Building a ChaosMarine List, Help would be appreciated

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**Amanax**

So, My fiance and I recently dropped a couple hundred bucks on the beginnings of her chaos marine army. She's doing a black Legion theme army, with Abaddon at it's head, and so we bought accordingly. However, I'm a bit stuck on what we should do with the list from here. Here is what we got -
HQs -
Abaddon

Troops -
14 Plague Marines (Including the two champs)

Elites -
5 Terminators

Other -
2 Rhinos
1 Land Raider

All in all, around 1100 - 1300 points if I recall (after upgrades). However, I know she is going to need more troop choices... I'm thinking Lesser Daemons myself. She wants to add in a Daemon Prince (possibly a Slaanesh one to Lash things, but her mind isn't made up on it) and she loves defilers. I have heard Defilers and Oblitz are pretty interchangeable, though Oblitz are more widely used in competitive play due to their synergy with Lash of Submission.

Is there anything else over all though? What would be a decent addition to the army to fill things out?

**wuestenfux**

Abaddon is overpiced, better go for 2 winged DPs.
Moreover, I'd opt for Obliterators, the more the better. I'd include 6 giving you the option to group them into 2x3 or 3x2.

**Amanax**

Yeah, I know Abaddon is not the best choice, and that optimal decisions will include... Well just about any other HQ choice it seems >_<

But she chose her Black Legion for Abaddon... So having her give him up just for that...

Alright, just looked at the prices, and even with the price changes it seems that you get more bang for your buck with the obliterators, so we will most likely be going with them.

What about other troop choices? We are done with plague marines (Money made that decision given that they are now $45 for a pack of seven "resin" models...) What other acceptable troop choices are there right now for Chaos?

On that note... What is with the hate for noise marines?
I have heard the argument that it's because "They are essentially more expensive version of base marines" but I would think the extra standing shot, the lack of rapid fire, the ability to take a S8 AP3 small blast weapon, the built in I5, the S5 AP3 template weapon (especially when combined with Lash), etc etc... They have so many uses, I don't get the hate o_O Care to fill me in?

**smeg**

For other troops try sum thousand sons with doombolt on the aspiring sorcerer. Other marine players hate them and a force weapon scars of characters. If you want 2 go with Abaddon stik him in a land raider with 4 terminators so you can get him up there fast

**wuestenfux**

In view of troops, PM are a decent unit with 2 special weapons of the same time. Stick them into a Rhino.
Normal CSM units w/ IoGC are also a viable option.
NM are my favorite choice. They can get a doom siren, one of the best weapons in the game.
In combination with a lash Prince, a NM unit in a Rhino can be a deadly combo. The Prince misleads an enemy unit just in front of the Rhino and the doom siren just does the rest.

**Fire_for_effect**

From my experience Khorne Berserkers have always rocked. (Plus they are quite affordable). I'd recommend putting Abaddon in the raider with a bunch of them and they will pretty much own in CC.

**logg_frogg**

What are you looking to do with the army? Competetive tournament play? Fun Play? Display only?

There are lots of very fun units to play but only very select models are worthy of competetive play

**Vryce**

Personally, I like Abbadon. He's a beast in CC, can't be insta-killed, has a STR 8 daemon weapon & gets to re-roll failed wounds (not that it needs it often, but it's there..). Kharn is the only other special char that can even hold a candle to Abbadon. And Lash Princes are.. well they're Lash Princes. Our best HQ (DP) w/ our best psychic power (lash).

As for troops choices, just stay away from summoned daemons. Our other troops choices - even vanilla CSM - are far better. Since the Chaos Daemons codex came out, our daemons lost the fun stuff. Sure they can assault after DS, but that's really their only redeeming quality.

The hate for NM's comes from the fact that once you give the squad sonic blasters & a blast master, it's our most expensive troop selection in the codex - and $ wise btw, you get ONE sonic blaster in the box. All the others you have to buy from GW for like $30 for five sonic blasters & a blastmaster. Equipped so, they're 2 pts more per model than TS's (38 pts more for the model w/ the blastmaster) & don't get AP3 or 4++. You can lay down lots of fire w/ them, but personally for the points invested in that unit, I'd really rather have the TS's. Other than sonic weaponry, the only thing that really sets them apart from vanilla CSM is the I5. All the other cult troops have stuff that really sets them apart & are far more worth the prices than NM's. However, to be fair, most people don't really like TS's & I really do, so perhaps its really just a matter of taste. Try them out, see if she likes them, but to me their cost is un-justifiable. Looks like you already have the PM's covered, two squads of 7 is really all you'll need unless you're running a themed list.

You CAN'T go wrong w/ Berzekers. Rarely do you see a CSM list w/o @ least one unit of them & there's a reason for this - they are in the top 5 of best assault units in the game. A squad of 10 will put out 40 attacks on the charge, w/ I5 & STR 5. They're also WS 5, so against most enemies (read: other SM/CSM and their equivalents) they go first, hit on 3's & wound on 3's (during the 1st round of combat). There's really not much they can't handle & I never go to the table w/o 2 squads of them. I personally stick them in Rhino's, other folks never put them in anything but LR's, but LR's are priority targets & believe it or not are much easier to destroy/wreck/otherwise incapacitate than you might think.

Obliterators are the best heavy weapon teams in the game. They aren't cheap, but you get what you pay for. They've got a weapon for any tactical situation & a lash prince can really increase their effectiveness. Wuestenfux suggested running 6 & I would agree, for exactly the reason he stated. Tho I've discovered that sometimes they just don't throw out enough shots @ range in units of 2. I've never ran Defilers, tho I think they look awsome & it seems like most people either love them or hate them. I can see both sides - on the positive side side, they have a battle cannon & when equipped w/ all DCCW can throw down more attacks in CC than other walkers. On the negative side, it's hard to get them into CC as they're still just an AV12 walker & easily put out of commision. I've heard it been said that they actually suck in CC due to WS 3, but they're still hitting most things on 4's anyway, so I don't really see the problem. I'd probably run them if I could justify throwing down the money on them (and if I wasn't also building GK for 40k & Tomb Kings & Dark Elves for WHF. Stupid hobby, lol).

Other changes/additions I would make would probably be a squad of Chosen w/ special weapon spam. I prefer meltaguns for outflank tank hunting, but a squad w/ plasma guns would ruin someone's day too. Don't make them assault units, their cost goes up quick, nearing the cost of our terminators & don't perform as well. Keep them cheap - 5 in a Rhino w/ either melta's or plasma's. If you run an icon on them, Chaos Glory would be the only one I would bother with. I personally don't like our terminators, there's just nothing terribly impressive about them. Their weapon options suck & really the best use there is for them is small squads of 3-4 w/ combi-melta's deep striking in & blowing up a couple tanks before they die & they're really too expensive for that. If we had cult terminators it would be a totally different story, but we don't & until we do, I don't bother running any. Though 4 of them w/ an MoT w/ Abbadon in the LR can do some damage, but that whole kit & kaboodle starts hitting the 600+ pt range, over a 1/4 of your 2k pts - something to think about.

~Vryce

**Amanax**

Vryce wrote:Personally, I like Abbadon. He's a beast in CC, can't be insta-killed, has a STR 8 daemon weapon & gets to re-roll failed wounds (not that it needs it often, but it's there..). Kharn is the only other special char that can even hold a candle to Abbadon. And Lash Princes are.. well they're Lash Princes. Our best HQ (DP) w/ our best psychic power (lash).

That's exactly what we were thinking! Glad to see my Fiance and I aren't completely crazy.

As for troops choices, just stay away from summoned daemons. Our other troops choices - even vanilla CSM - are far better. Since the Chaos Daemons codex came out, our daemons lost the fun stuff. Sure they can assault after DS, but that's really their only redeeming quality.

Really? I was always lead to believe that summoned daemons were actually fairly standard as late game objective holders, and occasionally used for surprise assault units. Was I just misinformed, or is

that only used in certain lists?
The hate for NM's comes from the fact that once you give the squad sonic blasters & a blast master, it's our most expensive troop selection in the codex - and $ wise btw, you get ONE sonic blaster in the box. All the others you have to buy from GW for like $30 for five sonic blasters & a blastmaster. Equipped so, they're 2 pts more per model than TS's (38 pts more for the model w/ the blastmaster) & don't get AP3 or 4++. You can lay down lots of fire w/ them, but personally for the points invested in that unit, I'd really rather have the TS's. Other than sonic weaponry, the only thing that really sets them apart from vanilla CSM is the I5. All the other cult troops have stuff that really sets them apart & are far more worth the prices than NM's. However, to be fair, most people don't really like TS's & I really do, so perhaps its really just a matter of taste. Try them out, see if she likes them, but to me their cost is un-justifiable. Looks like you already have the PM's covered, two squads of 7 is really all you'll need unless you're running a themed list.

Yeah, the physical cost was one of the most determining factors as to why we got the two squads of plague marines first. I think we've come to the conclusion that if she does go with noise marines,

that we will be doing a lot of converting to make them, instead of buying the extra weapon packs.
You CAN'T go wrong w/ Berzekers. Rarely do you see a CSM list w/o @ least one unit of them & there's a reason for this - they are in the top 5 of best assault units in the game. A squad of 10 will put out 40 attacks on the charge, w/ I5 & STR 5. They're also WS 5, so against most enemies (read: other SM/CSM and their equivalents) they go first, hit on 3's & wound on 3's (during the 1st round of combat). There's really not much they can't handle & I never go to the table w/o 2 squads of them. I personally stick them in Rhino's, other folks never put them in anything but LR's, but LR's are priority targets & believe it or not are much easier to destroy/wreck/otherwise incapacitate than you might think.

Zerkers are something her and I never quite understood. At first, we loved them. They looked amazing. We proxied them in a few games, and every single time, they have failed utterly at destroying anything. Granted, one of those tests was against a Lashwhip loving Nid player, but most of the tests were against other marine lists. I'm just no longer sold on the guys, despite what everyone says.

Obliterators are the best heavy weapon teams in the game. They aren't cheap, but you get what you pay for. They've got a weapon for any tactical situation & a lash prince can really increase their effectiveness. Wuestenfux suggested running 6 & I would agree, for exactly the reason he stated. Tho I've discovered that sometimes they just don't throw out enough shots @ range in units of 2. I've never ran Defilers, tho I think they look awsome & it seems like most people either love them or hate them. I can see both sides - on the positive side side, they have a battle cannon & when equipped w/ all DCCW can throw down more attacks in CC than other walkers. On the negative side, it's hard to get them into CC as they're still just an AV12 walker & easily put out of commision. I've heard it been said that they actually suck in CC due to WS 3, but they're still hitting most things on 4's anyway, so I don't really see the problem. I'd probably run them if I could justify throwing down the money on them (and if I wasn't also building GK for 40k & Tomb Kings & Dark Elves for WHF. Stupid hobby, lol).

Thank you! I hear a lot of complaining from people about WS 3 on a few models in the army, and I've never really cared. Yeah, the higher weapon skill is nice, but it's not really a game breaker unless yous is low AND theirs is high. I mean, unless your WS3 unit is attacking I think it's a WS6 model, you'll still only need 5s. The defiler, I think has gotten a lot of hate for exactly the same reason WS3 has gotten the hate. Completely unjustified, as even though the weakness of a WS3 mostly lies in being hit on 3s, Defilers make up for that by being a walker, and most melee attacks do nothing.

Other changes/additions I would make would probably be a squad of Chosen w/ special weapon spam. I prefer meltaguns for outflank tank hunting, but a squad w/ plasma guns would ruin someone's day too. Don't make them assault units, their cost goes up quick, nearing the cost of our terminators & don't perform as well. Keep them cheap - 5 in a Rhino w/ either melta's or plasma's. If you run an icon on them, Chaos Glory would be the only one I would bother with. I personally don't like our terminators, there's just nothing terribly impressive about them. Their weapon options suck & really the best use there is for them is small squads of 3-4 w/ combi-melta's deep striking in & blowing up a couple tanks before they die & they're really too expensive for that. If we had cult terminators it would be a totally different story, but we don't & until we do, I don't bother running any. Though 4 of them w/ an MoT w/ Abbadon in the LR can do some damage, but that whole kit & kaboodle starts hitting the 600+ pt range, over a 1/4 of your 2k pts - something to think about.

We've discussed chosen. I think it's the way we'll probably end up going if we have anymore points we need to fill to give the list a bit more anti tank punch. But first, it seems we'll probably be going with two squads of noise marines, and still in the air on Defilers vs Obliterators (after testing the battlecannon, things got heavy swayed towards the defiler. Funny how a single good game can do that )

~Vryce

Thanks all for the help! Any other suggestions or ideas would be wonderful.

**ImRightBehindYou**

No thousand sons. Yuk. Sorry. Either run double melta fist chaos squads or go berzerkers. Only viable troops in that book barring double plasma plagues.

**Vryce**

ImRightBehindYou wrote:No thousand sons. Yuk. Sorry. Either run double melta fist chaos squads or go berzerkers. Only viable troops in that book barring double plasma plagues.

That... just might be the most singly slowed statement I've ever seen about CSM troop choices. They're ALL good in their own arena - even NM's which I just thoroughly trashed (mainly for cost reasons) still have a place w/ the right list around them. If you're going to make statements like that, you would do well to @ least explain the reasons why you feel that way. This post just makes you look like a hater...

Amanax, I would encourage you not to give up on Berzerkers just yet. They really are a great unit & you wont find a better assault unit in any codex except for Tyranids or Blood Angels (Genestealers & Death Company respectively). However, like I mentioned in my 1st post, different strokes for different folks, so they just might not be for you/your wife. But I do suggest giving them a couple more tries, sometimes it takes a couple games to figure out how to deploy & use them. When you tell your opponent you have them, they're generally a priority target, so will start taking fire early.

Oh, and your 'To Hit' roll doesn't go above 4+ until your opponents WS is double +1 what yours is. So if you are WS 3, you'll need 4+ to hit anything up to WS 7.

Just two more of my pennies..

~Vryce

**Priesmal**

Using Abbadon is fine, at like 2000 pts. Otherwise I personally think I get better bang out of my points elsewhere. DPs in particular and more models with the points saved.

The PMs feel pretty good as squads of seven. As said already, use double plasma or double melta. If you use the plague champ, give him a pf; he' already I3, I1 isnt much slower considering most armies are I4 these days. I run with two squads also. One claims the back objective and the other goes up with a squad of berzerkers. The berzerkers push a unit off an objective and the PMs hold it.

Speaking of berzerkers... How were you running you berzerkers that they failed? Did you get the charge? While they are not the end-all-be-al in assault, furious charge or no, they work best if you assault with ANY other unit. I already said one of my squads roll up with PMs. I have another squad that tag-teams with a DP (MoN, warptime and wings)

Termies are... trickier than you would think. At three strong with ONLY combi-meltas they make awesome DSing tank hunters. Maybe add a chain fist for good measure. But there is almost no point to just having a land raider unless it is to transport them. At five strong you can kit them out to be cc monsters (run with berzerkers...) DO NOT USE A REAPER. At 20 pts (?) they do not do nearly enough.

More troops is a pretty good idea; I try to aim at one slot per 500 pts.
But not noise marines. Yes they are expensive in both points and $$ as stated above. The other issue I have with them is that they are confused. Are the cc? Are they Shooty? What? their I5 implies they should be rocking out in cc. But their upgrades are all about ranged. And you tend to get stuck in cc and cannot shoot OR you avoid cc to keep shooting. Either way you are hemmoraging points.

I would recommend trying out the things she wants to do. Not only are they sound (DPs rock!) but if she likes them she'll want to use them. And if you already have the LR out on the field, the Defilers will be that much more effective. Most armies will be wasting a lot of firepower to stop the LR and by time they realize they should have been shooting the defilers, the defilers will have torn into a couple units.

**Amanax**

The timing of your post is comical! Especially given that you lead it with suggesting a different HQ than Abaddon at lower points. We were just talking to each other about how we should model that fifth terminator that came in the box to be a terminator lord... Figuring at 140-150 points, a mark of khorne terminator lord with dual lightning claws would be a good low point replacement for The Despoiler.

As for the zerkers, we actually tried them a few ways. At first we were kitting them to the teeth (3x plasma pistols, champion, power fist, full ten man squads in rhinos). Later we started dropping the plasma pistols, feeling they didn't justify their 45 points for the three shots before the charge. Eventually, we even started downgrading the power fist with the power weapon, since they were already S5 on the charge. With those thoughts, we started to proxy in Fabius Bile... These actually netted the best results. Paying the 24 points per model, giving them S6 on the charge, one of them with a power weapon, and a ton of attacks. However, it was getting a little expensive for the squad to do it, and even still they didn't survive long. We tried using land raiders to deliver them, we tried sending Kharn with them... I can't think of anything we haven't tried to make them worthwhile.
The armies they were tested against were; Jetbike Eldar, Wraithwall Eldar, Shooting Templar, Helbrecht Deathstar Templar, Swarming Tyranid, Nidzilla, Deepstriking Nid, and Necron Warrior swarm. Like I said previously, perhaps it was the match up for them, as almost everything they went up against, they only did alright against. They completely failed against the Nids (especially once they encountered Lash Whips).

Yeah, the Land Raider was intended to haul Abaddon / Terminator Lord and the four other terminators, khorne marked with dual lightning claws.

We were going to kit them for shooting. Me being an Eldar player, I know not to let higher than normal initiative trick me into thinking that alone makes a melee unit

True about the Land Raider pulling fire from the Defilers. Hadn't thought of it that way. Though, how long that will last once those battle cannons start tearing open their infantry! And then Abaddon will enjoy their front ranks. Haha!

The last time we were talking, this is what it looks like her 2K army was going to look -
HQ - 275
Abaddon

Troops - 992
7x Plague Marines
- 2x Plasma gun
- Champion
- - Power Fist
- Dedicated Rhino w/ Combi Melta

7x Plague Marines
- 2x Plasma gun
- Champion
- - Power Fist
- Dedicated Rhino w/ Combi Melta

6x Noise Marines
- 5x Sonic Blasters
- Blast Master
- Dedicated Rhino

6x Noise Marines
- 5x Sonic Blasters
- Blast Master
- Dedicated Rhino

Elites - 430
4x Terminators
- Khorne
- 4x Dual Lightning Claws
- Dedicated Land Raider w/ Daemon Possession

Heavy Support - 300
Defiler
Defiler

Total = 1997

**ZephyrRey**

May I make a suggestion for the noise marines? I am converting some myself right now for my Night Lords army (the fluff has a lot of screaming, I figured it fits) Anyway.

you know all the daemon head things you get with all the tank sprues? Get a basic box of chaos marines, chop the tips off the bolters, and put the smallest of the heads (or larger if you care) on instead. It looks nice, and is obviously different from the bolters that your PMs have. for the doom siren I chopped off the two orbs on a backpack and installed the same heads. Blastmaster, just take a random heavy weapon from the same chaos marine box, chop off its end and replace with one of the larger daemon heads. Easy peasy.

In response to the actual list, I really like where it is going, although I would drop Daemonic Possession for EA, and give meltabombs to some random unit. DP is nice and all, but the reduction of BS takes away from it for me.

Also, as far as I'm aware, Fabius Bile can only affect the basic Chaos Space Marine troops, not the god-dedicated ones.

**Amanax**

ZephyrRey wrote:May I make a suggestion for the noise marines? I am converting some myself right now for my Night Lords army (the fluff has a lot of screaming, I figured it fits) Anyway.

you know all the daemon head things you get with all the tank sprues? Get a basic box of chaos marines, chop the tips off the bolters, and put the smallest of the heads (or larger if you care) on instead. It looks nice, and is obviously different from the bolters that your PMs have. for the doom siren I chopped off the two orbs on a backpack and installed the same heads. Blastmaster, just take a random heavy weapon from the same chaos marine box, chop off its end and replace with one of the larger daemon heads. Easy peasy.

In response to the actual list, I really like where it is going, although I would drop Daemonic Possession for EA, and give meltabombs to some random unit. DP is nice and all, but the reduction of BS takes away from it for me.

Also, as far as I'm aware, Fabius Bile can only affect the basic Chaos Space Marine troops, not the god-dedicated ones.

That was basically what we were planning on doing! I'm glad to hear that it works

Do you have to greenstuff any gaps, or do they fit together fairly well?

As for DP reducing BS, I figured with the lascannons being TL'ed that it wouldn't hurt it as much. Again, I am looking at this as more of an Eldar perspective and how our Wave serpents work (BS 3 with TL'ed weapons) and they perform quite admirably.

Melta bombs would be a good idea... I could drop the noise marine squads down to five each, upgrade to a champion in each squad, that would allow for 20 additional points to be thrown around. Exactly enough to throw meltas on each troop choice. Would give each squad just that extra threat against mechs, if nothing else. That's probably what we'll end up doing

Thanks a ton!

**Naravus**

I took the liberty of writing you up a list which uses abaddon.

Abaddon the Despoiler

Possessed x20 (Mark of Tzeentch)

Plague Marines (Melta x2)
Plague Marines (Melta x2)
Plague Marines (Plasma x2)
Plague Marines (Plasma x2)

Obliterators x2
Obliterators x2
Obliterators x2

Total Roster: 1845

Abaddon can deploy with the 20man blob or with a squad of 2 deepstriking oblits.

20man Blob marches up in front of the plague marines, giving them cover against AP 3 stuff.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amanax wrote:
HQ - 275
Abaddon

Troops - 992
7x Plague Marines
- 2x Plasma gun
- Champion
- - Power Fist
- Dedicated Rhino w/ Combi Melta

7x Plague Marines
- 2x Plasma gun
- Champion
- - Power Fist
- Dedicated Rhino w/ Combi Melta

6x Noise Marines
- 5x Sonic Blasters
- Blast Master
- Dedicated Rhino

6x Noise Marines
- 5x Sonic Blasters
- Blast Master
- Dedicated Rhino

Elites - 430
4x Terminators
- Khorne
- 4x Dual Lightning Claws
- Dedicated Land Raider w/ Daemon Possession

Heavy Support - 300
Defiler
Defiler

Total = 1997

I like the list...but thought I'd analyze it for you...

HQ: Fine as you are set on Abaddon.

Elites: Chaos Termies are rather overpriced and lack survivability. The 4man squad is meh at best and people will view it as a threat so I don't recommend rushing it into melta range so their land raider dies. It would be best used as a counter assault unit. Shield your LR with the rhinos and use the lascannons to pop tanks to the best of your ability.

Troops: All good. The noise marines will put out a lot of shots with that loadout. I'd hop em out of their transport before you decide to shoot em though....otherwise you might as well just take two Sonic Blasters. Think GKs with two psycannons and psybolt ammo.

I've never liked Defilers as they are CC oriented but have an ordnance weapon. As a side note, remember you can only fire the Battlecannon or the other weapons.

**ZephyrRey**

they fit together almost perfectly, granted you file a tidbit.

**Hargus56**

Buy a battle force, use greenstuff/zombie heads/guitar strings for tubes to make plague marines. Use possessed bits for power fist action. Buy 2 more rhinos. This gives you:

2 Plague Marine units in Rhinos
1 Berzerker unit in Rhino

So your core is taken care of. Next you need Obliterators, buy a box of terminators and maybe the chaos mutations spure, then trade or buy IG and other heavy weapon bitz on ebay or at a local bazaar and convert terminators to obliterators.

Now you have 5 oblits to make 2 units of 3 and 2 or 3 units of 2, 2 and 1.

HQ is what you need you really can't go wrong with a deamon prince or 2, or Kharn or a lash sorceror, Abaddon mix and match for your budget or what you are looking for. Whole thing will run you about $300 at a GW or cheaper if you go with online vendors. Also a pack of melta guns would be cool as you want your plague marine to have 2 in each unit.