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Just looking for any tactical advice, specifically what works better for you, Raider spam or the webway portal and why

MSU spam is probably a more accurate term due to the arrival of Venoms as well as a couple viable (and thought to be viable) footslogging options.

In any case, some form of skimmer spam is what I believe works best, just as it did under the old Codex. Units starting on the board Turn 1 for alpha strike impact will beat out "I hope this works" WWP shenanigans every time. There's also less points of failure to a vehicle spam list.

Vehicles are reliable. WWPs are risky.

That's pretty much the whole story.


Which is not to say that WWPs aren't hella fun.

Vehicles are reliable. WWPs are risky.

That's pretty much the whole story.


Which is not to say that WWPs aren't hella fun.

+1

WWP can be pretty cool (and likely a bit cheaper $ wise). Plus it gives you the chance to use those awesome Talos models!

What about, in a larger point game, having some of both? Have some warriors and trueborn w/blasters zooming around causing chaos. Then sneak an archon or haemonculus with a webway portal up the field and BAM! screeching talos or wracks or wyches come pouring out while you cackle maniacally? I think it at least sounds fun.

The problem is not just a problem with points, you are also limited by the FOC. For example most standard/skimmer based lists take 3 Ravagers for Heavy, while Portal lists usually take Talos instead. Not maxing out one or the other isn't really optimal, because you lose redundancy and overall effectiveness. Going from 1-2 and 2-3 of something increases your effectiveness close to exponentially, i.e having 2 of something is more than twice as good as having one of something. Its not really worth taking a Portal just to bring 1-2 units through, because you could just as easily buy them a transport (or change to a similar unit which can take a transport) and stay in theme. The Portal only becomes worth it when you are delivering 4+ units, where you are starting to save significantly on Raiders.

Vehicle heavy lists are possible in multiple different forms now, but whether you go Venom Spam, Dark Lance Spam, Assault based with Raiders or a list built around the fliers they are all competitive/viable. Portal based lists also work, but getting them to work in a competitive environment is a bit harder because they will always have a significant weakness going second. If you can get around this they end up being more devastating than the skimmer based lists though. Foot based list (i.e without a Portal) are probably the hardest to make work, I think the tools are in the codex to make them viable but I haven't seen anyone run something competitive yet (beyond a few interesting theoryhammer lists).

You generally have to mix things up a bit in a WWP army because you need some vehicles to deliver the portal up the board rapidly (unless you want to risk deploying the Haemi/Archon holding the portal upboard behind cover).

I generally have at least one Raider and one Venom on the board in my WWP lists. I tend to mix things up a lot, but generally: The Raider(s) has a Haemi and a unit of Wracks, Wyches, whatever, with the WWP. I always try to have at least two WWPs, but have risked only one in the past.

The Venom has Trueborn with blasters to threaten targets and draw fire. I usually have a Ravager on the board as well.

If I don't get first turn, then I deploy everything behind LoS cover to avoid getting shot to pieces. If that's not possible, that's trouble, but you do what you can to mitigate it.

Out of the portal comes some combination of:
-Hellions (at least 10, with a Helliarch + power weapon)
-Wyches (
-Talos
-Incubi

No matter what you do, you MUST put down a WWP first turn. It's better to drop it farther away than you want it than to have your reserves arrive and have to march up the board! When I had just started the game and was learning to play, I had this happen and had Incubi arrive turn 2 and spend the next four turns moving and running up the board, never reaching combat.

It was sad.

I caused a problem for a DE army using Webway Portals the other day. He only dropped on, and I was able to completely surround it before he was able to bring units out of it. So on turn 2 all of his reserves had to walk on from the boards edge. Really saved me big.

That's another reason I take Hellions in the WWP. They can still jump onto the board over a blockade and make a mess.

Good points guys! I knew there was a reason I actually signed up at Dakka (usually Im just a filthy lurker.) Now IIRC no vehicles can come out he portal right?

Correct, no vehicles. As far as my last game, he had Reavers, but they did not come one that turn.

WWP works well at 2000pts and up. To effectively deploy the portals you will need just shy of 400pts. Since this 400pts will most likely get shot to pieces you cannot count on the units still being around. I've found the loss of 400pts not to bad at higher pt levels since it means the rest of my force is coming in from the middle of the board but at lower point levels its just to much of a percentage of my army.

I have been toying with making a WWP DE list just to be different, but I can't get my head around the sheer unreliability of the list. I pretty much only play in tournaments or practice games for tournaments these days, and I keep seeing that one unit holding the WWP getting smoked by a manticore first turn, even in cover and then auto-losing the game.

I could see how if you could find a technique to reliably get the portal down first turn and you took a large number of fast, powerful assault units in redundant numbers the list could be brutal. DE assault units have the state to go up against almost any other list and have good odds of winning. But the issue is then having units to pop transports in large enough amounts to make that viable. I don't know if haywire grenades will cut it.

I think the Cronos is the right support unit for an army like this as they can quickly ramp your assault units up in power with pain tokens. That interaction between units is what really attracts me to the army, much like Footdar. The synergy between units sounds like it would be really fun to use if you could pull it off.

I wish there was a character that could take a bike and a WWP, that would be so much more effective. And a way to manipulate reserves.

I may try some lists out in proxy but I just don't see it being all that competitive of a list.

I usually run a WWP at 1500+ pts. But only one portal, and one unit in reserve, the Baron and a buncha hellions.

The WWP delivery is a heamy with some grots. And I also have another heamy in the list in case I have to make them fearless, to prevent PBS or other shenannighans.

Reecius wrote:I could see how if you could find a technique to reliably get the portal down first turn and you took a large number of fast, powerful assault units in redundant numbers the list could be brutal.

Would a Haemy in a squad of Harlys (with a Shadowseer) be reliable enough?

I haven't tried it yet but it would seem they would have the most success - perhaps adding the Baron to the group too? Granted they would only advance the portal placement 6" (not counting the diameter of the portal) but most of our Fast Attack slots can either move or assault 12" minimum anyway.

Just thinking out loud.

Reecius wrote:I have been toying with making a WWP DE list just to be different, but I can't get my head around the sheer unreliability of the list. I pretty much only play in tournaments or practice games for tournaments these days, and I keep seeing that one unit holding the WWP getting smoked by a manticore first turn, even in cover and then auto-losing the game.

I play around 1500pts or so usually and I always take at least two WWPs so I can get one dropped turn one and then, if necessary, get the second further up the board.

This is good because it keeps them from surrounding both portals and keeps them guessing where you're going to come on from.


Another tip: If you use a unit that can outflank or deepstrike, they can still come on through the portal even if you've specified they'll be outflanking or deepstriking. So, deepstrike those Scourges and if you want to avoid the hassle of scatter dice, they can enter via portal. (This is also one of the only ways I've found to make Mandrakes any good.)

Another sidenote: Mandrakes and a Haemi are an interesting unit for delivering the portal, if you can deploy in cover (3+ save from Stealth, 5i save for the rest) and don't mind risking a unit outside a vehicle. It also gets the Mandrakes their ranged attack, which is pretty decent.

Reecius wrote:I have been toying with making a WWP DE list just to be different, but I can't get my head around the sheer unreliability of the list. I pretty much only play in tournaments or practice games for tournaments these days, and I keep seeing that one unit holding the WWP getting smoked by a manticore first turn, even in cover and then auto-losing the game.

I've been playing around trying to get a competitive WWP list going - here's some initial thoughts.

1. You should always have at least 2 portal carriers, nothing less is even worth considering.
2. You do need to arrange for a certain amount of anti-tank that can start on the board.
3. You can deploy Dedicated Transports and reserve the units that took them.

My current focus is arranging a list with roughly this concept;

Baron Sathy (WWP is *very* important to go first with)
2+ Haemy Portal Carriers
2+Trueblaster Squads (Haemys go here)
An Array of 10 man Wych squads - they will take Raiders, Raiders will start on board, and Wyches go in reserve
Beastmasters.
Talos/Cronos

Thus I get to start on board with 5+ vehicles, allowing me a reasonably solid alpha strike.
1 Portal is deployed turn 1, the second portal is held onto to deploy turn 2 deeper into enemy lines.

So far it's doing...okay. I'm not sure I have the mix right, and the pain token on the Haems is being wasted on the Trueblasters which irritates me, but I don't want to go Blaster Archon either. That said, it's a WWP list that still bloodies the opponent's nose on turn one, and forces him to start target prioritizing right away, which is a good thing to play the reactive game you want your opponent to fall into.

Since I am currently rolling deep at 1k, sounds like I better expand my army before I try any WWP hijinx. Thor you have a pretty cool sounding idea there. All the advice is appreciated, and by all means continue dishing it out

Thor665 wrote:I've been playing around trying to get a competitive WWP list going - here's some initial thoughts.

1. You should always have at least 2 portal carriers, nothing less is even worth considering.
2. You do need to arrange for a certain amount of anti-tank that can start on the board.
3. You can deploy Dedicated Transports and reserve the units that took them.

My current focus is arranging a list with roughly this concept;

Baron Sathy (WWP is *very* important to go first with)
2+ Haemy Portal Carriers
2+Trueblaster Squads (Haemys go here)
An Array of 10 man Wych squads - they will take Raiders, Raiders will start on board, and Wyches go in reserve
Beastmasters.
Talos/Cronos

Thus I get to start on board with 5+ vehicles, allowing me a reasonably solid alpha strike.
1 Portal is deployed turn 1, the second portal is held onto to deploy turn 2 deeper into enemy lines.

So far it's doing...okay. I'm not sure I have the mix right, and the pain token on the Haems is being wasted on the Trueblasters which irritates me, but I don't want to go Blaster Archon either. That said, it's a WWP list that still bloodies the opponent's nose on turn one, and forces him to start target prioritizing right away, which is a good thing to play the reactive game you want your opponent to fall into.

So you're basically building a list that uses the WWPs to deliver Wyches and Talos (Taloi?)?

I know you're gonna be suspicious, but I've found one of my best units out of a WWP are Hellions. Ten Hellions, looking for trouble, with a 12" reach, splinter pods, then assault, are pretty vicious, despite the lack of power weapons.

@Foo - also Beastmasters.

The only advantage I see to Hellions over Wyches is that they can't be locked up by portal surrounding tactics. I'm confident enough in my play skill to not be trapped by portal surround tactics, so I don't see the advantage.

Also, Wyches give me Raiders to start on the board, Hellions won't.

Yeah, Beastmasters are a damn good unit, too. And good point about the transports.

I also like Hellions for the Hit&Run, but that doesn't put more anti-mech on the board.

Thanks for some of the great feedback, guys.

Yeah, I want to like the WWP army but I just don't see it getting past the casual level of play due to its random nature, just as all of you pointed out. However, I could see it being a ton of fun if you orchestrate it well and pull off the sweet combinations it offers.

I think it could do rather well at lower level tourney play.
I wouldn't bring it to a GT though.

Well luckily I dont have to worry about tourney level play...yet. Im still just playing locally making sure I learn the rules right.