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So it seems that the FAQ has cleared this up a bit for deep strikers, but what about for Outflanking units, or units in Normal reserves?




Situation #1
Reserve unit: Genestealers
Coteaz's Unit: Dudes with flamers

The genestealers outflank and are attempting to move as close as possible to coteaz's unit in order to assault it.


Where and how are the genestealers placed for the Shooting attack?
Is it when the Genestealers first hit the 12" bubble and would thus be out of range of the Flamers?
Do the genestealers need to be in coherency as it is not the end of their move yet?
What are the rules for placing models on the table that have partially but not totally completed their move?
Do the genestealers have to declare a final location, or can they wain until after they see how many casualties they take before deciding where to go?


=========================


Situation #2.
Reserve unit: Any bike unit
Coteaz's unit: anything, it does not matter.

The unit opts to Turbo-boost onto the table. They start their move outside of Coteaz'z bubble. They have moved 6" by the time their move reaches coteaz's bubble.

Do they get a cover save for Tubo-Boosting?
Can they chose to move normally after casualties are taken?

All of the above questions about placement and spacing apply as well.


==========================


Situation #3
Reserve Unit: Any Fast Skimmer
Coteaz's unit: Melta guns and Multi-meltas

The skimmer elects to move Flat Out. It has moved 6" before entering Coteaz's zone.

Does it get a cover save for moving flat out?
Can a skimmer ever get a cover save against this attack (even if it moved its full distance)?
How far away is the Skimmer? Are Multi-Meltas within Half Range?
The skimmer will end its move with 6" or coteaz. Are the Meltaguns within Half Range?
What if the skimmer is Immobilized? Is it wrecked even though it has only moved 6"? Are the passengers removed from the table as well?
What if the Skimmer is Stunned? Where does it end its move? Does it get a 4+ save in the GK turn?


=======================



In the end, is the GK FAQ even a playable option? Right now, I really do not see how it could work.

situation 1: If the genestealers outflanked and the table edge they arrive on is within 12" of coteaz then they would be attacked at the table edge. If they are outside of range of flamer template then the flamers miss. If the genestealers outflanked and arrived on the table edge more than 12" from coteaz then coteaz and unit do not get an attack. if the genestealers arrived on the table edge 13" from coteaz, move up 6" coteaz and unit do not get to fire, as they did not arrive from reserves within 12". They arrived 13" away and then moved up.

situation 2: coteaz ability does not work. The bikes cannot be shot at as they did not arrive within 12" from reserves.

situation 3: if the skimmer entered reserves within 12" of coteaz then coteaz and unit may fire at the unit. The model is placed where it enters at within 12" from coteaz, they fire at the model, then the model can continue moving if its able. The skimmer is as far away as it stopped to be fired at. The skimmer technically has moved 0" unless it has a rule stating "counts as moving whatever speed when it comes on from reserves.

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Coteaz and his unit may fire at a unit arrives from reserve within 12" The faq just says to stop the unit if it is within 12" of coteaz to resolve firing.

A unit can enter from reserves outside of coteaz 12" bubble, fly up to him 1" away if it is allowed to per its rules and coteaz and unit will not get to fire at the unit because it did not arrive from reserves within 12" of coteaz.

it is still a useful ability, it is just not as abusable by some -I- players taking a poorly written rule and making it so a unit can fire at anything that comes within 12" of it regardless of how far away it arrived from reserves.

More classic GW fail, imo. I suppose the right thing to do is resolve the shots "as is" and units attempting to Turbo Boost or Flat-out onto the table do not get the benefit since they have not moved the distance required to claim the cover saves granted from Turbo Boosting or Flat-out'ing.

Don't even know where to begin with the Genestealer example.

@Blaktoof

So what you are saving is that Coteaz has to be within 12" of the board edge to make his attack against outflanking/normal reserves.

In that case where are the models placed? Are they on the board edge? Would a Vehicle have to be all the way on the table first?




I Have always though that "Arriving from reserves" was the entire move onto the table and not just the first step the model makes onto the table.

Since you don't place your models on the table before moving them when arriving from Reserve, the point at which they are placed on the table is the end of their movement on.

The bit about completing your movement after resolving the attack does seem to be suggesting that GW want us to place the models on the board edge, resolve the attack, and then continue moving, though.

Honestly, I am just going to play it that the Models finish moving and then Coteaz shoots, as any other way is just outside of the rules. I was just wondering if there was some Crazy RAW thing that I was missing.

Q: When are the shooting attacks from Inquisitor
Coteaz’s I’ve Been Expecting You special rule fired?
(p45)
A: They are fired as soon as a unit that is a valid target
is placed on the board. Once the shooting attacks have
been resolved, the unit can complete its move. If the
unit is arriving by Deep Strike, this will be after the
scatter has been resolved.

is the faq rule.

the important part is the attack is "they are fired as soon as a unit that is a valid target is placed on the board"

This also means to be a valid target they have to within 12" of coteaz because his rule states units arriving from reserve within 12".

If a model is placed on the table from reserves 18" from coteaz it is placed on the board. It is not within 12" of coteaz so it is not a valid target. If he could fire at a unit that arrived from reserves anywhere on the board then moved within 12" of him it would say such in his rules, but it doesnt. You would also have silly things happen like I arrive a supersonic dark eldar jetcraft 33" away and then want to move over coteaz to drop a bomb, but as per the faq you have to resolve your shooting attack where I arrived on the board so if the mistaken interpretation of being able to fire at any unit that arrived from reserves that later moves within 12" of coteaz is used instead of the actual rule which is units arrive from reserves that are placed on the board within 12" of coteaz you will have a situation where a model is bombing coteaz and unit but they fire at it from 33" away.

which is silly right?

if the faq had said arrives from reserves and moves within 12" it would be different, but it clearly says a valid target ie. 12" entering from reserves, is placed on table.

in short its not the entire movement from reserve, arriving from reserves is the act of being placed on the board. In the case of outflanking the models are not on the board so they would be stopped at the edge they enter from if within 12" of coteaz and fired on, then they move normally.

So yeah coteaz has to be within 12" of the board edge to stop people from outflanking near that edge.

The only thing is that models are not placed on the board until the END of their move usually.

That is the only part I am questioning.


My process for a unit arriving from reserves

1) Measure 6" from the appropriate table edge.
2) Place the model 6" away from the table edge.

The model is never "placed on the board" at the board edge. It is placed at the end of its move, as the move has no starting position.


This would seem to imply that the end of the move is the important location for Coteaz shooting ability, not the start of the move. It would seem that the note about completing their move after the shooting attack is redundant, as a model is usually not placed on that board until the end of their move.

It has a starting position - see arriving from reserves. However the starting position is just off the board...

nosferatu1001 wrote:It has a starting position - see arriving from reserves. However the starting position is just off the board...

Okay, I can see that I guess.

If the Off the Board Starting position is off the table, but within range of Coteaz's shooting attack, do you get to fire at the arriving unit when it is off the table?
(If the arriving unit is a vehicle and you stun or immobilize it, it would be removed as it was unable to fully move onto the table.)


If it starts off then table, is the unit ever placed on the table anywhere other than the ending position for their movement?


I guess what I am asking is whether Coteaz's shooting attack occurs Before the move, During the move, or After the move onto the table.

If it is Before or During, what are the rules for placing those models in regards to template and Blast Marker Weaponry.

I think it's one of those situations where there's a difference between how the game is supposedly played, and how it's actually played.

Supposedly: Models slide across the board like chess pieces, and so are 'on the board' from the moment they cross the vertical threshold of the table edge.

Actually: Folks pick their models up, find where they're going, then plunk them down, crossing but not 'going through' intervening terrain (including Open Terrain), and so are 'on the board' when their bases finally touch, having appeared there through the hand of a gaming god.


It is, once again, the point where 'abstraction' and 'fluff' makes a mockery of how actual games and tournaments are played, like how everyone basically treats Cover as another type of Invulnerable save, when it's actually an abstraction of making the enemy miss more.

If you imagine it's actually Tinyhammer (you know, where the minis come to life ala Indian in the Cupboard) it makes much more sense, since, other than Deep Striking units, the models/units would actually have to slog across the board, especially when coming in from reserves.

okay, so the shooting attack should take place in the middle of the enemy model's move.



Are you allowed to break coherency, as coherency is checked at the end of the move not in the middle?

Do you still move the models one by one, and fire when the first model crosses into Coteaz's zone?

The first model moves 3" and hits Coteaz's zone. Do all of the other models more 3" or can some move more or less before the shooting attack is made?

Coeaz's zone goes off the edge of the board, and a model is attempting to move on there. How much on the model must be on the board before Coteaz shoots? none, some or all?
This is very important for Vehicles because if they are partially off the table and are stunned they are destroyed. (just like a Death or Glory Attack)



I understand what is supposed to happen in the Fluff. Coteaz sets up an ambush and shoots the people sneaking up on him. There are no Board Edges in the grim dark Future of the 41st Millennium.


All I am asking is what you are supposed to do on the table top, because at the moment, the only way I see to play it, is to shoot the models at the END of their moves, which seems to be contradicted by the FAQ saying that you shoot then models "complete their move".

I can not find the rules for placing models on the table in the middle of their moves or for shooting units that are placed off of the table. Please give me a page number for those rules.

(note: I realized that after I typed this, the last sentence sounds a bit more aggressive than I wanted. All I would like is an explanation of how you can or must place your models for this shooting attack)