Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I reckon that being allowed to take all saves is a cool idea e.g. A SM captain would take his armour and invulnerable save
Like, you roll to hit, to wound and then the other person takes ALL saves.

So you basically want to destroy all shooting in the game?

Melissia wrote:So you basically want to destroy all shooting in the game?

It doesn't destroy shooting, I have seen it. Most invuns are rubbish anyway.

elementbender wrote:

Melissia wrote:So you basically want to destroy all shooting in the game?

It doesn't destroy shooting, I have seen it. Most invuns are rubbish anyway.

Then you haven't playtested this against a shooty army. No. Don't lie to me. You haven't.

Being able to take armor saves, invulnerable saves, cover saves, AND FNP saves would make many units utterly invincible.

It would make the game more realistic but it would just make units too hard to kill, just imagine trying to kill a squad of TH/SS Terminators in cover and you had to roll:
- To hit
- To wound
- For the player to fail his 2+ save
- Then fail his 3+ save
- Then fail his 4+ save

all just to kill one model.

And the TH/SS termies get FNP for some reason! Actually I had some friends that just started and thought that you did get normal or cover and then an invulnerable. I told them if that was the case I am taking fatecrusher list (re-roll 3+, re-roll 4/5+ for nearly the entire army)

rogersss wrote:It would make the game more realistic but it would just make units too hard to kill, just imagine trying to kill a squad of TH/SS Terminators in cover and you had to roll:
- To hit
- To wound
- For the player to fail his 2+ save
- Then fail his 3+ save
- Then fail his 4+ save

all just to kill one model.

And the another 4+ for FNP. Yeah, they will never die.

My Deathwing Assault Terminators with Apothecary LOVE this idea!

Or a gk pally list.

So when you take an armor save, you don't roll your invuln save? (Termies for example) [Noob here.]

You choose which save you take. For example, Guardsmen frequently choose to take cover saves instead of their armor saves, even when their armor saves are not being ignored. The only exception is Feel No Pain, which you take alongside another save, except when FNP is ignored.

Melissia wrote:You choose which save you take. For example, Guardsmen frequently choose to take cover saves instead of their armor saves, even when their armor saves are not being ignored. The only exception is Feel No Pain, which you take alongside another save, except when FNP is ignored.

Oh okay, so an invuln save with an armor save is really only there for when your armor save is negated?

b11a2 wrote:

Melissia wrote:You choose which save you take. For example, Guardsmen frequently choose to take cover saves instead of their armor saves, even when their armor saves are not being ignored. The only exception is Feel No Pain, which you take alongside another save, except when FNP is ignored.

Oh okay, so an invuln save with an armor save is really only there for when your armor save is negated?

That's it. This is an advantage over only-armor-saves units, as they nearly always have a save (there are very few weapons that ignore invulnerable saves TOO) ^^

Thanks IronChaos! For some reason that didn't click with me in the rulebook.

tiekwando wrote:And the TH/SS termies get FNP for some reason! Actually I had some friends that just started and thought that you did get normal or cover and then an invulnerable. I told them if that was the case I am taking fatecrusher list (re-roll 3+, re-roll 4/5+ for nearly the entire army)

Wait a second... Where? Not in the standard SM codex they don't, they just get a 3+ invulnerable because of the storm shields.

i have played were termies got there invun AND armour saves.
the reason for this was that the termie armour is massivly thick and incoperates an energy sheild.
i do sumtimes allow cover and armour/invun or all 3 saves together but only were appropiate I.E. a fun game.
however when all saves are combined this can and does unbalance the game so only really play this way in a fun game.

Sam__theRelentless wrote:

tiekwando wrote:And the TH/SS termies get FNP for some reason! Actually I had some friends that just started and thought that you did get normal or cover and then an invulnerable. I told them if that was the case I am taking fatecrusher list (re-roll 3+, re-roll 4/5+ for nearly the entire army)

Wait a second... Where? Not in the standard SM codex they don't, they just get a 3+ invulnerable because of the storm shields.

It's quite easy to give units FNP from various sources.

Especially in the BA codex.

2+ terminator save, 3++ shield save, 4+ FNP, 4+ cover, 5++ terminator save (shield gives, not replaces).
That makes 108 : 1 chance of saving a wound.
You DO know that TH/SS termies are a bargain in most SM armies? Even without FNP, cover and second inv save they would become ridiculous.
But that's nothing. Try getting past jetbike seer council's 3+, 4++, and 3+ cover. Everything rerolable.

Melissia wrote:

Sam__theRelentless wrote:

tiekwando wrote:And the TH/SS termies get FNP for some reason! Actually I had some friends that just started and thought that you did get normal or cover and then an invulnerable. I told them if that was the case I am taking fatecrusher list (re-roll 3+, re-roll 4/5+ for nearly the entire army)

Wait a second... Where? Not in the standard SM codex they don't, they just get a 3+ invulnerable because of the storm shields.

It's quite easy to give units FNP from various sources.

Especially in the BA codex.

Okay Mel, soz. But they don't come with it by default!

b11a2 wrote:Thanks IronChaos! For some reason that didn't click with me in the rulebook.

You're welcome, I needed some time to realise about that too ^^

The game isn't designed around units being able to take multiples saves. 4+ FNP is contentious enough as it is.

If you want beefy multi-wound characters with multiple overlapping saves, then be prepared to pay significantly more for them, probably about twice as much at the very least.

Without save modifiers and most weapons only doing 1 wound, overlapping saves would kill this game very quickly.

After switching to the AP system and getting rid of multiple wound causing abilities on most weapons, they got rid of overlapping saves. If you want overlapping saves like in 2nd Ed, then we need to go back to 2E weapons where a Heavy Bolter would only allow a Space Marine to save with his armor on a 6+, and each shot inflicted D4 wounds.

Indeed, this rule would be ok if it had something like Necromunda's armor save modifiers. In Necromunda, even someone with a 2+ armor save isn't as scary, since weapons will reduce their armor saves a decent amount.

Multiple wounds from shooting owuld be good...but then Tyranids get even worse, and we have to redesgign the whole damn game.

Not to mention how much more time all this will take.

Yeah, I've always been thinking about how 40k is designed for younger people and is a lot easier to understand. I mean, the rules are really simple compared to those of WHFB and others...

Seriously, ever noticed how THE most complicated thing in 40k gameplay is wound allocation? And even that is pretty simple if you think about it for a while.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, should've contextualized that:

That's why the AP/S system is really simple, without any tables or modifiers. In fact, the only two tables are the "to hit" and "to wound'!

Which is fine, it means the game is easy to set up, easy to play, and goes along smoothly. You only need to worry about the tactics on the board, not memorizing a lot of awkward rules.

Well, a lot more awkward rules at any rate.

I think it's more the awkward rules are in the codices. Like when you had to roll to see if you could see the GKs.

They tried all these ideas before....it was called 2nd edition...

Melissia wrote:

elementbender wrote:

Melissia wrote:So you basically want to destroy all shooting in the game?

It doesn't destroy shooting, I have seen it. Most invuns are rubbish anyway.

Then you haven't playtested this against a shooty army. No. Don't lie to me. You haven't.

Being able to take armor saves, invulnerable saves, cover saves, AND FNP saves would make many units utterly invincible.

This sums up my opinnion on this. Some models would get a ridiculous amount of saves.

Could you imagine facing off against an Eldar Jetbike council with fortune up?

Now, not only do you have to hit, wound and I get to re-roll my saves, but I get both my 3+ and my 4++? Yeah, I'd probably screen them at that point, just to laugh to give them another re-rollable 4+ save you'd have to go through.

Melissa ain't kidding. I've played with this rule before and while I love it (because it makes freaking sense) it is incredibly overpowered against shooting.
When my friends and I did it this way, the order of operations we used was:
Cover save -> Invul Save -> Armor save -> FnP
Makes sense right? Your sandbag fails, your bubble shield is up next. If that fails, your power armor. Then lastly your FnP.
I ran plague marines (which aren't even the worst ones) to test it. Result was complete immunity to small arms.
I can imagine much more imbalance, specifically with the blood angle codex or any codex that can get 4+ or better armor save, FnP and invuls.
Now, on the other hand, it made certain units worth using, most specifically vanilla terminators. It was nice to see them actually survive shooting for a change, in a world where GW freely hands out AP2 like candy.
Currently we're planning on testing this again except with a universal -1 to cover saves and invul saves to a minimum of 6+

It hurts some units more than others. For example my boyz in KFF will only get a 6+ or a 5+ in ruins, making them weaker in shooting but nobs with cybork body, ard armor and a dok will surpass terminators.

Personally, I think its a GREAT idea. It throws GW's balance completely off but its not like GW cares much about balance anyway.

EDIT: The above being said, its important to keep in mind that this change also affects close combat.
Anything that has an invul save in addition to an armor save will be seeing a boost in CC survivability, again, throwing GW balance off but again, screw GW. It makes for fluffier battles. Chaos lords dying to bolter/las/ fire or just a ton of bayonettes is the lamest thing ever. Being able to take a 5++ on top of 3+ is nice. More so for force commanders.

terranarc wrote:Chaos lords dying to bolter/las/ fire or just a ton of bayonettes is the lamest thing ever.

No it's not, it's the most AWESOME thing ever!

Still, the problem is that the rule really, REALLY favors Marine armies. Guard, Orks, and Tyranids would seriously suffer for this.