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Partially with the 6th edition apparently closing in slowly, I suggest that an additional special rule for weapons is added: Fire.
This is partially to eliminate all the conflicts about what can actually hurt the Avatar (nope, the Flamespurt can hurt it, as can the Gauntlet of the Forge - it doesn't say anywhere they cannot!) but I can also imagine that there are some who could be vulnerable to fire - tyranids and beasts especially comes to mind, but also scourges with their feathered wings...

I don't have access to all codexes, but these are the weapons I think should have the Fire special rule:
Flamer
Heavy Flamer
Incinerator
Flamestorm Cannon
Dragons Breath Flamer
Flamespurt
Inferno Cannon
The Gauntlet of the Forge
Warpfire
Incendiary Castellan Missile
Burna
Skorcha

Have I missed anything? And how does the idea sound?

I think it would be a good idea, and maybe Fire type weapons also ignore cover, though that might be a bit OP,
or maybe if they are a template/blast weapon they ignore cover but if they are a non-template/blast they reduce cover by -1?

AFAIK, all the listed weapons ignore cover already since they're template weapons (unsure about Gauntlet of the Forge, Warpfire and Flamespurt, since i've never heard of them), bar the Incediary Castellan, which is noted as ignoring cover in its rules.

Avatar 720 wrote:AFAIK, all the listed weapons ignore cover already since they're template weapons (unsure about Gauntlet of the Forge, Warpfire and Flamespurt, since i've never heard of them), bar the Incediary Castellan, which is noted as ignoring cover in its rules.

Gauntlet of the Forge (Vulkans weapon)- works as a heavy flamer
Warpfire (Horror weapon)- does not ignore cover
Flamespurt (Pyrovore weapon) - works as a heavy flamer

So I guess fire weapons should ignore cover in some way, even when they aren't template weapons (which admittely doesn't happen very often).

Also, the pyrovores Volatile special rule and the supa-skorcha should have the Fire rule.

As long as all fire weapons are template weapons (and assuming templates are unchanged in 6th, I can't imagine how they could be changed but being GW, i'm sure they'll find a way), with those that aren't (Incendiary Castellan, Warpfire etc.) being given an explicit rule like the Incendiary already has, then ignoring cover would be a largely redundant part of a 'Fire' rule.

Maybe the "Fire" rule would have an effect representing lingering flames, eg: After damage is calculated, roll a D6 for each wound caused. On the roll of a (X), the flames continue to burn and an additional wound is caused. These new wounds cannot cause additional wounds.

(X) would be a figure depending on the flamer itself. For example, a Hand Flamer may be 6+, while the Warhound's Inferno Cannon (The largest flamer in the game) would be a 2+.

Saintspirit wrote:Partially with the 6th edition apparently closing in slowly, I suggest that an additional special rule for weapons is added: Fire.
This is partially to eliminate all the conflicts about what can actually hurt the Avatar (nope, the Flamespurt can hurt it, as can the Gauntlet of the Forge - it doesn't say anywhere they cannot!) but I can also imagine that there are some who could be vulnerable to fire - tyranids and beasts especially comes to mind, but also scourges with their feathered wings...

I don't have access to all codexes, but these are the weapons I think should have the Fire special rule:
Flamer
Heavy Flamer
Incinerator
Flamestorm Cannon
Dragons Breath Flamer
Flamespurt
Inferno Cannon
The Gauntlet of the Forge
Warpfire
Incendiary Castellan Missile
Burna
Skorcha

Have I missed anything? And how does the idea sound?

Out of all of this, the only question I can think of is, how would this stop these weapons from hurting the Avatar of Khaine...? You stated that both the Gauntlets of the Forge and Flamespurt works as a heavy flamer. Then, he would be immune... o_O

Amanax wrote:Out of all of this, the only question I can think of is, how would this stop these weapons from hurting the Avatar of Khaine...? You stated that both the Gauntlets of the Forge and Flamespurt works as a heavy flamer. Then, he would be immune... o_O

No, they just have the same profile as a heavy flamer. The thing is that it doesn't state in the avatars rules that he is immune to these weapons - rule-wise, he is only immune to flamers, heavy flamers, incinerators and inferno cannons, along with melta weapons.

Ah, same profile. I got ya. All released since the poor Avatar was too. You'd think they would have added it to the FAQ, but I do agree. Things should be more clearly designated. I wouldn't go so far as to say a new weapon type with special rules, but even just a basic listing of words to associate "flame" weapons.

Saintspirit wrote:

Amanax wrote:Out of all of this, the only question I can think of is, how would this stop these weapons from hurting the Avatar of Khaine...? You stated that both the Gauntlets of the Forge and Flamespurt works as a heavy flamer. Then, he would be immune... o_O

No, they just have the same profile as a heavy flamer. The thing is that it doesn't state in the avatars rules that he is immune to these weapons - rule-wise, he is only immune to flamers, heavy flamers, incinerators and inferno cannons, along with melta weapons.

"This armoured gauntlet can be fired as a heavy flamer" i.e. "this is a fancy heavy flamer".

Allright, I admit that one was wrong to mention. But the Flamespurt was right.

Sounds like a cool idea
Maybe, if cover is made less common in 6th, the flame rule instead of completley ignoring cover just makes the save 1 worse than normal? Something like that would work pretty nicely I think.

cyberscape7 wrote:Sounds like a cool idea
Maybe, if cover is made less common in 6th, the flame rule instead of completley ignoring cover just makes the save 1 worse than normal? Something like that would work pretty nicely I think.

That would rely on Template weapons being changed, as currently the vast majority of weapons that would be classed as fire weapons already ignore cover due to being template weapons.

Saintspirit wrote:

Amanax wrote:Out of all of this, the only question I can think of is, how would this stop these weapons from hurting the Avatar of Khaine...? You stated that both the Gauntlets of the Forge and Flamespurt works as a heavy flamer. Then, he would be immune... o_O

No, they just have the same profile as a heavy flamer. The thing is that it doesn't state in the avatars rules that he is immune to these weapons - rule-wise, he is only immune to flamers, heavy flamers, incinerators and inferno cannons, along with melta weapons.

Guantlet of The Forge: This ancient and venerated guantlet may be fired as a Heavy Flamer.

But really, if Vulkan He'Stan is within template range of an Avatar, he's probably dead anyway.

Don't forget the Liquifier It's a flamer-template weapons that shoots boiling acid instead of fire. There are a few template weapons that don't really fire anything, however, like the spirit siphon that sucks out life essence.

Appropriate weapons should affect the terrain instead of having their game mechanic tinkered with.

For example, they could have a special rule called... I dunno - "terrain saturation" that says: "the weapon covers the ground in searing volatiles. After working out any wounds caused by the weapon, roll a further d6. If the result is less than or equal to the weapons strength characteristic, then the ground has caught fire. Mark the location with an appropriate marker. For the rest of the game, this area counts as dangerous terrain. Note that weapons with an S value above 6 automatically pass this roll."

It ain't perfect, but it's what I got.

Austragalis wrote:Don't forget the Liquifier It's a flamer-template weapons that shoots boiling acid instead of fire. There are a few template weapons that don't really fire anything, however, like the spirit siphon that sucks out life essence.

Yeah, and those should not have the Fire rule. As I said earlier, it was partially to eliminate the rule problems, but I thought that doesn't had to be the only thing fire would do (would seem like a very small reason to make a special rule). Apart from that flamers are often template weapons, template weapons doesn't have much to do with the fire SR.

Saintspirit wrote:

Austragalis wrote:Don't forget the Liquifier It's a flamer-template weapons that shoots boiling acid instead of fire. There are a few template weapons that don't really fire anything, however, like the spirit siphon that sucks out life essence.

Yeah, and those should not have the Fire rule. As I said earlier, it was partially to eliminate the rule problems, but I thought that doesn't had to be the only thing fire would do (would seem like a very small reason to make a special rule). Apart from that flamers are often template weapons, template weapons doesn't have much to do with the fire SR.

Frankly, I would much rather take a burst from a flamer than a liquifier. Boiling acid just seems much more intimidating than fire. But the reason I mentioned it is because I think covering an area in pools of caustic corrosives has a very similar effect to setting an area on fire.

Fire: Weapons with this rule are commonly, but not always, Template weapons. Fire weapons always ignore cover saves. Even if they are not a Blast/Template weapon, units with "Vulnerable to Blast/Templates" count them as being so. Flame weapons generally have problems cutting through tank armor: They counts as AP - against tanks, but when they hit tanks they automatically inflict a Crew Shaken result in addition to whatever else they deal. When a Flamer is used against cover, roll a d6; on a 1, nothing happens. On a 2-5, the cover counts as dangerous terrain for the remainder of the game. On a 6, the cover is destroyed entirely, all models within are placed roughly where they were but are now flat on the tabletop, and each model that was in cover takes a dangerous terrain test.

Technically, melta/plasma/fusion guns are also a fire type thing, and should get this special rule. I bring this up, because the way the Avatar is written in the Eldar Codex, suggests he should be immune to these weapons, being made of molten material etc.

Of course with a new Eldar codex coming, who knows what will change.

Good idea. I also think that due to the new Grey Knight FAQ ruling on plasma siphon, I'd also like to see a "Plasma" special rule as well as this.

Well, I suppose a Plasma rule makes sense. I'm writing this without knowing the rule on the Plasma Siphon, but it makes sense to me.

Plasma: Plasma weapons are known for their incredible ability to punch through nearly any material; when a 6 is rolled to Wound with a plasma weapon, the weapon ignores cover. In addition, these weapons roll two dice and pick the highest for armor penetration.