count.

Die on turn 1? No. The key is target saturation. Present the enemy as much targets as possible and it will be a tough time for him/her to decide what to target.

IMO There's no such thing as AV10 Eldar target saturation. Opponents with a good sense of target priority will gun down Vypers 1st, then war walkers, and then begin on the AV12 targets. Squadroned AV10 targets are worlds apart from AV12 grav tanks. 3-9 war walkers + however many AV12 grav tanks=war walkers get shot first. The key to target saturation is to confuse the enemy and present them with a tough decision on who to shoot first, but there is no tough decision on who to shoot first when choosing between AV12 and AV10 when the AV10 is packing more firepower than the AV12.

3 War walkers + 2 Holo field Falcons would be the eldar heavy support that would work the most effectively against most of my armies.

I'll be very glad if the enemy targets first my Warwalkers and Vypers and leave my Serpents approach his front rank unhindered. He will pay for this faulty priority schedule as soon as my Fire Dragons and mounted Seer Council is close enough.

However, I second your HS choices.

This really does depend on the rest of your list and your meta game.

My first heavy is always
Falcon with Eldar missle launcher, holofields, spirit stones with 5 dire avengers inside. Usually joined by Eldrad. Expensive but gives you a fairly durable scoring unit that with guide puts out 3 strength 8 shots that hit 75% of the time. Fortune helps protect you if you sit behind cover.

You can add more falcons like this one obviously without Eldrad for more durable scoring units and decent ranged.

Fire Prisms I have not liked as much since 5th edition. They just seem less reliable against vehicles then they did in 4th edition and seem to scatter off more. The ability to combine beams for a strength 6 ap 3 large blast is nice but is often spoiled by cover. Combining for a strength 10 ap 1 shot also can be spoiled by cover or if one of the fire prisms is shaken.

Warwalkers with scatter lasers really depends on the amount of cover and your metagame If they can get cover they survive longer. Outflanking is pretty good getting side shots on rhino and chimera chassis and that means you probably shake or killed some ranged by the time they show up.

Falcon with Eldar missle launcher, holofields, spirit stones with 5 dire avengers inside. Usually joined by Eldrad. Expensive but gives you a fairly durable scoring unit that with guide puts out 3 strength 8 shots that hit 75% of the time. Fortune helps protect you if you sit behind cover.

Fortuning a Falcon with holofield placed in the backfield and used for long-range fire support is not really a must-have. Guide would be more useful.

Avariel wrote:My first heavy is always
Falcon with Eldar missle launcher, holofields, spirit stones with 5 dire avengers inside. Usually joined by Eldrad.

Would a normal Farseer do in place of Eldrad?

schadenfreude wrote:

IMO There's no such thing as AV10 Eldar target saturation. Opponents with a good sense of target priority will gun down Vypers 1st, then war walkers, and then begin on the AV12 targets. Squadroned AV10 targets are worlds apart from AV12 grav tanks. 3-9 war walkers + however many AV12 grav tanks=war walkers get shot first. The key to target saturation is to confuse the enemy and present them with a tough decision on who to shoot first, but there is no tough decision on who to shoot first when choosing between AV12 and AV10 when the AV10 is packing more firepower than the AV12.

Ooh - so going on the target saturation theme and the no tough decision between AV10 and AV 12... 9 Vypers with Scatter Laser/Cannon and 9 Walkers with 2 Scatter Lasers. 135 S6 shots should meet the target saturation level.

Skinnereal wrote:

Avariel wrote:My first heavy is always
Falcon with Eldar missle launcher, holofields, spirit stones with 5 dire avengers inside. Usually joined by Eldrad.

Would a normal Farseer do in place of Eldrad?

I'd take none. This combo is too expensive for what it can achieve. Targets often get cover saves these days making long-range shooting less effective.

wuestenfux wrote:

Skinnereal wrote:

Avariel wrote:My first heavy is always
Falcon with Eldar missle launcher, holofields, spirit stones with 5 dire avengers inside. Usually joined by Eldrad.

Would a normal Farseer do in place of Eldrad?

I'd take none. This combo is too expensive for what it can achieve. Targets often get cover saves these days making long-range shooting less effective.

I would say low rate of fire rather than long range shooting. Falcon with EML moves 6 fires 3 S8 shots hitting with an average of 1.5 with cover .75 for penetrating .375 for actually killing a tank .125. Approx the same cost 3 walkers firing 36 S6 shots. 18 hit of whiche 9 get through cover with 1.5 penetrating or .25 actually killing a tank. The only question is do you really need the survivability of a falcon or the S8 shots. If you are only looking at affecting AV 11 take the war walkers hands down. But to say you are actually counting on killing anything with less that AP1 is doubtful at best. Thus the phantom "power" of two prisms firing S10 AP1 small blast. It should be fairly accurate but two heavy slots and @ 250 pts to get one powerful shot seams foolish.

A Falcon with a small DA unit inside shouldn't be underestimated. If tooled up, it is very resilient and can do the last minute grabbing or contesting.