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The Title says it all which armies do you think are the most fun/least fun and which armies do you think are the most competitive and those that probably shouldnt see the board. Explain your answers if you could.


This is taken from a 2k 2.5k point army.

Most Competitive top 5:
1. Imperial guard (survive 3 rounds of shooting... good luck)
2. Chaos Space Marines (sorry dual lash princes and 9 oblits can be nasty.)
3. Space Wolves (A lot of shooting)
4. Dark Eldar (If played right these guys are nasty)
5. Tyranids (cant believe the amount of hate these guys get, I have only lost a few games with them)

Least Competitive top 5:
1. Tau (BS 3 and they like to run)
2. Necrons (I like necrons but as a whole they are hard to play)
3. Grey Knights (ya, good luck getting these objectives, one vindicator and you lose 500 points)
4. Eldar (just havent really seen many good builds)
5. Orkz (I wonder what your strategy is, oh wait... you dont have one)

Most Fun top 3:
1. IG (so many customizable models)
2. Orkz (you can create your own models haha)
3. Tau (They are atleast fun to paint)

Least Fun Top 3:
1. Chaos Daemons (just not my cup of tea)
2. Eldar (nothing really going for them in my book)
3. Necrons (it sucks getting phased out)

Now what do you all think?

while in England we don't play upwards of 1750 often I have to argue against your reasoning for some stuff!

Yeah duel lash may be nasty but there are plenty of armies out there with the psychic defences to consistently negate this which means there one build leads them to not being a top tier army.

Grey knights are generally in vehicles and at the 24 inches that vindicators need they are in their element so if you are going to get that one hit (which lets face it you are talking about paladins which aren't massively in the current inquisitor or Crowe meta) and then that vindicator is going to explode. With the current meta they also have transports with extra armour a standard at least 50% of the time.

Blood angels are still a top army and can put out 2 or 3 nasty builds

The most competitive armies out there are 5 fifth edition codex and they all readily vie for the top tables at torunaments
1. Guard
2. Wolves.
3 Blood angels
=4. Grey Knights
=4. Dark Eldar

Nids have some nasty builds but they are a bit of a scissor paper rock army. Put them against GK with Halbards and psybolt ammo and plenty of psycannons and you are struggling. Their lack of grenades also hits them hard.

From my experience

Most competitive

1) SW
2) Guard
3) DE
4) BA
5) GK (preliminary still getting sounded out)

Least competitive

1)Necrons
2)Tau
3)Demons

most fun
tau THAY HAVE SOO MUCH COOL GUNS
guard
orks

most competitive
1 Guard
2 DE
3 GK

I am very surprised how high you all have grey knights. They have a very low model count and are very cookie cutter on those builds. I havent really had trouble with them. I even beat a paladin heavy list in KP with my nids.

Tomb King wrote:I am very surprised how high you all have grey knights. They have a very low model count and are very cookie cutter on those builds. I havent really had trouble with them. I even beat a paladin heavy list in KP with my nids.

Can't understand how anyone can say they are cookie cutter!

There are 4 or 5 competitive builds with grey knights,
Chaos Space marines are cookie cutter, one build and thats that.

What do I think? I think this is very, very subjective. Orks are very good still, and the only Ork players with no strategy are "green tide" guys with 100+ footsloggers. A kult of speed army, biker army, Deffwing, dread bash, shooty-centric or mixed army all have plenty of room for strategy and tactics, in addition to having a solid codex.

Tau and Necrons in least competitive I won't argue. GK I will - yeah, I can shut them down with my demolishers, but they're still damned tough. They've definitely got the edge on Chaos Marines as far as being competitive goes. Eldar are also very competitive in the hands of a skilled player, even if they're fairly limited by good builds.

Your lists are broken OP, more so than some of the armies on them.

I am completely lost. I haven't a clue how you came up with these lists. Your competitive list for example is totally whacked out.

For example, how a codex with 1 valid HQ, and 1 valid Heavy and 1 valid troop is ranked #2 for competitiveness? And how Grey Knights, which are a marine variant with excessively broken units is ranked near dead last of all 40k codex? And tyranids, which haven't placed in years are on the top 5?

Come on dude... I don't know if you have an agenda here or what, but try harder.

Consensus seems to be:

Competitiveness:
#1: Space Wolves
#1: Imperial Guard
#3: Blood Angels
#3: Grey Knights
#5: Dark Eldar
#5: Orkz
#10: Necron
#10: Eldar
#10: Tau
#10: Dark Angels
#10: Black Templar
#10: Sisters

Why the numbering? Well no one can determine which is more blatantly broken; IG or Space Wolves. Typically if you play Marines, you'll say IG. Typically if you play anything else you'll say Marines.

Grey Knights most would argue are below Blood Angels, but not far enough below to put them at a different level. Same could hold true for Dark Eldar too. Orks are below all of these, but again, not far enough below to be considered fighting an uphill battle. The rest of the range, which coincidentally don't have 5th edition codex, are all fighting for last place. Especially if you talk to the people who play those armies.

LA Bunker

5 Space Wolves (Razorbacks/Long Fangs)
5 Blood Angels
3 Tyranids
1 Space Marines (Vulcan)
1 Orks (Ghaz + Battlewagons)
1 Eldar
1 Tau

17 TOTAL
1st place: David Rolstad – Chaos Daemons

Herald of Tzeentch – Chariot, Bolt of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery
Herald of Tzeentch – Chariot, Bolt of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery
Herald of Tzeentch – Chariot, Bolt of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery
Herald of Tzeentch – Chariot, Bolt of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery

6 Fiends of Slaanesh
6 Fiends of Slaanesh
6 Fiends of Slaanesh

5 Plague Bearers
5 Plague Bearers
5 Plague Bearers
5 Bloodletters
5 Bloodletters
6 Horrors of Tzeentch – Changeling w/ Bolt of Tzeentch

6 Screamers of Tzeentch
6 Screamers of Tzeentch
8 Flesh Hounds – Fury of Khorne

Daemon Prince – Nurgle, Wings, Noxious touch, Breath of Chaos, Cloud of Flies, Iron Hide
Daemon Prince – Nurgle, Wings, Noxious touch, Breath of Chaos, Cloud of Flies, Iron Hide
Daemon Prince – Nurgle, Wings, Noxious touch, Breath of Chaos, Cloud of Flies, Iron Hide
2nd place: Space Wolves

Rune Priest – Storm Caller, Tempest’s Wrath, Master of the Runes
Rune Priest – Storm Caller, Murderous Hurricane
Inquisitor Lord – Psychic hood, Mystic x3, Emperor’s Tarot

3 Wolf Guard
Razorback – Lascannon/TL plasma, Hunter-killer missile

3 Wolf Guard
Razorback – Lascannon/TL plasma, Hunter-killer missile

5 Grey Hunters – Flamer
Razorback – Lascannons/TL plasma

5 Grey Hunters – Flamer
Razorback – Lascannons/TL plasma

5 Grey Hunters – Flamer
Razorback – Lascannons/TL plasma

5 Grey Hunters – Flamer
Razorback – Lascannons/TL plasma

5 Grey Hunters – Flamer
Razorback – Lascannons/TL plasma

5 Grey Hunters – Flamer
Razorback – Lascannons/TL plasma

Land Speeder Typhoon
Land Speeder Typhoon
Land Speeder Typhoon

6 Long Fangs – Missile launcher x5
Razorback – Lascannons/TL plasma, Hunter-killer missile

6 Long Fangs – Missile launcher x5
Razorback – Lascannons/TL plasma, Hunter-killer missile

6 Long Fangs – Missile launcher x5
Razorback – Lascannons/TL plasma, Hunter-killer missile
3rd place: Eldar

Eldrad
Yriel

8 Harlequins – Shadowseer, Harlequin’s Kiss x7

5 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent – Shuriken cannon, Spirit stones

5 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent – Shuriken cannon, Spirit stones

10 Wraithguard – Warlock w/ Enhance

5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent – Bright lance, Spirit Stones

5 Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent – Bright lance, Spirit Stones

10 Storm Guardians – Flamer x2(?), Warlock w/ Destructor
Wave Serpent – Scatter laser, Spirit stones

Wraithlord – Eldar missile launcher, Bright lance
Wraithlord – Eldar missile launcher, Bright lance
Falcon – Shuriken cannon, Scatter laser, Holofield, Spirit stones

Showcase Comics (Media, PA)

4 Chaos Space Marines
3 Space Wolves
3 Blood Angels
3 Orks
2 Imperial Guard
1 Space Marines
1 Chaos Daemons
1 Necrons
1 Sisters of Battle
1 Tyranids

20 TOTAL
Full tournament results

1st place: Clark Welch – Chaos Space Marines (56 points)

Daemon Prince – Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission
Daemon Prince – Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission
Greater Daemon

10 Berserkers – Icon, Power fist
Chaos Rhino

5 Noise Marines – Icon, Blastmaster
Chaos Rhino

5 Noise Marines – Icon, Blastmaster
Chaos Rhino

5 Plague Marines – Icon, Meltagun x2
Chaos Rhino

5 Plague Marines – Icon, Meltagun x2
Chaos Rhino

20 Lesser Daemons

3 Obliterators
3 Obliterators
3 Obliterators
2nd place: Ben Mohlie – Space Wolves (56 points)

(List unknown)
3rd place: Stephen Fore – Blood Angels (54 points)

Librarian – Shield of Sanguinius, Blood Lance
Librarian – Shield of Sanguinius, Blood Lance

Corbulo
6 Assault Terminators – TH/SS x3, Lightning claws x3

5 Assault Marines – Meltagun
Razorback – Lascannon/TL plasma, Extra armor

5 Assault Marines – Meltagun
Razorback – Lascannon/TL plasma, Extra armor

5 Assault Marines – Meltagun
Razorback – Lascannon/TL plasma, Extra armor

5 Assault Marines – Meltagun
Razorback – Lascannon/TL plasma, Extra armor

5 Assault Marines – Meltagun
Razorback – Lascannon/TL plasma

5 Assault Marines – Melta bombs
Razorback – Lascannon/TL plasma

Baal Predator – Flamestorm cannon
Baal Predator – Flamestorm cannon

Vindicator – Siege shield
Vindicator – Siege shield

5 Devastators – Missile launcher x4
Razorback – Lascannon/TL plasma

(Info provided by Rippeddragon)

Chicago Battle Bunker

9 Imperial Guard
7 Space Marines (4 Vulcan) (1 Khan) (1 Shrike)
7 Tyranids
6 Orks
6 Space Wolves (4 with Thunderwolf Cavalry)
3 Eldar
3 Chaos Marines
2 Chaos Daemons
2 Blood Angels
1 Black Templar

46 TOTAL
1st place: Cole Markgraf – Imperial Guard (70 points)

Company Command Squad – Astropath, Officer of the Fleet, Meltagun x4
Chimera

Inquisitor Lord – Psychic hood, Mystics x3, Psycannon, Emperor’s Tarot

Callidus Assassin

Psyker Battle Squad – Overseer, Psyker x9
Chimera

Veteran Squad – Plasmagun x3, Lascannon
Chimera

Veteran Squad – Plasmagun x3, Lascannon
Chimera

Veteran Squad – Meltagun x3
Chimera

Veteran Squad – Meltagun x3
Chimera

Platoon Command Squad – Flamer x4
Chimera

Infantry Squad – (no upgrades)
Chimera

Infantry Squad (no upgrades)

Vendetta
Vendetta
Vendetta

Leman Russ Demolisher – Plasma cannon sponsons, Hull lascannon
Leman Russ Battle Tank – Heavy bolter sponsons, Hull heavy bolter
Manticore

(And some battle reports from the winner himself.)
2nd place: Orks (69 points)

Warboss – Bike, Powerklaw, (more?)
Warboss – Bike, Powerklaw, (more?)

10 Nobs – Bikes, Painboy, Powerklaw x(?), (more?)

25 Slugga Boyz – Nob w/ Powerklaw
25 Slugga Boyz – Nob w/ Powerklaw
25 Slugga Boyz – Nob w/ Powerklaw
25 Slugga Boyz – Nob w/ Powerklaw
25 Slugga Boyz – Nob w/ Powerklaw

(?) Deffkoptas

9 Lootas
9 Lootas
9 Lootas
3rd place: Space Wolves (65 points)

Rune Priest – ?
Rune Priest – ?

6 Wolf Guard – Terminator armor x6, Chain fist x6
9 Wolf Guard – Arjac, Terminator armor x1, Chain fist x1, Combi-melta x4, Combi-plasma x4

7 Grey Hunters – Meltagun x1, Combi-melta x1
Drop Pod

7 Grey Hunters – Meltagun x1, Combi-melta x1
Drop Pod

7 Grey Hunters – Meltagun x1, Combi-melta x1
Drop Pod

7 Grey Hunters – Meltagun x1, Combi-melta x1
Drop Pod

7 Grey Hunters – Meltagun x1, Combi-melta x1
Drop Pod

7 Grey Hunters – Meltagun x1, Combi-melta x1
Drop Pod

3 Land Speeders – Heavy bolter x6

6 Long Fangs – Missile launcher x5
6 Long Fangs – Missile launcher x5
6 Long Fangs – Missile launcher x5



At this point level:

IG, CSM, and Daemons took first as the ard boyz champs for 40k last year. Regardless of how many builds they have Dual lash with 9 oblits can defeat most armies without using the rest of there force. I stopped playing with my CSM because they were too easy to win with it I brought the right build. I was a perfect 25-0 in practice games and tournaments with my ard boyz list. I was finally beaten in the Semi's in the third round... by my brothers wedding. I left the tournament in first place and was eliminated for it. Space wolves I agree are a strong #2 behind IG. The reason IG is better is because they can literally wipe you off the board in 3 turns or less in some games with the right build. I base this on the ability of an army to handle another top tier army.

I cant understand why you rank grey knights above dark eldar. Short range weapons against a fast army with high strength weapons and longer range. Which can instant kill most of Grey knight models and easily eliminate the storm raven you would be riding in. Grey knights are nice but not worth taking in a strong competitive environment. Too expensive for what you get and there are too many ways to deal with the good stuff that they can field.

The results of one local tournament do not exactly translate to which army is most competitive. Even Tau and Eldar win some tournaments.

I maintain, your lists are broken.

iproxtaco wrote:I maintain, your lists are broken.

Im confused at your post? The most competitive list is suppose to be broken? That is why i listed it as the most competitive.

No, your lists of which are the most and least competitive are broken.

For Copetitiveness, IG and Space wolves are definatly at the top, no question with that. Blood Angels are great at gettinginto CC and unleashing hell, too. Dark Elder are pretty much a Glass Cannon, they can hit harder than almost (almost) any army, but they die quickly if used imporperly. GK are insane to fight against, they have so many buffing rules that the lack of models really doesnt matter, cause you definatly get what you pay for.

I think Tyranids are still a really compettitive army, though. They have alot of great options and great units in all of thier FO slots. The trick with them is that they are hard to play. I can't remember who told me this, but alot of people want nids to play like Orkz or IG, but they actually play alot more like Eldar, everything has to work together. And when they work together, its a very, very hard to stop army. I've heard many people who play alot of Nids tell me they have beaten competitve IG and SW lists.

However, any army can be competitve in the right hands, and any army can suck in the right hands. Its hard to rate the "competitivness" of any army on these levels. Sure, Tau and Crons have old, old codexes, but still, Monolith Cheese is scary, and so are railguns. So its really difficult to rate the armies this way, because each army has something about them that usually gives it some sort of edge in combat, which actually balances 40k pretty well.

I heard abput the daemons player who won on latcs.

Scipio Africanus wrote:I heard abput the daemons player who won on latcs.

Work on your spelling.

Is OP aware that Grey Knights got a new book?

As far as most competitive I'd put all the 5E books in the competitive range and add in Black Templar, Tau, Sisters and Eldar and put the rest out of competitive range (demons, chaos marines, necrons and orks). As more 5E books get released the number of non-competitive books shrinks since they have generally been doing the ones that need it most first.

I wonder if the problem is that as the OP is from America unless you actually travel to the major tournaments your gaming bubble is very small which I assume is the case for the majority of gamers from the US.

Whereas as England is far smaller its easier to get to tournaments and even if like me you never end up at the top tables you do get to see the same players at the top tables again and again, get to know them and get to see what armies they have.

Well, it always depends on player and list.
In general, the top tier armies are IG, SW, GK, BA followed by DE.
Then I'd place the horde armies, Orks and Nids.
Eldar are good at lower point levels but they don't scale well.
Tau and Necrons are hopeless.

Simo429 wrote:I wonder if the problem is that as the OP is from America unless you actually travel to the major tournaments your gaming bubble is very small which I assume is the case for the majority of gamers from the US.

Whereas as England is far smaller its easier to get to tournaments and even if like me you never end up at the top tables you do get to see the same players at the top tables again and again, get to know them and get to see what armies they have.

Actually bigger than you think. The above results posted from last years ard boyz where nationwide finals to a 3 tournament cycle to find the best player at that point level.


How is it you all are ranking Grey knights above dark eldar. For starters, Grey knights regardless of build are at a disadvantage to dark eldar. Dark eldar have more builds and can better adapt to any given mission, as well as make you look silly when you try to catch them in a KP mission.

Which is wrong from everything I've heard about the Grey Knights competitiveness, but I'll leave game-play and tourney specialists counter that.

Tomb King wrote:

Simo429 wrote:I wonder if the problem is that as the OP is from America unless you actually travel to the major tournaments your gaming bubble is very small which I assume is the case for the majority of gamers from the US.

Whereas as England is far smaller its easier to get to tournaments and even if like me you never end up at the top tables you do get to see the same players at the top tables again and again, get to know them and get to see what armies they have.

Actually bigger than you think. The above results posted from last years ard boyz where nationwide finals to a 3 tournament cycle to find the best player at that point level.


How is it you all are ranking Grey knights above dark eldar. For starters, Grey knights regardless of build are at a disadvantage to dark eldar. Dark eldar have more builds and can better adapt to any given mission, as well as make you look silly when you try to catch them in a KP mission.

GK have several ways to counter DE. Their paper-thin Raiders fall easily from the sky even vs. GK. Halberds provide I6, force weapons deny FnP, DE has almost nothing to counter psychic powers.

Ignoring competativeness questions and focusing on the fun, Orkz are out in the lead in that one by a long way. SAG fun, screaming waaaghh as you call it, unpredictable weirdboy turning 200 point model into a squig on turn 2. Remember this GAME is meant to be fun, WAAC is never that much fun.

p.s. not to mention needing buckets full of dice as you charge a massive mob of boyz and steamroller the luckless foe.

Tomb King wrote:

Simo429 wrote:I wonder if the problem is that as the OP is from America unless you actually travel to the major tournaments your gaming bubble is very small which I assume is the case for the majority of gamers from the US.

Whereas as England is far smaller its easier to get to tournaments and even if like me you never end up at the top tables you do get to see the same players at the top tables again and again, get to know them and get to see what armies they have.

Actually bigger than you think. The above results posted from last years ard boyz where nationwide finals to a 3 tournament cycle to find the best player at that point level.


How is it you all are ranking Grey knights above dark eldar. For starters, Grey knights regardless of build are at a disadvantage to dark eldar. Dark eldar have more builds and can better adapt to any given mission, as well as make you look silly when you try to catch them in a KP mission.

They rely on transports that even a normal grey knight squad will consistently pen and when you add in psyflemen dreads and psybolt razorbacks the are suddenly very vulnerable, they don't get such a bonus for I because lots of people are taking halbards.

Grey Knights are just another marine army, slightly more expensive but then you don't need as many in combat because they are all toting power weapons.

And when you are comparing as to what the best army is you don't compare whether what one does to another, you compare to what they do to the rest of the armies and each other.
So maybe you are right and Dark Eldar eat Grey Knights (which I don't believe for a minute) however Grey Knights are good against other armies that dark eldar can struggle.

Serious question tomb king, you do realize that Grey Knights got a new codex a couple of months ago. There not the crappy army that rolls around in land raiders, that can't deal with mech and is always hopelessly outnumbered. They have a new book and its definitely on par with the other 5E codex's. Your Grey Knights comments only make sense if you didn't know they were recently updated.

In fact, the GK are really powerful. They have ways to deal with every threat (like mech, horde, deathstar).

I don't think there is a clear cut "best" army but there certainly are those who benefit from decreased costs, versatility, and new crazy rules. Not to mention multiple good builds.

Top Tier:

Guard-lots of tanks and special weapons crammed into a solid force. Blobs can compete as well.

SW-take everything good from Space Marines, make it better and cheaper, then add point for point the best psyker in the game and a broken cavalry unit...yeah.

BA- fast Marine tanks shouldn't exist. Add in a 50 point bubble of FNP and Furious Charge and get a great list. Don't forget AV 13 spam.

GK-Fortitude alone changes how people have to play against them. There's no reason it should be 5 points and LD 10. Psycannon spam is great. Purifiers wreck hordes even with 5 man squads. Inquisitorial henchman and Psyfleman are also sick.

DE- speed and mass lance/poisoned weapons are amazing. They take finesse to use though.

Mid Tier:

Space Marines- they are good and can win, and do win. Sadly, it's mostly Vulcan based. SS TH are great and they are a very balanced codex.

CSM- they have good things but are increasingly becoming overcosted as each new dex crams more and more in. Competitive CSM are basically clone lists.

Nids- this is a codex that requires veteran players. Nids have what it takes but face lots of hard counters (Jaws, Poison). They have been hit hard by new dexes and they aren't even that old.

Orks- not a bad army. They lack range and are going to have a tough time with Purifiers. Still, there are plenty of good units.

Bottom Tier:

Eldar-overcosted and lack punch. Mechdar can win, but it won't win big. They rely on lots going right and playing perfect to win in the context of the mission.

Daemons- I love Daemons and think they are still usable. GK dealt a big blow to those who want to take them to a tourney (as you will run into GK) and therefore fall to tier 3.

Tau- huge amount of issues. Overcosted, underpowered, and have 0 assault units.

Necrons- an army that relies on a gimmick. Hope that you are playing 2K, take 3 Liths, Deceiver, 20 Warriors, Res Destroyer Lord, and either Wraiths or Destroyers. That's all they've got.

Witch Hunters- just overcosted and bad. They are entirely close ranged and are bad once charged. Lots of out of date rules.

Most competitive 3, in no particular order
Guard,, space Wolves, Dark Eldar

Least competitive 3, in no particular order
Tau, Necrons, Witch Huners

Most Fun 3, in no particular order
IG, Orks, Dark Eldar

Least Fun Top 3:
Whiny (chaos) Space Marines, Tau, Necrons

Maybe we could rate them according to what they do best with any given deployment.

D3+2 objective (top 3 is Imperial Guard, Nids, Space Wolves)

Capture and Hold (Top 3, Dark Eldar, IG, CSM/codex marines)

Kill Points (Top 3, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Space Wolves)