Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've looked throught the FAQ, I've looked through the relevant section in the rulebook concerning characteristic tests and can't find anything that says otherwise.

Scenario:

Arjac throws his hammer at the Avatar of Khaine. He wounds the avatar but doesn't kill him. Does the Avatar now count as initiative 1 for the purposes of JOTWW?

Out of the Space Wolf FAQ:
Q: Is a model that has suffered an unsaved wound, but hasn't been killed, from Arjac throwing his Foehammer reduced to initiative 1 until the end of the next player turn? (p. 51)
A: Yes

Out of the rulebook:
In order to succeed (the characteristic test), you must score equal or lower than the value of the characteristic involved. Note that if a 6 is rolled, then the model automatically fails the test regardless of the characteristic's value or any other modifiers that might apply, and conversely a 1 is always a success. (p. 8)

I've looked through the FAQs and the rulebook and can't find anything to prohibit this 1-2 punch. Am I wrong?

I suppose that depends on whether or not Initiative tests are taken specifically on base Initiative. I would think that the test would be taken on the characters normal initiative, but I don't have a rule book in front of me, so I can't say for sure.

I read this tactic elsewhere months ago. I suppose you should just get a ruling wherever you are gaming before hand because I do not think there is any rule that truly clarifies one way or the other. I'm am going to try and find it and I will post a link if I do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/01/festers-oddball-and-notable-faq.html

I thought stat checks were made against unmodified stat lines?

For instance Howling Banshees charge and win combat. They are I10 for that first round of combat. The enemy fails morale and falls back. Banshees Sweeping Advance at I6 not I10 right?

I would assume this is the same as Psykout Nades for GK's. Psykers are reduced to I1 for first round of combat. They still would sweeping advance check against their unmodified I.

Then again according to the quote you wrote it doesnt exactly state that you use it unmodified so I have no clue. I'd like to know though!

veidin wrote:I thought stat checks were made against unmodified stat lines?

For instance Howling Banshees charge and win combat. They are I10 for that first round of combat. The enemy fails morale and falls back. Banshees Sweeping Advance at I6 not I10 right?

I would assume this is the same as Psykout Nades for GK's. Psykers are reduced to I1 for first round of combat. They still would sweeping advance check against their unmodified I.

Then again according to the quote you wrote it doesnt exactly state that you use it unmodified so I have no clue. I'd like to know though!

That's checking for sweeping advance, not a characteristic test. A characteristic test specifically requires you to roll equal or under your characteristic in order to pass. A sweeping advance is a roll off and compare check. It also specifically says to use the model's unmodified I value. There is no such ruling on characteristic tests. As with the grenades, I am not familiar with GK, but that is a straight reduction, not a characteristic test.

I would assume that you take characteristic tests based on unmodified values, but this is a funny tactic.

I would say yes, it works. Not particularly broken because Arjac kind of sucks for his cost, and you have to be within assault range anyway.

Yeah, I'm not really itching to try it. Arjac isn't that great obviously, but it would be great fun against say a deep-striking trygon prime or some-such.

I don't have my books on me, but the initiative penalty that Arjac's hammer gives is in combat, as an opponents initiative is really only relevant in combat. And another point is, if you are in combat you cannot shoot into combat, and I think JOTWW is a shooting attack. And as stated above initiative tests are taken on your profile stat line. Again I am without my books, but I think that's how it works.

Arjac is ridicu-gol-darn awesome. Won my golden ticket in the first and only tournament I ever used him in.

Yes, thanks to the FAQ, his hammer + Jaws works.

Mannahnin wrote:Arjac is ridicu-gol-darn awesome. Won my golden ticket in the first and only tournament I ever used him in.

Yes, thanks to the FAQ, his hammer + Jaws works.

thanks Mannahnin,

That's what I thought. Although I'm not totally sold on him (mostly because I don't have a delivery system built into my list for him), I thought this trick might work.

Just looked at the FAQ and I think your right! This is interesting. As long as the MC and IC are not part of another unit, as Arjac cannot designate a target while shooting, this seems to work out quite nicely.

I have only played with him once, and unfortunately I never got him into combat. But he did destroy a land raider with his Foehammer (big badda boom). But he is supposed to be bad a$$ because he has the ridiculously powerful hammer (strength 10, AP1), storm shield that grants +1 attack, increased WS/BS/S.

But here is the really cool part. Arjac is not an IC. He is basically just another Wolf Guard. So it does not matter if he is going toe to toe with an IC or MC, or anything for that matter, because you can allocate wounds elsewhere. His hits against IC and MC in combat can be re-rolled. He can also be attached to another unit as its pack leader.

Mannahnin wrote:Arjac is ridicu-gol-darn awesome. Won my golden ticket in the first and only tournament I ever used him in.

Yes, thanks to the FAQ, his hammer + Jaws works.

Really? I want to believe that he is good, but I just cant think of a way to get him to fit into an army list.

Characterisitc tests do NOT state use your "unmodified" values, so you use whatever value you actually have at the time you take your test.

Due to the blatant rules change for Arjac to drop enemies to I1 when throwing it, you could then Jaws them.

Acid blood (which is an init test if you wound specific tyranid models) + Lash whips does the same.

ph34r wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Arjac is ridicu-gol-darn awesome. Won my golden ticket in the first and only tournament I ever used him in.

Yes, thanks to the FAQ, his hammer + Jaws works.

Really? I want to believe that he is good, but I just cant think of a way to get him to fit into an army list.

I used him in a LR spam list at 1500. He's basically a nasty IC in CC, except that he can't be picked out. So just have him lead a normally-equipped (don't forget the wolf standard, because it benefits him even more than the other guys) grey hunter squad in either a land raider or drop pod.

At 1500 my list was roughly...

Rune priest with Jaws and Storm Caller
Arjac & two other Wolf Guard with fists & combi-meltas
3x 6 grey hunters, with meltas, power weapons, one or two of the squads with wolf standards (I think points were too tight for all three)
2x Redeemer w/multimelta, extra armor
1x regular LR w/multimelta, possibly also extra armor.

It was a bit one dimensional, but worked a treat. Got three wins including one against Nick Nanavati (yermom on Dakka), and a draw against Paul Miglino (ETC player)'s Razorspam wolves, which should have been a win except I got sloppy and made a bad assault declaraton early which was out of range, when I could have gotten a different unit easily.

Hmm. Do you think that can scale to 2000p though? Also, arjac's squad only has 3 guys?

Arjac is a wolf guard. You buy your minimum 3 (one of whom is Arjac) then split them out at the beginning of the game to each lead a squad. The whole army is three reasonably-nasty HtH squads plus a rune priest, in three LRs which can all split fire and are all assault vehicles. So despite having only three mobile/maneuver elements, you can shoot at up to six different targets each turn, and potentially move 12", hop out, and assault from any of them, thus giving you a ~21" assault threat in every direction as well.

-----------
2000, absolutely. I was borrowing my buddy Alex Fennell's models on a lark, as I didn't anticipate building an LR-spam army myself. He usually ran it at 1750 or 1850, and the night before the 1500pt event he said, "You know, you could try using my stuff..." and it became a challenge to see if we could pare it down to 1500. Which we managed.

At 2000pts, I think you'd add in some additional cheap mobile fire support- like typhoons and/or dreads. Maybe a razorback squad too so you have something to hold an objective on your side while the LRs move up. Probably beef up the GHs to full-size as well and make sure they're fully equipped. Maybe consider a squad or a dread in a drop pod for some more distant threat/backfield disruption.

I have a 2500pt "This is Sparta!" Loganwing list with Arjac, Najl+Runic TDA, and 30 Wolf Guard in TDA, all themed and modeled as Spartans with Storm Shields, Power Weapons, etc. its almost as if GW selected Arjac's point caost to fit this specific build.

SJ

Sounds sweet! Have you posted them in P&M? Maybe in Showcase, if they're all painted?

I use Arjac in a Drop Pod WG list. You have him drop in with Logan, a runepriest, a terminator with cyclone and go tank hunting.

S10 AP1 tank hunter is pure win.

But on to the topic at hand. I would say yes it works.

I suck at photography, but may be taking pics at some point. I used Sanguine Guard models on large bases with capes instead of wings, round shields (with lambdas) and spears in their right hands, some javelins in their left just behind the shields. Each unit has 2 hammers (instead of spears) and 2 guys with javelins raised in right hand (cyclones). Arjac has a bigger shield and heavier hammer, while Njal and Logan are shieldless and have a staff/javelin (Njal) and axe/javelins (Logan). They are all painted in my normal less than spectacular manner in gold with blood red capes, bases are tiled in plasticard.

I've only ever fielded them once, and explained the "cyclones" as everyone throwing their javelins at the same unit for the blast template, or just the actual guys chucking their javelins with "effort" for the krak missiles. Since Logan and Njal both have bolt weapons, I thought they just throw javelins until in CC, so it'd work. I got no complaints, so ....

SJ

If arjac was an HQ instead of an upgrade he would be an auto-include in every list of mine. He rocks so hard. His only drawback is the grimnar's champion special rule because he overkills nearly every character there is.