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Hey all - probably a simple answer.

If you have two ranks, the front rank can fight and the second rank can do one supporting attack.
If you use spears, you can fight in two ranks.
If you are in a horde, you can fight in three ranks.

Question:

If I am in two ranks with one attack per model - spears are useless right? I already get one supporting attack.

If I am in three ranks (not horde) with spears, do I get two ranks fighting then a extra rank supporting?

If I am in horde, with spears - does that mean I get four ranks of fighting?

Cheers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I've answered my own question (thumbing through the rule book) - But I'm keen to hear your thoughts.

Spears - would get to fight from first two ranks. If in horde, the third rank could support with one attack - the fourth rank would do nothing.

There is no benefit in having spears, if you are a one attack per model unit - halberds are the way to go.

I was specifically looking at Men At Arms - there is no benefit to having spears. Right?

Spears allow you to fight with one more rank than normal.

You normally fight with 2 ranks, you may fight with 3 if you are using spears. Horded you may fight with 4 ranks.

High Elves using spears and horded may fight with 5 ranks.

Every rank after the first may only use 1 attack regardless of what is on their character profile. This goes for Infantry, Monstrous infantry fight with 3 attacks I believe (no BRB handy).

+1 for Lehnsherr

This is why I love my HE when horded. a 50 block of spears running into something is *can* be pretty gross. Still Str 3, so not that powerful, but whatever...still 51 attacks.

As for spears vs. halberds... I like halberds, a lot. You can't go wrong with +1 str.

Don't the M@A already have halberds? According to the GW site they are equipped with a pole arm, which counts as a halberd. If it is an upgrade, I don't know if I would take it. I figure M@A to more of a bunker unit for damsels. Spend more points on Knights. If I am right and they do come with them already, then there you go... problem solved.

men at arms can have spears or halberd for no extra cost.

So if I have halberd I get 2 ranks with +1 str. Then if I horde I get 2 at +1 and 1 at normal str?


If I spear I get 3 ranks, or 4 if I horde?

I will then do the maths once we clear this up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From the rule book:

Supporting Attack - Models in the second rank may make one attack, regardless of any bonus attacks or his stats.

Horde - When fighting in ranks of 10 (or more) models can do a supporting attack from the third rank, not just the second.

Halberd - Two handed, 1+ Strength

Spear - Fight in extra rank but not on the turn you charge.

Martial Prowess (HE) - May fight in one extra rank than normal. This means they can fight in three ranks, or two on a charge.

So this means to me, you cannot fight from the fourth rank in horde mode with spears. HE would not get a supporting attack from the fourth rank, nor would any one else

--------------------------------------------

I think that is pretty reasonable - how do you justify some one that is that far back getting an attack?

As to halberds, anyone who attacks with them gets the +1 strength.

As to spears, and specifically HE, they can get up to 5 ranks of spears to attacks.

1111111111--- Front rank, normal attacks.
2222222222--- Second rank, supporting attack.
3333333333--- Third rank, Horde supporting attack.
4444444444-- Fourth Rank, Normal Spear supporting attack
5555555555--- Fifth Rank, HE Spear special rule supporting attack

As to why you don't think you can get those two extra ranks worth of attacks with the spears, I have no idea. The Fight in Extra Ranks rule for spears is quite clear you fight with an additional rank's worth of supporting attacks (when not charging).

As to the HE special rule, remember to check the FAQ: Page 49 – Spearmen, Martial Prowess
Ignore the last sentence.

I do not have the book for the exact wording on the original rule, but make you you take the FAQ into consideration.

Plus a single core can take a banner under 25pts. So they can be flaming attacks to boot.

As Daval pointed out, the rules now state "may fight in one more rank then normal."

The use of the ranks in the wording of "Fight in extra ranks" talks about normal circumstances. The first sentence simply states that supporting attacks can be made by an extra rank (no mention here of 2nd or 3rd rank attacks). Then it states that normally a unit may make supporting attacks with 2 ranks. That means first, 2nd and 3rd. Spears give fight with extra rank, Horde gives fight with extra rank and Martial Prowress gives fight with extra rank. These all go beyond "normal". All you simply need to do is consult the first sentence. If armed with spears you may fight with an additional rank. If horded you may fight with an additional rank. If you have MP you may fight with an additional rank.

Normally you attack with 2 ranks. First rank full attack, 2nd supporting. If you are horded you may fight with the 3rd rank. If you are armed with spears you get an additional rank to what you are normally allowed (as per the first sentence in "Fight in extra ranks"). That would make 4 ranks worth of attacks. Finally, Martial Prowress allows High Elves to fight with spears with one more rank than normal. Horde makes 3, spears make 4, MP gives the 5th. This all assumes you did not charge, and may also only be used to attack the front. If your unit is flanked, then you may not use supporting attacks.

To get even trickier, a HE Horde unit that charges with spears can actually fight with 4 ranks. The extra ranks granted by spears do not count on the turn you charge, but Horde attacks, and MP are not denied by a charge. Non HE units that are horded with spears may fight in 3 ranks on the charge (front rank, supporting attack from 2nd rank, horde bonus).

As far as Halberds and supporting attacks are concerned, you would still get the bonus S to the supporting attacks. This applies to ALL ranks. Each rank that can attack uses a halberd, and the rules for halberds state that you get +1 S on the attack.

TL : DR version.... Read Daval's post. He said everything I did.