Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I had a rules issue at an RTT last Sat. that has broken out into a rules debate on my blog:

http://blackmoors40k.blogspot.com/2011/06/people-know-your-rules.html?showComment=1307373658702#c64122952667670597

Here is the scenario:
4 Thunderwolf Cavalry (No upgrades)
1 Thunderwolf Cavalry w/Thunderhammer
vs.
6 Purifiers w/2Halberds
1 Knight of the Flame w/MC Demonhammer

The Thunderwolves charge the Purifiers. The halberds go first and do not hit. Then the rest of the squad goes and does 4 wounds. Then the KotF strkes with his Demonhammer and does 2 wounds. How many Thunders Wolves should have died? Assume that the Purifiers passed their psychic test to activate therir force weapons.

The options are:
A) The 4 wounds get applied to the 4 Thunderwolves and 2 models are removed with no odd wounds for the force weapons to inflict insta-death. Then the Demonhammer's 2 wounds get applied to the 2 basic Thunderwolves removing another model. (3 Dead Thunderwolves)
B) At I4, 4 wounds get applied to the 4 Thunderwolves and 2 models are removed with no odd wounds for the force weapons to kill an unwounded model. Then at I1, the Demonhammer removes 2 models because the force weapon then inflicts insta-death. (4 Dead Thunderwolves)
C) 4 Thunderwolves are killed with the first 4 Force weapon wounds, then the last Thunderwolf would be taken out be the Demonhammer. (5 Dead Thunderwolves)

C

When you have four wounds on a group of identical mult-wound models that cause instant death, you have to remove a model for each wound; preferably an unwounded model.

When resolving wounds, you don't 'assign' two to each and then realize that they're ID. You start with ID wounds, removing a model for each one.

ElCheezus has it correct, Option C, 5 dead TWC.

You remove a model for each ID wound assigned to that wound group.

Using the above examples, what happens if he fails his psychic test? He then doesn't cause instant death - correct?

The problem with a lot of this reasoning is the simple fact that Force Weapons DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY cause instant death.

Force Weapons only cause instant death if you successfully pass a test; a test that can be failed or negated by a psychic hood or Space Wolf rune weapon.

The advantage that Grey Knights have is that they take one test to activate all of their force weapons “immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused” (Codex: GK pg. 54 box text). This means that a squad with I6, I4, and I1 force weapons CAN successfully activate their force weapons after the I6 models successfully cause unsaved wounds.

Sources:
(1) Codex: GK on pg. 54 says that Nemesis weapon are forces weapons as described in the BRB.
(2) BRB pg. 50 says that you roll to hit and wound as normal; THEN, you can use the force weapon against a model that suffered and unsaved wound.
(3) BRB pg. 26 says that once you have determined the number of unsaved wounds suffered by a group of identical multiple wound models, you MUST remove whole models.
(4) BRB pg. 26 says that if some of the unsaved wound there are some that inflict instant death you must remove unwounded models.
(5) Codex: GK on pg. 54 says that you take the test AFTER the unsaved wounds are caused.

The problem is that you can not consider the Force Weapon an INSTANT DEATH weapon until after they pass their psychic test which occurs AFTER unsaved wounds are allocated.

The big advantage that Grey Knights have is they take these test after the first unsaved wounds are caused for a particular INITIATIVE.

In other words if we have a squad of 5 Grey Knights; 2 of them have force halberds (I6), 2 have force swords, and one has a Daemon Hammer.

If the I6 halberd causes a wound on the above mentioned Thunder Wolves, then GK player would take a psychic test AFTER the wounds are allocated to activate all of the squads force weapons.

From that point on all the weapons cause instant death, not before.

There's a difference between allocation and resolving unsaved wounds, and that's what's tripping you up.

Allocation happens with Wounds, in order to determine how many saves each group takes, and what save they use. After you determine that and roll the saves, the allocation doesn't matter any more. At this point, we have a number of Unsaved Wounds that have been suffered by a group, and we remove models accordingly.

So in assault you:
1) roll to hit
2) roll to wound
3) allocate
4) roll saves
5) resolve unsaved wounds (remove casualties)

Force weapons activate between 4 and 5, and their effect is limited to 5. By the time we get to 5, the model-specific allocation doesn't matter anymore.

The source you cite for (3) doesn't imply that you assign the Unsaved Wounds to specific models before removing them. Rather, you count how many there are and remove appropriately. The difference is that wounds never "belong" to a model, they belong to the group of identical models.* So if you have two force wounds that become ID, it's not the case that one model has "claimed" both of them becasue it usually takes two wounds to kill. Rather, when you figure how many models should be removed, you find out they're ID, and so remove two models.

*The exception being ICs and single-model units with multiple wounds, but that's another story.

They're all dead.

4 die at I4, 1 dies at I1, but if there had been a further model alive at I1 then that too would have died.

The main rule book and the Grey Knight Codex both say that Force Weapon "activate" after the unsaved wounds are caused.

Using your timeline, that would be after #5.

Look at the reverse:
I am a Tyranid player and I assault you with a group of 5 Raveners.
Using your method if the psychic test failed due to Shadows in the Warp, I would have 5 identical models with one wound.

According to the rulebook, you allocate unsaved wounds for identical models removing whole models.

A force weapon is not a Instant Death weapon until it has been activated, which occurs after you have unsaved wounds.

Personally, I hope either INAT or GW resolve this as it is going to cause nothing but a headache until they do.

While I do believe that you are giving the proper RAI response, the RAW is different.

I guess us Grey Knight players will have to ask tournament organizers ahead of time until they clear this up....

...great, another one of those rules.


EDIT: Please prove me wrong on this one. I have a GK force that would be much better if I am wrong!

Magilla Gurilla wrote:The main rule book and the Grey Knight Codex both say that Force Weapon "activate" after the unsaved wounds are caused.

Using your timeline, that would be after #5.

The Wound becomes an Unsaved Wound after saves have been taken (or not allowed because it's a power weapon, same result). This occurs before you remove casualties due to Unsaved Wounds. This is an extra step, because you can remove any of the identical models you wish, not just the specific model to which the wound was allocated. (pg. 26)

Look at the reverse:
I am a Tyranid player and I assault you with a group of 5 Raveners.
Using your method if the psychic test failed due to Shadows in the Warp, I would have 5 identical models with one wound.

I assume we're talking about the same GK unit with the same assault resultss. When the first four wound were put onto the group, a model would have been removed with one wound left in a sort of "pool." Basically the wound hangs out until it has two more and can remove a model. Then when the Hammer wounds hit, two more models would be removed, because they're Str 8. So you'd have three dead Raveners, and a wound assigned to the group.

According to the rulebook, you allocate unsaved wounds for identical models removing whole models.

Let's be really specific about terminology here. Unsaved Wounds do not get allocated. That only happens with Wounds, before any saves are taken.

Each group of idential models basically pools their unsaved wounds until there are enough to kill a model, at which point we remove a casualty. They don't actually get assigned to a model at any point, just tallied. (again, pg. 26)

The only time an Unsaved Wound is assigned to a specific model is when it is a single-model unit with multiple wounds. So basically MCs and ICs.

A force weapon is not a Instant Death weapon until it has been activated, which occurs after you have unsaved wounds.

Personally, I hope either INAT or GW resolve this as it is going to cause nothing but a headache until they do.

While I do believe that you are giving the proper RAI response, the RAW is different.

I guess us Grey Knight players will have to ask tournament organizers ahead of time until they clear this up....

...great, another one of those rules.


EDIT: Please prove me wrong on this one. I have a GK force that would be much better if I am wrong!

Pg 26, yet again: "If amongst the unsaved wounds there are some that would cause instant death, the player must first, if possible, remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound that causes instant death, and then proceed as normal. This rule is designed to stop players avoiding single wounds by putting them on a model that has suffered instant death anyway."

If you want Force Weaopns to activate after processing the wounds, then they never do anything, ever. If you're already to the point where you're "assigning" wounds to a model, then you're past the point where you process instant death wounds, because ID wounds have to be done first to prevent exactly the kind of tricks that options a) or b) in the OP allow.

the force weapons are activated before wounds are allocated.

the instant a GK unit causes its 1st unsaved wound in combat, you roll for the test.


all wounds(including the one which just happened) will now inflict instant death.



it would be alot clearer if you simply rolled the test before any blows are struck, but thats GW.

Grey Templar wrote:the force weapons are activated before wounds are allocated.

Absolutely incorrect. Force Weapons activate after saves are taken. Allocation takes place before saves.

This is nitpicking terminology, but using it incorrectly can cause a lot of confusion. (It's happened to a lot of other wound-related threads I've seen)

I agree Grey Templar, the wording of Force Weapons is shaky at best.

Even if they had said roll to wound, if any wounds are caused roll for the psychic test...

...the unsaved wounds portion is what is holding it up for me because of the wording in the second paragraph for unsaved wounds on multiple wound models and...

the fact the psychic test is taken IF there are any unsaved wounds.

Honestly - I am not complaining if this is going to be the rules interpretation; it will greatly benefit us Grey Knight players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ElCheezus is correct, the wording held me up.

I admit that I was wrong.

I think I might have sorted it out myself per pages 25, 26, and 50 of the BRB and page 54 of Codex Grey Knights.

Single Wound Models:
1. Roll to hit
2. Roll to wound
3. Allocate wounds
4. Remove unsaved wounds

Multiple Wound Models against normal weapons or force weapons that fail to activate.
1. Roll To Hit
2. Roll to Wound
3. Allocate Wounds
4. Determine the number of unsaved wounds
5. Remove whole models as casualties when possible.

Multiple Wound Models against Force Weapons which successfully activates
1. Roll To Hit
2. Roll to Wound
3. Allocate Wounds
4. Determine the number of unsaved wounds
5. Force Weapon Activates successfully
6. Individual models are removed per then instant death rules.

Goodness - what a chore to figure out that murky water.

Judging by the example, only 4 thunderwolves would die. 2 from the initiative four weapons and two from the hammer.

Grey knight force weapons only cause instant death after 'the first unsaved wounds are caused.'

As all the initiative 4 wounds are caused at the same time, they would kill two thunder wolves. The force weapons would then proc and the grey knights would be able to take their test to see if their weapons are activated.

Assuming the test is passed, the daemonhammer's wounds would cause Instant Death.

-Nara

Another wrench in the wheel. Technically with the force weapon, only one unsaved wound can cause ID. So some models may have caused 2 wounds, one of which could be ID and the other normal, and other models could have caused no wounds or 3 or 4 wounds (on the charge or with falchions). So theoretically you should have to roll each model individually, separate them accordingly, then figure out who's dead, instead of rolling all at once.

The last time I read this thread, the consensus was the same as the majority here: five dead TWC. That is the interpretation that makes the most sense to me after careful study of the BRB.

Also, everything elcheezus said

One unsaved wound may cause ID, but they all happen at the same time so they are allocated and resolved simultaneously.

As, GK FW are somewhat different than normal ones due to their wording, the BRB only really helps to further the view of only 4 TWolves dying.

I'm somewhat confused how it can be interpreted otherwise, could you please provided relevant quotes with sources?

-Nara

6 NFW wounds + passed activation vs 5 multi-wound models w/o EW = 5 dead models.

SJ

invisiblade wrote:Another wrench in the wheel. Technically with the force weapon, only one unsaved wound can cause ID. So some models may have caused 2 wounds, one of which could be ID and the other normal, and other models could have caused no wounds or 3 or 4 wounds (on the charge or with falchions). So theoretically you should have to roll each model individually, separate them accordingly, then figure out who's dead, instead of rolling all at once.

Grey Knight force weapons work differently. If the test is passed, the whole squad's wounds cause ID.

Naravus wrote:Judging by the example, only 4 thunderwolves would die. 2 from the initiative four weapons and two from the hammer.

Grey knight force weapons only cause instant death after 'the first unsaved wounds are caused.'

As all the initiative 4 wounds are caused at the same time, they would kill two thunder wolves.

No. Taking saves (and failing them) is a *separate step* from Removing Casualties. So, BEFORE you remove a model, you must check to see if it is an ID causing wound - which, as the NFW check applies in between failing a save and removing casualties, it IS

You are forgetting that allocation is before taking saves, and that taking saves is before you remove casualties. When you fail a save you do not apply that save to a specific model at the point at which you take the save, but after.

On a side note, this was some poor sportsmanship by the SW player. He was trying to misplay for advantage. I do not charge TWolves against GKs precisely because of the instant death if the test goes off. If he risked it, that is his tactical error; trying to twist the rules to then cover for bad playing leaves a very sour taste in the mouth. A judge should have been called to rule- at least then there is a chance it would have been called close to correct!

Option B.

Fetterkey wrote:Option B.

Except that's been proven wrong in the thread.

Its option C.With no EW or invuns,the squad of 5 are removed due to ID.

Eternal Warrior wouldn't help you against a Force weapons ID.

Zeus - wrong. EW are immune to ID. FW (now) all cause ID.

Ew is on p.74 maybe you should have a look.

and the INSTANT DEATH RULE is p. 26

Its not even a grey area.

SIgh.

EW protects you from the effects of instant death. The effects of instant death are laid out on page 26, and consist of a model losing all remaining wounds.

You're wrong.

nosferatu1001 wrote:SIgh.

EW protects you from the effects of instant death. The effects of instant death are laid out on page 26, and consist of a model losing all remaining wounds.

You're wrong.

Well maybe where you live i'm wrong.
But in the 4 different states that I have played it's always been a simple as... READ what Eternal Warrior Says ... then READ what the instant death rule says.

I used to be you is the funny part...

Sorry if I just nerfed you favorite Charater. That was never my intention.

Zeus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:SIgh.

EW protects you from the effects of instant death. The effects of instant death are laid out on page 26, and consist of a model losing all remaining wounds.

You're wrong.

Well maybe where you live i'm wrong.
But in the 4 different states that I have played it's always been a simple as... READ what Eternal Warrior Says ... then READ what the instant death rule says.

Note how the Force Weapon rule explicitly specifies that the enemy model suffers instant death regardless of toughness. Thus, the enemy is subject to the instant death rule, but with the modification that it doesn't have to be double toughness. Guess what Eternal Warrior protects from?

Zeus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:SIgh.

EW protects you from the effects of instant death. The effects of instant death are laid out on page 26, and consist of a model losing all remaining wounds.

You're wrong.

Well maybe where you live i'm wrong.
But in the 4 different states that I have played it's always been a simple as... READ what Eternal Warrior Says ... then READ what the instant death rule says.

I used to be you is the funny part...

Sorry if I just nerfed you favorite Charater. That was never my intention.

Maybe you should read the Tenets of You Make Da Call before insulting a poster having a thousand times more posts than you do, with a huge chunk of those in YMDC.

You also never showed how force weapons do not use the instant death rule.

Zeus wrote:Well maybe where you live i'm wrong.
But in the 4 different states that I have played it's always been a simple as... READ what Eternal Warrior Says ... then READ what the instant death rule says.

Regardless of where you live, you are wrong. You also committed a wonderful logical fallacy there.

Please, lay out an argument. Any argument. You have yet to do so, and are in violation of the tenets of dakka currently.

Zeus wrote:I used to be you is the funny part...

Sorry if I just nerfed you favorite Charater. That was never my intention.

You used to be right?

You've not done anything to any character. If you want to play it that FW ID somehow bypasses a rule stating you ignore ID, good for you. Doesnt affect me or everyone else who knows how the rule works...