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Can anyone tell me if it doesn't move what can a standard land raider fire as I'm confused,

My way of looking at it is it can fire everything at one target, then the machine spirit allows you to fire one more weapon at a different target which could be the tl lc again at another target

Thanks in advance

It doesn't allow you to fire a weapon a second time. It allows you to fire one more than you could normally fire.

If the vehicle didn't move, it can fire everything it has, so gains no particular benefit from the machine spirit in regards to how many weapons it can fire.

Well, that said, insaniak, it could shoot it at a separate target, surely?

From the Codex: "A land Raider can fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting."

Miraclefish wrote:Well, that said, insaniak, it could shoot it at a separate target, surely?

No, I don't think you can't choose to not fire something if you're allowed to (unless you don't fire at all, of course). If you don't move the land raider and you choose to fire at squad A, you can't elect to not fire the assault cannon or something even if you're out of range so you can shoot at squad B as well. That's how I interpret it anyway (the rules).

*edit*
Rather, you can opt to not roll for something if you know it will do nothing to the target but it still counts as having fired (or attempted to) I believe.

Not true, Kevin. You can choose not to fire specific weapons. I've been assaulted many times by a unit that has chosen only to fire its Assault weapons, even though it may have Rapid Fire or Heavy weapons as well.

LoneGamer is correct. You may fire one, all or none of your weapons. It's assaulting in which you're required to use every attack, without discretion.

That's true for infantry but is it the same for vehicles?

*edit*
Keep in mind, my only interaction with PoTMS is when it's used against me and usually my opponent is rushing forward so only fires 1 or 2 weapons or focuses fire on one squad if he sat still for some reason. And the only vehicle I use is a monolith so I only ever get to fire one weapon with that anyway. And, not like necrons are extremely varied in their infantry weapon selections either.

The number of weapons a vehicle can shoot is dependent on how far it has traveled in the movement phase (pg. 58 BRB) and the damage it has take (pg. 61 BRB). I believe the way it works is as follows.

Normal Vehicle (no Power of the Machine Spirit)
Did not move - Can shoot all its weapons
Combat Speed - Fire one weapon, and its defensive weapons
Cruising Speed - Cannot Fire
Crew Shaken - Cannot shoot, but can move
Crew Stunned - Cannot move or shoot


Power of the Machine Spirit (Land Raider, Space Wolves Codex Pg. 44, Space Marine Codex Pg. 81)
Did not move - Can shoot all its weapons (one of which can be shoot at a different target unit)
Combat Speed - Fire two weapons (one of which can be shoot at a different target unit), and its defensive weapons
Cruising Speed - Fire one weapon
Crew Shaken - Can shoot one weapon, and can move
Crew Stunned - Can shoot one weapon, but cannot move

In regards to electing to not shoot a weapon to shoot at a different unit, on a vehicle not equipped with Power of the Machine Spirit, no you can't, but with it you can. Hope it helps.

Nice, so it actually specifies it in the rule for PoTMS in the regular SM book? Nice. My buddy only has the BT book, that's why I didn't think you could do that. Good to know.

The BT book actually has it in there, however it is very different, as this is an older codex. Have your friend read up on page 42, which then refers you to the vehicle upgrade page (pg. 29). Here it is described as a combination of organic and machine, with the below rules.

BT Power of the Machine Spirit
If the vehicle is stunned, the vehicle can move at max speed.
The "machine spirit" can shoot one weapon at a BS of 2 per turn as long as the vehicle does not travel past 6 inches, even if vehicle has suffered a crew shaken or crew stunned.
All of this is in addition to any normal firing.

Since this is the most current codex for the BT, you must use the rules that are outlined for them in that book even though the more modern codex have different rules.

To contradict merlin....from the Black Templar FAQ, under Erratas, on page 2:

Page 29 – Power of the Machine Spirit
Change to “The vehicle can fire one more weapon than
would normally be permitted. In addition, this weapon can
be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons,
subject to the normal rules for shooting. Therefore, a
vehicle that has moved at combat speed can fire two
weapons, and a vehicle that has either moved at cruising
speed, or has suffered a ʻCrew Stunnedʼ or ʻCrew Shakenʼ
result can fire a single weapon.”

Well there you go, more good news. I don't play BT so I have not checked out the FAQ.

Yeah, they finally updated the old SM 'dexes (BT & DA) to use the current versions of stuff like the machine spirit, assault cannon, cyclone missile launcher, typhoon launcher, storm shield (etc.) in the FAQs back in January. They did it on the Friday of the Conflict GT starting, so half the players at that event didn't even know about it.

Kevin949 wrote:That's true for infantry but is it the same for vehicles?

*edit*
Keep in mind, my only interaction with PoTMS is when it's used against me and usually my opponent is rushing forward so only fires 1 or 2 weapons or focuses fire on one squad if he sat still for some reason. And the only vehicle I use is a monolith so I only ever get to fire one weapon with that anyway. And, not like necrons are extremely varied in their infantry weapon selections either.

While not expressly specified as it is with infantry the alternative is not expressly specified either.

The basic Shooting rules have the specific allowance; and Vehicle shooting rules only change what they change(they do not have/nor incorporate all the shooting rules therefore if one were to claim that vehicle shooting rules are the only rules you use, then basically they cannot shoot/ their shooting will have little to no effect).

Assault has a specific restriction that all available attacks must be made and that everyone engaged must make attacks(therefore everyone engaged must make every attack available).

Getting back to the vehicles rules, page of the BRB specifies a "Can" for initial movement and weapon allowances, it then Specifies "May" for the individual speeds. As Can is capability and May is permissive; the Speeds grant you permission to fire an upper limit of weapons, not a set number.

As to shooting different targets... let's say you waanted to destroy a rhino so you use 1 las cannoon from potms on the rhino and miss. Assuming you didn't move can you fire the rest of the weapons at the same target or do you have to declare all shooting before rolling?

Edit: additional question. Can a land raider use its potms to pop a rhino then the rest of its shot to attack the unit that was inside the exploded vehicle?

All weapons in a unit must be declared and fired for at the same time. This is described in the shooting rules on Page 16. "A player may choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers... This must be declared before checking range, as all of the models in the unit fire at the same time"

You can not shoot one lascannon at the rhino, and then try to shoot the other lascannon at the rhino because you did not get the result you wanted.

and you can not explode a transport with one weapon and use the same units weapons on the unit that is now disembarked, as you have to declare all shooting from one unit at the same time.