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My brother recentility created a Grey Knight army made with Paladin, Inquiters, Land Raider, and 3 sqauds. I just can'tseem to beat him my army is 2 Chaos Sorcercers 3 sqauds of Marines 1 Sqaud of Terminators, 2 Khorne Bezeker sqauds, 1 Dreadnought, and then 11 Bloodletters when i speak of sqauds i do mean the mininuim of 5 in each sqaud. My question is is there any good way to beat him

Issue is your lack of armour, if you can post your exact list (time consuming I know) it will be easier for us to help you.

I second the "more armor" recommendation. Grey Knights have a tough time with armor due to their lack of melta or high STR guns.

Get a couple of land raiders and make sure you take out your opponent's land raider (and possible the inquisitors, depending on their loadout) and he'll have nothing to even put a dent in your armor assuming he doesn't assault with meltabombs.

Until he puts some anti-armor in his list, a couple of landraiders will have him at your mercy.

Heres my list in no particular order

#1 Sorcecer
Plasma Pistol
Force Staff
Mark of Tzeentch
Familiar
Winds of Chaos
Bolt of Change
Doombolt

#2 Sorcecer
Bolt Pistol
Force Sword
Mark of Tzeentch
Familiar
Winds of Chaos
Bolt of Change
Doombolt

#1 Dreadnought
Extra armor
Plasma Cannon
Close qauters weapon

#1 Khorne Bezerker
1. 2 Chain Axes (Skull Champion)
2. Chainsword and Bolt pistol
3.Melta gun
4.Chainsword, Bolt pistol, Frag Grenade
5.Chainsword and Bolt pistol

#2 Khorne Bezerker
1. 2 Bolt pistols (Skull Champion)
2. Plasma pistol and Bolt pistol
3. Chain axe and Bolt pistol
4. 2 Bolt pistols
5. 2 Bolt pistols
6. Plasma pistol and Chainsword

#1 Terminators
1. Twin-linked Bolter and Power fist ((Terminator Champion)
2. Combi-melta and Power Axe
3. Heavy Flamer and a Wierd Club thing that i don't know what its called
4. Combi-flamer and Power Axe
5. Reaper Autocannon and Chain fist

#1 Possossed Marines
1-5 Wierd weapon things

#1 Chaos Space Marines
1. Power Sword and Powerfist (Aspiring Champion)
2. Bolt pistol, Chainsword, and Meltabomb
3. Chainsword and Boltpistol
4. Flamer and Meltabomb
5. Bolt pistol and Khorne Banner

#2 Chaos Space Marines
1. Boltgun (Aspiring Champion)
2. Boltgun
3. Plasmagun
4. Heavy bolter
5. Boltgun

#3 Chaos Space Marines
1. Plasma pistol and Power Sword (Aspiring Champion)
2. Boltgun
3. Boltgun
4. Boltgun
5. Bolt pistol and Chainsword

#1 Bloodletters of Khorne
1-11 all with there weapon things

((I know i have terrible spelling))


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and i just got Cypher actually just a few minutes ago

Drop the possessed, the flamers, plasma pistols. With the terminators take just 3, bare bones with a combimelta and chainfist. Try to use that to carve open the raider, deep strike them in and try to gut it from inside out. Give the sorceror a lash and use it to lash GK units closer into assault rage for the khorne berzerkers. Drop a squad of CSM and replace with a khorne berzerker squad. Drop the dread and replace it with it with a predator with a lascannon turret. Add a unit of obliterators and I think it should fare ok. Sorry I can't go into more detail, but I am writing this on an iPod so it may be poorly worded. I wait for the more vetaeran players to rip it apart!

One problem with putting them into close qaurters the GK have nemesis force weapons

What point value? How many Grey Knights? What exactly are the "3 squads"?

Nightwalker wrote:One problem with putting them into close qaurters the GK have nemesis force weapons

Force weapons are only a big threat to daemons and multi-wound models that don't have Eternal Warrior.

Also, not sure if I'm reading your list right, but why do some of your berserkers have two bolt pistols?

yeah, we need to know exactly what the GK player is running.

3 squads is pretty vague as the GK codex has 5 possable troops choices.



are they Terminators? Strike Squads? Purifiers? Paladins? henchmen?

Nightwalker wrote:Heres my list in no particular order

#1 Sorcecer
Plasma Pistol
Force Staff
Mark of Tzeentch
Familiar
Winds of Chaos
Bolt of Change
Doombolt

#2 Sorcecer
Bolt Pistol
Force Sword
Mark of Tzeentch
Familiar
Winds of Chaos
Bolt of Change
Doombolt

#1 Dreadnought
Extra armor
Plasma Cannon
Close qauters weapon

#1 Khorne Bezerker
1. 2 Chain Axes (Skull Champion)
2. Chainsword and Bolt pistol
3.Melta gun
4.Chainsword, Bolt pistol, Frag Grenade
5.Chainsword and Bolt pistol

#2 Khorne Bezerker
1. 2 Bolt pistols (Skull Champion)
2. Plasma pistol and Bolt pistol
3. Chain axe and Bolt pistol
4. 2 Bolt pistols
5. 2 Bolt pistols
6. Plasma pistol and Chainsword

#1 Terminators
1. Twin-linked Bolter and Power fist ((Terminator Champion)
2. Combi-melta and Power Axe
3. Heavy Flamer and a Wierd Club thing that i don't know what its called
4. Combi-flamer and Power Axe
5. Reaper Autocannon and Chain fist

#1 Possossed Marines
1-5 Wierd weapon things

#1 Chaos Space Marines
1. Power Sword and Powerfist (Aspiring Champion)
2. Bolt pistol, Chainsword, and Meltabomb
3. Chainsword and Boltpistol
4. Flamer and Meltabomb
5. Bolt pistol and Khorne Banner

#2 Chaos Space Marines
1. Boltgun (Aspiring Champion)
2. Boltgun
3. Plasmagun
4. Heavy bolter
5. Boltgun

#3 Chaos Space Marines
1. Plasma pistol and Power Sword (Aspiring Champion)
2. Boltgun
3. Boltgun
4. Boltgun
5. Bolt pistol and Chainsword

#1 Bloodletters of Khorne
1-11 all with there weapon things

((I know i have terrible spelling))


Automatically Appended Next Post:

and i just got Cypher actually just a few minutes ago

Well, I can see no transports?
I'd mount all units into Rhinos and keep Termies and eventually Obliterators deep striking. In this way you could stop his tanks (LR).
I'd play defensively with 2 squads of Khorne Berzerkers and one Daemon pack.
Then I'd take a third 10 men CSM squad for scoring purposes.

GangstaMuffin24 wrote:

Nightwalker wrote:One problem with putting them into close qaurters the GK have nemesis force weapons

Force weapons are only a big threat to daemons and multi-wound models that don't have Eternal Warrior.

Also, not sure if I'm reading your list right, but why do some of your berserkers have two bolt pistols?

Mostly because when i did put my army together i chose mostly stuff i thught looked neat rather then whats useful and unfornately i used a glue that really doesn't want to get undone, also i don't have all the bits i would need to make an anti-armor army


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, we need to know exactly what the GK player is running.

3 squads is pretty vague as the GK codex has 5 possable troops choices.



are they Terminators? Strike Squads? Purifiers? Paladins? henchmen?

Paladins, henchmen and Strike Sqaud

still pretty vague.


how many in each squad,

what HQs does he run,

how many of each squad,

what equipment.

GangstaMuffin24 wrote:

Nightwalker wrote:One problem with putting them into close qaurters the GK have nemesis force weapons

Force weapons are only a big threat to daemons and multi-wound models that don't have Eternal Warrior.

Also, not sure if I'm reading your list right, but why do some of your berserkers have two bolt pistols?

Force weapons are a big deal because they're all power weapons. Every single GK (except the techmarine) comes with a NFW standard. ALL GK have power weapons. This is a HUGE issue for any PA army. I personally one shot a 9 man squad of zerkers + kharn (granted kharn killed 3 zerkers himself). Most of them died before they even got to attack. Zerkers are terrible against GK.


The best way to beat GK with Chaos is to run total cheese like 9 oblits and 2 lash princes. Fill in with vehicles, possibly min squads of termies with autocannons and/or combi-meltas in LRs. 1ksons also work very VERY well against most PA lists, but they're expensive and worthless vs anything else. Noise marines should do well too since you'll have the same number, or more shots and they're generally cheaper than GK squads. Don't take blast masters though, they're not worth it.

Your squads can even be over 10 men and footslog it since he has very limited range and he can't shoot you while you run up to him. 20 CSM > 5 purifiers in CC as long as you get the charge.

Vindicators are a god send vs GK, especially if he's running paladins. You can try them too.

While GK do have a hard time with heavy armor, enough psycannons make the point moot. For example, with my 2k list I run 14 psycannons and I've never had an issue stopping LRs. 4 S7 rending shots 14 times are evil.

My responses are general due to the general list you gave us that your brother is running.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, looking back over your list in more detail there are some serious SERIOUS errors. I'll go over them one by one.

Nightwalker wrote:
#1 Sorcecer
Plasma Pistol
Force Staff
Mark of Tzeentch
Familiar
Winds of Chaos
Bolt of Change
Doombolt

1. There is no difference between a force staff and a force sword, they're all just force weapons. This doesn't realy make any difference as long as you don't see them as something different and you're just talking about what the model has.

Nightwalker wrote:
#2 Sorcecer
Bolt Pistol
Force Sword
Mark of Tzeentch
Familiar
Winds of Chaos
Bolt of Change
Doombolt

Same as above

Nightwalker wrote:
#1 Dreadnought
Extra armor
Plasma Cannon
Close qauters weapon

No issues here.

Nightwalker wrote:
#1 Khorne Bezerker
1. 2 Chain Axes (Skull Champion)
2. Chainsword and Bolt pistol
3.Melta gun
4.Chainsword, Bolt pistol, Frag Grenade
5.Chainsword and Bolt pistol

This is a mess and very hard to understand. You have listed 5 close combat weapons, 3 polt pistols, melta gun, and frag grenades. I'll list the issues.
1. There is no difference between chain axes as chainswords.
2. One model cannot have 2 close combat weapons.
3. All models must have one close combat weapon and a bolt pistol unless upgraded to a plasma pistol.
4. All models automatically come with both frag and krak grenades, no need to list them.
5. Berzerkers cannot have melta guns.

I'm starting to think you have an out dated codex.

Nightwalker wrote:
#2 Khorne Bezerker
1. 2 Bolt pistols (Skull Champion)
2. Plasma pistol and Bolt pistol
3. Chain axe and Bolt pistol
4. 2 Bolt pistols
5. 2 Bolt pistols
6. Plasma pistol and Chainsword

This has all the same issues as above, only more. 2 bolt pistols? Is that on one model? This can't even happen.

Nightwalker wrote:
#1 Terminators
1. Twin-linked Bolter and Power fist ((Terminator Champion)
2. Combi-melta and Power Axe
3. Heavy Flamer and a Wierd Club thing that i don't know what its called
4. Combi-flamer and Power Axe
5. Reaper Autocannon and Chain fist

1. You cannot have a heavy flamer and a reaper autocannon in the same squad. Remove one.
2. There is no difference between power weapon. The wierd club thing is a power mace, but it still is just a power weapon.

Nightwalker wrote:
#1 Possossed Marines
1-5 Wierd weapon things

Don't use these. They're terrible. Also possessed have no upgrades except for chaos icons, so this again leads me to believe you're using the old dex.

Nightwalker wrote:
#1 Chaos Space Marines
1. Power Sword and Powerfist (Aspiring Champion)
2. Bolt pistol, Chainsword, and Meltabomb
3. Chainsword and Boltpistol
4. Flamer and Meltabomb
5. Bolt pistol and Khorne Banner

1. All CSM come with a bolter, bolt pistol, and a close combat weapon. In the old dex you could choose between a bolter and a bolt pistol.
2. A standar CSM cannot carry meltabombs, only the champion can.
3. Icon of Khorne is useless against GK.

Nightwalker wrote:
#2 Chaos Space Marines
1. Boltgun (Aspiring Champion)
2. Boltgun
3. Plasmagun
4. Heavy bolter
5. Boltgun

1. The way i'm reading this, I'm assuming you have 5 guys in the squad and this is what they're equipped with. If this is true, then you cannot have a heavy bolter. You may only have a heavy weapon if you have 10 or more models in the squad.
2. Don't use heavy bolters. Use a missile launcher or another special weapon, best is melta.

Nightwalker wrote:
#3 Chaos Space Marines
1. Plasma pistol and Power Sword (Aspiring Champion)
2. Boltgun
3. Boltgun
4. Boltgun
5. Bolt pistol and Chainsword

See above.

Nightwalker wrote:
#1 Bloodletters of Khorne
1-11 all with there weapon things

Bloodletters are not in the new dex. You cannot use them with a CSM army. If your opponent allows you to use Chaos Daemons with your CSM then that's fine, but understand that they no long are a choice for CSM.

Your list looks like a combination of old codex, new codex, and cheating. Reread the new codex and make sure you're doing everything right, because right now you are not.

That's what I was thinking when I read this, you must be using the old 'dex

Sorcerors actually are able to still take Familiars which allow them to take one more psychic power than normal so the Sorcerors are legal, everything else is just strange and suggests the older codex. Sorry OP, but you're going to need to make a lot of changes to your list.

You're either using an old dex or you don't know how the game works

Your list is mostly incorrect/impossible

Is it to late to say the grammar...burns my eyes?

ZeroSamurai wrote:Sorcerors actually are able to still take Familiars which allow them to take one more psychic power than normal so the Sorcerors are legal, everything else is just strange and suggests the older codex. Sorry OP, but you're going to need to make a lot of changes to your list.

right, i always miss that for some reason. Fixed it in my post.

Jaon wrote:Is it to late to say the grammar...burns my eyes?

Not massively needed in this topic, it isn't that bad, and the OP apologised for any mistakes he may have made. But to put it simply, OP, what is the picture on the front of the book?

if your cover doesn't look like this then you have the old codex.

1. I am a over eager 14 year old who assembled his models before reading the rules and also useing a old codex which my brother told me to use which was a pdf before i purchased the newest one

2. I know my grammar is crap, please just bear with me

3. Daemons are in the codex and talk about fielding them why would you not be able to use them?

4.Possessed have demonkin not that i am saying they are useful just pointing that out

5.Avacado

6. I merge my sqauds depending of which army i am fighting which has been GK, SM, and a small amount of Tallarn

Well we're here to help if you want it!

First off, I'd say that sorcerers are a bad idea against grey knights, they're excellent against psykers and you most likely won't get a spell off. Unusually you've got a good selection of troops, and plenty of them. Do you have a rhino for every squad, because that's a MUST. Overall, I'd try to keep your squads/models cheap. Do you think your sorcerers need 3 powers when they can only shoot one a turn? Do you ever get them off at all against grey knights? If they're crucial to the fluff of your army, keep them, but otherwise I'd think about taking a chaos lord with a power weapon or daemon princes with Warptime and wings, either of those are more efficient in a points basis as HQs. Champions are really expensive for their points on regular CSM, that champion with a fist is like 55 points for one model? That's a hell of a lot of points for one guy with a fist.

Honestly with your models (you haven't said what points value of game you're playing) I'd aim for something like this:

Chaos Sorcerer
Mark of Slaanesh
Lash of Submission

Chaos Sorcerer
Warptime

8 Khorne Beserkers
Champion
Power Fist
Personal Icon
Rhino

10 CSM
2 x Melta
Chaos Glory Icon
Rhino with combi-melta

5 CSM
Melta
Rhino with combi-melta

5 CSM
Chaos Glory Icon
Melta
Rhino with combi-melta

10 deamons

3 Terminators
Reaper Autocannon
2 combi-meltas

= about 1250, give or take some

Here's something I've posted before, I think it's relevant

"Now, Chaos space marine lists tend to be built around troops in rhinos, as really our troops are some of the best in the game. After that our Heavy Support and HQ slots are next powerful. The codex can be broadly broken into these categories:

Good Units:
Daemon Princes with Wings
Khorne Berzerkers
Plague Marines
Chaos Space Marines
Rhinos
Obliterators

Ok Units:
Lords without daemon weapons (cheaper tend to be better)
Chaos Terminators (again, don't kit them out too much)
Chaos Chosen with 5 meltas (or 5 of anything really, spam special weapons)
Vindicators
Predators
Defilers
Sorcerers
Land Raiders
Lesser Daemons
Greater Daemons

Bad Units:
Lords with daemon weapons (too random, can hurt yourself)
Dreadnoughts (too random, can hurt yourself)
Possessed (too random, doesn't have a specialised role until after deployment)
Noise Marines (gosh darn expensive)
Thousand Sons (again, wayyy expensive)
Bikes (really expensive)
Raptors (ok, these are somewhere between ok and bad, they're expensive, but some people swear by them)
Spawn (lol)

If you look at these lists and take mostly units from the good list, and a few units from the Ok list (if you really want them for flavour) and avoid units from the Bad section, you'll make a strong competitive list.

That being said, of course there are other ways to play this game, and some stranger builds like the Daemon Bomb (bikers with icons and chosen with icons bringing daemons in at close range or on objectives) can work well too. But in general, the chaos codex breaks down as above.

Also note, you have an odd mix of daemon models. In Codex Chaos Space Marines all daemons are treated the same, as Lesser Daemons, so you could actually use all your deamon models in one squad. It might look odd of course, it but if it fit the fluff of your army, why not.

I'll check back later if you've got any more questions, hope this helps you for now.

Lunarman "

Lunarman is true, nightwalker!! I'd try to use the list he suggested, maybe proxying some model if needed...
Try to play some game at a lower point level...

(about the models you assembled... It's true that rulewise a Berserker cannot wield 2 ccw or 2 bolt pistols... but as long as the models are cool, nobody cares... just remeber that rulewise, for example, a berserker with 2 chainaxes counts as armed with a ccw and a Bolt pistol)

Thanks guys i am gunna give that a try

I disagree with one thing. Dreads. Field them as shooty and then just make sure you're own units arn't within the 45 degree fire arc and you have nothing to worry about, you'll still be "randomly" shooting at your own dudes. Dreads are one of 2 ways to get a plasma cannon. (plus I have a FW dread and I have a strong desire to use it). But they're still good, or should at least be on the OK list.