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HQ
CCS
vox, med, officer of the fleet, astropath 145p

CCS
vox, med, pf, standard, mg, straken
(in chim w/ ML, HB) 275p

Troops
PCS
pf, med, vox, mgx2
(in chim w/ HFx2) 155p

Infantry Sqd
vox, mg, pw
(in chim w/ HFx2) 130p

Infantry Sqd
vox, mg, pw
(in chim w/ HBx2) 130p

Infantry Sqd
vox, mg, pw
(in chim w/ HBx2) 130p

HWS
lasx3 105p

HWS
lasx3 105p

HWS
HBx3 75p

ELITES
Storm Troopersx8 133p

HVY SUPPORT
Medusa
w/ BBS 140p

LR Sqdron
2xdemo 330p

LRBT 150p

comes to 2003.

im faily new just im welcome to any advice and help

I would definitely drop one of the two hq squads. Too many points wrapped up in two units that most likely wont make up for it by killing off an equal number of enemies. If your going to take straken i would get two body guards and a medic, maybe some flamers to go with him but don't dump too many points into hq squads as one large blast template from most ordnance weapons will decimate them.

Do not take this as me being harsh...

First things first... your list is illegal. You only have 1 troop choice with a single platoon. Other illegal thing I see is the PF in Straken's CCS.

Second, if your doing Chimera rush, I will strongly urge you to consider melta vets. Yes, you can do it the way your doing it, but 3 meltas at BS 4 is just plain better than 1 as BS 3 for 25 more points. Straken is not good for a Chimera rush list.

Third, you can't give Orders to units in vehicles, even Straken to himself. You can't give Orders out of them either, but a Chimeras has the command vehicle special rule. Those voxs in the Chimera are wasted and you will be lucky to have any body survive (and pass a moral check for those that do) if their Chimera gets popped to use them.

Fourth, leave the ML on the Chimeras, as it is Str 7. Besides ACs, that is one of your best transport popping weapons. Since your assaulting, you can only fire one weapon as you move anyways... might as well be the ML. The general rule is if your Chimeras are assaulting, put a heavy flamer on the hull. If it is sitting back on a home objective or in support, leave the HB.


Whew... ok, that is done with! Now, I will tell you I like the look of your list, as I think you have some possibilities. I just can't tell what you actually want to do with it. I will suggest these changes, keeping in line with your army.

You do not want the PIS in Chimeras, you want to blob them up to make use of Straken's ability. You can /only/ blob Platoon Infantry Squads. You actually have the start to a good 30 man power blob, as ditching the Chimeras to pay for Commissars with power weapons will net you 30pts. Ditch the 2 voxes (leave one) and your up to 40pts. You don't even need 3 Commissars, as 1 will do the job for the whole blob. if you go 1 Commissar that will save you an extra 90pts for a total of 130pts. This can help you get started on a second platoon to blob up and move up with Straken.

Regimental advisors... You have one unit that is coming in from reserves. You can't delay them, when they come in they come in that turn. So seriously, ditch the Astropath... it does not pay to have it if you have less than 3 units coming in from reserve. Same really goes for OotF. Yeah, he can hammer heavy reserve armies, but not every army is a Demon army. Lists like yours with less than 3 units will either suck it up or just start on the board. On average your just delaying them 1 turn.

As for your Straken CCS squad, you can't buy Straken a PF, he has his own equipment. The Medic is over priced for FNP for that CCS, but if you insist on it, at least get a Plasmagun instead of a meltagun. I can see the Standard and Straken's bubble working well together, but many will suggest this could be a plasmagun or meltagun. Also note the CC benefit of the standard is only for the unit with it, not everyone else. The Vox is of limited use but if you insist on using Orders, this does give you a re-roll if the other unit has one. Otherwise, you guessed it, plasmagun or meltagun. These guys are BS 4, so really do not waste it on lesser weapons.

As for your other CCS, if you want to camp them back by your HWSs, ditch the vox since the HWSs don't have them, ditch the medic because no one is going to fire on them and at least get a Standard for them and keep them within 12" of the HWSs to give them a chance to not run off. You really have two choices here... give them a HWT, a standard, and a plasmagun and camo cloaks and camp them within 12" of your HWSs and hope you can get 'Bring it Down!' off or get a Lord Commissar with a Camo Cloak and sit within 6" of your HWSs to keep them from running off with his Stubborn bubble. I guess there is a 3rd option and get Creed and Kell, but this list can't afford them.

PCS... if you keep the Medic, get plasma. Otherwise ditch him and still get all plasma, melta, or flamers (because they are BS 3). Ditch the Vox for a special weapon, ditch the PF unless you totally gear them out for CC. But at the end of the day they are a 5 man squad that are not really good at CC, even with Straken around. They are a scoring unit though and should be in a Chimera. If you go all assault blob, these will be your home objective campers.

HWSs... change your HB HWS to ACs, as those are Str 7. They are scoring units so use them to camp a home objective in cover to give them a chance if they get shot. If they get assaulted, write them off. So if someone moves in close or DSs next to them... either run them away or pray you can bring down enough fire power to wipe them out. With an assault army with Straken... you might want to consider just scrapping them.

I would put your normal LRBT with a Demolisher in a squad and have it take the shots first, keeping your other Demolisher separate. All the vehicles in a squad have to fire on the same target, so this splits up your Demo shots. Your leaving your back area pretty exposed to DSing enemy, so nothing is going to protect your Medusa unless you can get a extra PIS or two to bubble wrap it and protect your rear. I would seriously consider ditching it to allow your three heavy slots to all be Russes.

Naked Storm troopers... I can see them working to drop them in the back area, but no melta means they are limited to what they are taking down. And those Hot Shots are still Str 3, even if they are AP 3. Either re-tool them or ditch them for more infantry.

Your army is based around Straken and CC weather you realize it or not. If you don't want to do CC, ditch Straken. You need to re-post anyways with a legal list, tell us what you want to do with it, how you want to play it. Do you want to assault in CC, or just melta assault? Do you want to make a gunline list? And artillery list?

hey thx for ur advice, i really appreciate i first wana a gunline/artillery list. ill repost wen i have made one


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HQ
CCS
vox, standard, 2xpg, straken 195p

TROOPS
PCS 1
vox, med, pgx2 95p

PIS 1.1
vox 55p

PIS 1.2 50p

PIS 1.3
vox 55p

PIS 1.4 50p

HWS 1.1
lasx3 105p

HWS 1.2
lasx3 105p

HWS 1.3
autox3 75p

PCS 2
vox, med, pgx2 95p

PIS 2.1
vox 55p

PIS 2.2 50p

PIS 2.3
vox 55p

PIS 2.4 50p

ELITES
Strom Trooperx9 2xmg 169p

Storm Trooperx8 2xmg 153p

HVY SUPORT
LR Sqdn
LRBT 150p
LR Demo 165p

LR Demo 165p

Medusa
w/ BBS 140p

comes to 2003

Well, you want to be under 2000pts and a single Vox can take care of that. There is no excuse for being over. For a Gunline/Artillery list, your pretty light on the Artillery and on guns. Also Straken does not work with a list like that as he doesn't sit back, he moves forward with the blobs to attack. Tanks are taking up slots that should be artillery, specially tanks with 24" range. Your telling us you want to sit back and shoot but your not taking units that let you do this. You want to use artillery but you have none. You have enough infantry now, but they are woefully under equipped. To be frank, that list is a trainwreck waiting to happen.

I will make a list for you, roughly based of off what your suggesting.

CCS - 245
Standard, 3x Meltaguns, Straken
Chimera with Hull Heavy Flamer

CCS - 80pts
AC, Standard, Plasmagun

PCS - 60pts
2x meltaguns, 2 Flamers

PIS - 110pts (blob a)
Commissar, 2x Power weapons, Meltabomb

PIS - 65pts (blob a)
Power weapons, Meltabomb

PIS - 65pts (blob a)
Power weapons, Meltabomb

PCS - 60pts
2x meltaguns, 2x flamers

PIS - 110pts (blob b)
Commissar, 2x Power weapons, Meltabomb

PIS - 65pts (blob b)
Power weapon, Meltabomb

PIS - 65pts (blob b)
Power weapons, Meltabomb

HWS - 75pts
3x AC

HWS - 75pts
3x AC

HWS - 105pts
3x LC

HWS - 105pts
3x LC

Stormtroopers - 110pts
5x troops, 2x Meltaguns, Plasma Pistol
Airborne Assault

Stormtroopers - 110pts
5x troops, 2x Meltaguns, Plasma Pistol
Airborne Assault

LR Demolisher - 165pts

LR Demolisher - 165pts

LRBT - 150pts

-2000pts

Tactics:
Russes move forward, the Infantry behind them with Starken's Chimera between the two blobs. The LRBT right infront of Straken's Chimera. These 6 units move forward to engage the enemy. The 2nd CCS sits back with the HWSs, keeping the HWSs within 12" of it for the Standard bonus and for the chance to pull off Orders like 'Bring it Down!'. You have to use the HWSs leadership for the roll, but so be it. If you are fighting alot of vehicles, give the two Orders to the LC HWSs, if it is alot of Infantry, give it to the AC HWSs. The CCS's AC is BS 4, so has a better chance to hit with it's two shots. Use the ACs for AV 11-12 or less poppers. Use the LCs on AV 12+. Keep your PCSs in the back to protect your HWSs from deep strikers and out flankers. The Flamers on clusters of troops should mean several of them are being hit and the meltas are just as good against Terminators as they are against Dreadnaughts and Vehicles. Both the HWS and the PCSs are scoring units, so sit them on home objectives in cover. Use the heavy flamer on the Chimera to burn out anyone hiding in cover if the Russes can't blast them out. Worse comes to worse you assault them out with the blobs, which are also scoring units. You hold the Stormtroopers in reserve and DS them in to blow up their artillery or heavy weapons. These are, in effect, suicide units. If they last longer than the turn they DS in and get more than 1 shooting phase off, they are an incredible success.

I ditched your artillery in this list. There are several reasons why it was a bad choice. 1) Your advancing big numbers of troops that you can scatter into. 2) You have DSing units that are going to be in the opponent's back area where you can scatter into. 3) You listed 1 unit, thus it was expendible. A single unit in a 2000pt game is ineffectual. 4) You have 3 Tanks and you listed them twice, telling me you /really/ want the tanks. The Demolishers have such a short range on a slow vehicle plus the chance to scatter makes me hope you don't blast your own Stormtroopers when they come in. To be frank, I don't like them in this list, but your insisting on them as well as the Stormtroopers.

Good luck and I hope this helps...

if i take the storm troopers out, what would i put in instead.

220pts and the removing the DS element of your force... hummm.

Vendetta - 130pts

SWS - 50pts (in Vendetta)
3x Flamers

Add 2 meltaguns to each blob, for a total of 4 for 40pts.

The Meltaguns give your Blobs further anti-Vehicle capability and can do some damage to a big MC. Have Straken issue 'BiD' using their Ld 9 (due to the Commissar) and those BS 3 shots are now twin linked, giving you a better chance to hit.

Use the Vendetta to sit back and pour on long range AT fire with tier 3 TLed LCs and then on turn 4-5 you can rush it out to contest/capture a enemy rear objective, using the SWS to burn them out. This will be real effective against Ratlings, Rangers, Scouts, Gretchen, ect. The SWS is a super cheap unit and are just there to make the Vendetta scoring and give them the ability to actually do something in combat if you use them offensively.



I was really tempted on adding some artillery, but it still would be one unit and you would be back to squadron-ing up your tanks. I was also tempted on adding Creed and Kell for your rear CCS (as well as Camo Cloaks). This would make your HWSs that much more effective but I didn't think it would be worth it and would make your CCS a priority target of DSing and out flanking units. I was even tempted to add more troops to the blob and make sure every PIS had a melta gun. I would say if you don't want the Vendetta, this might be the better choice. If I could afford two squads of Melta Vets in Chimeras I would have done that as well, but that is another 100+ points that you don't have. These Vets would move up along the flanks of your blobs to protect them from being charged by infiltrators and have the ability to rush up and melta gun a vehicle. Also gives you more scoring troops obviously.

The Vendetta gives you effectively a HWS of Lascannons that are better protected and give you twin linked, as well as shoring up the problem of dealing with troops in cover. It also allows you to keep marching forward with your blobs and not worry about having to leave any blobs back to hold an objective. Also, if you lose first turn, you can always outflank it if your opponent is really scared of it (thus he targets it first).

Your thoughts?

BlkTom wrote:220pts and the removing the DS element of your force... hummm.

Vendetta - 130pts

SWS - 50pts (in Vendetta)
3x Flamers

Add 2 meltaguns to each blob, for a total of 4 for 40pts.

The Meltaguns give your Blobs further anti-Vehicle capability and can do some damage to a big MC. Have Straken issue 'BiD' using their Ld 9 (due to the Commissar) and those BS 3 shots are now twin linked, giving you a better chance to hit.

Use the Vendetta to sit back and pour on long range AT fire with tier 3 TLed LCs and then on turn 4-5 you can rush it out to contest/capture a enemy rear objective, using the SWS to burn them out. This will be real effective against Ratlings, Rangers, Scouts, Gretchen, ect. The SWS is a super cheap unit and are just there to make the Vendetta scoring and give them the ability to actually do something in combat if you use them offensively.



I was really tempted on adding some artillery, but it still would be one unit and you would be back to squadron-ing up your tanks. I was also tempted on adding Creed and Kell for your rear CCS (as well as Camo Cloaks). This would make your HWSs that much more effective but I didn't think it would be worth it and would make your CCS a priority target of DSing and out flanking units. I was even tempted to add more troops to the blob and make sure every PIS had a melta gun. I would say if you don't want the Vendetta, this might be the better choice. If I could afford two squads of Melta Vets in Chimeras I would have done that as well, but that is another 100+ points that you don't have. These Vets would move up along the flanks of your blobs to protect them from being charged by infiltrators and have the ability to rush up and melta gun a vehicle. Also gives you more scoring troops obviously.

The Vendetta gives you effectively a HWS of Lascannons that are better protected and give you twin linked, as well as shoring up the problem of dealing with troops in cover. It also allows you to keep marching forward with your blobs and not worry about having to leave any blobs back to hold an objective. Also, if you lose first turn, you can always outflank it if your opponent is really scared of it (thus he targets it first).

Your thoughts?

i may not be understanding this correctly, but with a gun/artillery line, you move foward a little bit each time? or do you just sit back and wait for them too come to you?

very interesting... wouldnt you say the vendetta would be a priority target cause AV12 so first turn gets shot down, thats saying if theres no cover to hide it behind, i like the firepower of a vendetta

you say to add 2mg's to each blob, wouldnt it be better with the blobs to shoot at infantry rather than tanks, or is it to give them another dimension so too speak, because wouldnt you use ur HWS to take care of that, with the HWS would it be best to have a comissar close by for the Stubborn?

smally23 wrote:

i may not be understanding this correctly, but with a gun/artillery line, you move foward a little bit each time? or do you just sit back and wait for them too come to you?

Your not doing gun/artillery. You picked Staken and Demolisher tanks over gun/artillery. Though I did give you guns, you have no artillery. You apparently need to re-read Straken's special abilities. You can do Artillery, but it costs you tanks... you can do both, but the points needed to do that would require re-making the entire list. The problem is when you re-posted that list, you kept Straken even after I said he was a CC guy. You did not pick more artillery, you stuck with tanks. Tanks are not artillery. Are you sure you understand what gun/artillery means, and what Straken and Demolishers mean?

2/3s of the games you will play are objective games. You are going to have to move forward and take objectives from the enemy as well as guard against the enemy from taking your objective. Watch a few games at your local store and tell people your new and ask if anyone will help explain the game some. If your to the point of buying an army, you need the Codex and the Base Rule Book first so you can read the rules and special abilities.

smally23 wrote:very interesting... wouldnt you say the vendetta would be a priority target cause AV12 so first turn gets shot down, thats saying if theres no cover to hide it behind, i like the firepower of a vendetta

The Vendetta does not hide, because if it is hiding it is not shooting. The only time you start it hidden is if you go 2nd turn 1. Then, as a Fast vehicle, you move it out 6" and shoot all of it's weapons.

smally23 wrote:u say to add 2mg's to each blob, wouldnt it be better with the blobs to shoot at infantry rather than tanks, or is it to give them another dimension so too speak, because wouldnt you use ur HWS to take care of that,

If a vehicle gets within 6" or even 12" of your blobs where you can move within 6" of it to use the extra d6 on penetration, you use the Blob first. Besides, there is the rule that if you pop a vehicle in the shooting phase and it has infantry, your allowed to charge those infantry. You want to charge with your blobs, just make sure Straken is within 12" of the blob before it charges. Otherwise, yes, it is fine for the blobs to shoot infantry. The melta guns do a bang up job of taking out hard infantry, your lasguns don't.

smally23 wrote:with the HWS would it be best to have a comissar close by for the Stubborn?

HWSs can not have Commissars. Lord Commissars only give Stubborn to units it is attached to. Read the Aura of Discipline rule.

Ye I do own the rulebook and codex, tryn to learn the codex,
wat I ment to say is, is it worth having a lord commissar near the HWS for the LD10

Edited the above post while you were posting.

Yes, and I debated the Lord and the CCS with a Standard. The problem is they both do limited things for the Squads... the Lord makes them Ld 10 if they are within a certain range of him, but the CCS with the Standard allow them to re-roll moral and pinning checks. The Lord is cheaper, but the CCS can give Orders and is better equipped to defend itself and the HWSs.

What sold me on the CCS was the chance to issue two Orders per turn even at that Ld 7 to give the HWSs 'Bring it Down!' The CCS also has a AC and a Ld 9, so issuing 'BiD!' to itself to make that BS 4 AC twin linked (re-roll misses) with it's two shots just makes it better.

If you were doing more of a solid gunline list and didn't have Straken, I would totally suggest a Lord Commissar in a Camo Cloak to camp within range to give all the HWSs Ld 10 and then have Creed give them 'BiD!'. That is a cheap way of getting around using Kell and giving the HWSs a chance to stick around if they get shot at, vs just the Ld re-roll. Obviously, using both are best case.

BlkTom wrote:Edited the above post while you were posting.

Yes, and I debated the Lord and the CCS with a Standard. The problem is they both do limited things for the Squads... the Lord makes them Ld 10 if they are within a certain range of him, but the CCS with the Standard allow them to re-roll moral and pinning checks. The Lord is cheaper, but the CCS can give Orders and is better equipped to defend itself and the HWSs.

What sold me on the CCS was the chance to issue two Orders per turn even at that Ld 7 to give the HWSs 'Bring it Down!' The CCS also has a AC and a Ld 9, so issuing 'BiD!' to itself to make that BS 4 AC twin linked (re-roll misses) with it's two shots just makes it better.

If you were doing more of a solid gunline list and didn't have Straken, I would totally suggest a Lord Commissar in a Camo Cloak to camp within range to give all the HWSs Ld 10 and then have Creed give them 'BiD!'. That is a cheap way of getting around using Kell and giving the HWSs a chance to stick around if they get shot at, vs just the Ld re-roll. Obviously, using both are best case.

I like the idea of having creed, kell seems a bit pointless too me, the idea have a lord commissr hinging in the back but in range of re HWS is a good idea.
So in creeds ccs I'll have 2 HWS autocannons and then use the BID, it's nice that creed has 4orders to issue


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I take creed my blobs become alot weaker in combat and wudnt rly advanced forward as much is it worth taking both Straken and creed in a 2k game

smally23 wrote:I like the idea of having creed, kell seems a bit pointless too me, the idea have a lord commissr hinging in the back but in range of re HWS is a good idea.
So in creeds ccs I'll have 2 HWS autocannons and then use the BID, it's nice that creed has 4orders to issue

I really like Creed as well and use him in my list as well. Four Orders /is/ really nice, specially with a 24" range.
Kell replaces the Regimental Standard, makes all Orders go off of the Commander's Leadership (10 for Creed) instead of the targeted unit's leadership, and if in the same CCS as Creed counts as an extra Bodyguard. He is also kitted out with a power fist AND a power sword...why both, I have no clue, specially since he has pistols too. If you take away the cost for the standard (15pts), Kell is the same price as a Lord Commissar (70pts). Again, the difference is a single Ld 10 roll if they are shot at (Lord Commissar) or a Ld 7 re-roll if they get shot at and fail (Regimental Standard). Having /both/ is great and what you really want, but you can only have 2 HQ choices. But is it worth that much to protect your HWSs? Heck, a AC HWS is 75pts, that is pretty cheap, thus practically expendible. But that is for you to decide.
CCS and PCS can only have one heavy weapon in them.

smally23 wrote:If I take creed my blobs become alot weaker in combat and wudnt rly advanced forward as much

Creed can use 'For Cadia!', it is his special unique order... read it.... It is another reason why he is awesome. Tactical Genius just makes him slowed good. But since most people like Mech Guard and you can't give orders to vehicles or units in vehicles, they don't use him. And there are /alot/ of Mech Guard lists out there.

smally23 wrote:is it worth taking both Straken and creed in a 2k game

And yes, it can be worth it. But you want to protect them. Creed and Straken (even as cool as Straken is in CC) do not want to be killed. Put them in Chimeras at least and consider bodyguards for both... Having Straken means Creed can focus using the HWSs to take out vehicles and MCs, but if Straken get's killed or even if you want to make your blobs over the top and combine thier abilities (FC doesn't stake though), you can have Fearless, Furious Charge, and Counter-Attack. Putting 'For Cadia!' on Straken's unit is pointless though since he is already Fearless.

Aren't creed and kell upgrades so they don't tale up a slot in the FOC,
So then I can take straken as well or am I spending too much on special characters?

But I have 4HWS squads so then depending on the situation I can order BiD on more than one HWS sqd?

Having these guys in the army do give it a nice dimension.

Only thing is now, my blobs need to find some sort of cover, otherwise they will eat gak?

smally23 wrote:Aren't creed and kell upgrades so they don't tale up a slot in the FOC,
So then I can take straken as well or am I spending too much on special characters?

They are indeed an upgrade to a CCS. Kell does not have to be with Creed, but he works even better with him. If you want both you will need two CCS as they are upgrades to the Company Commander. Kell is effectivily an upgrade for a Regimental Standard in a CCS. They are indeed expensive, as if you use both you will probably have to do re-organize your list some. You need to understand that taking Straken means you want to use his abilities, so you build forces to take advantage of his abilities, same goes with Creed. You need to decide as a player if you can afford them, just if you do, make sure your not wasting their abilities.

smally23 wrote:But I have 4HWS squads so then depending on the situation I can order BiD on more than one HWS sqd?

Yes. Read the Order rules carefully please (pg 29 IG Codex). You can issue your maximum amount of Orders that the unit is allowed to give, and only the Orders that the unit is allowed to give. So Creed can issue 4 Orders and a base CCS can issue 2, including thier own unit. So Creed could give 'BiD!' to four HWSs.

smally23 wrote:Having these guys in the army do give it a nice dimension.

Only thing is now, my blobs need to find some sort of cover, otherwise they will eat gak?

Might want to watch the language some. Your being agressive with the blobs, so your going to take fire no matter what. If your hiding an assault blob it is not going to be able to get in assault. There are different blobs for different situations, but there are typically two types...

Bubble Wrap Blobs...
You can sit back and give them heavy weapons as well as power weapons. You use them to create a buffer between heavy support and DSing troops, Pods, Dreads, ect, by forcing them to drop beyond 6" range so they can't melta gun the heavy support. Also if troops like Vanguard Vets who can assault right away, the blob is there to prevent that from happening by taking the assault. These units are good for Plasmaguns because they are static and can be smaller (2-3 PISs) than Assault blobs.

Assault blobs...
You want to make them with at least 3-4 squads, you look at adding possible more than one Commissar to them and you really want melta guns for them. You give them more troops to suck up losses as they advance and to suck up wounds in close combat. Assault blobs are used with Straken most often.

Hope this answers some of your questions..