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Do Dedicated transports count for Compulsory selections on the Force Org chart?

I am leaning towards yes, This had never occurred to me until today, and I have been thinking about it, What do you guys think?

Page 67, BRB, Dedicated Transports. It doesn't take up a slot, and the rules for FOC are that you need to take a unit that takes a slot. (Page 87 BRB, FOC)

EDIT; to clarify, dedicated transports have no FOC selections associated with them. If they did, we'd be able to use Chimeras as Objective Holders. That would be broken.

Shadelkan wrote:Page 67, BRB, Dedicated Transports. It doesn't take up a slot, and the rules for FOC are that you need to take a unit that takes a slot. (Page 87 BRB, FOC)

EDIT; to clarify, dedicated transports have no FOC selections associated with them. If they did, we'd be able to use Chimeras as Objective Holders. That would be broken.

The FaQ for the Emperors Champion Disagrees with you.

As for your edit, dedicated transports count as being from the same force organisation category as the unit they were bought for. P.87

Also Vehicles can not claim Objectives, unless specifically allowed to.

Point the first, units do not have to take up a slot to fulfill a mandatory choice. All that is required is to "make one selection from that portion of your army list".

Point the second, no, dedicated transports do not qualify as your second troop.
"Dedicated transports
Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organisation structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for. When this distinction is called for (for example in some missions or deployment types), dedicated transport vehicles count as being from the same force organisation category as the unit they were bought for."
So when you take a dedicated transport, you are not making a selection from that portion of the army list. You're making a selection that might, a t a later time in the game (iDawn of War deployment for example) have a Force Org type assigned to it based on the unit it is bought for. But when bought and making the list, it does not have a Force Org 'type'.

Oh, and Shadelkan, even if they were always Troops, they couldn't hold an objective due to being vehicles........................

Wouldn't the distinction be called for by virtue of needing two compulsory selections?

E.G. You need one HQ, Check, I now need two Troop selections, well I have a infantry squad, that is one, and I have a drop pod, does the drop pod count? well what does the drop pod count as? Troops, okay so I must have two troop selections?

Either way it is not 100% clear.

Right, I forgot about the vehicle bit.

You answered your own question when you replied to me, didn't you DeathReaper?

Course, that said, we were talking about Dedicated Transports, what did that have to do with the Emperor's Champion?


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Its very clear, you need to make a troops selection, not a unit that counts as troops.

A unit that counts as troops = a unit of troops (Without using a troops slot thus you can have more than six of these)

If it counts as troop unit, and it is a selection, then it is a troop selection.

I am not really sure I agree with my stance, I am just trying to find out what is legal and what is not.

The Emperor's Champion does not take up a force org slot, but Can fill the 'One HQ Compulsory selection' of the chart. (Similar to a dedicated transport)

Yknow that rule that says rules in Codices take precedence (ie, are exceptions)? The EC is part of a codex, and does not apply his rules to every other Codex out there!!

I'm trying to answer the first question; you obviously have a specific situation, but the general answer is that ya can't use a dedicated transport as a troops selection. Unless it specifies (such as in the case for EC), a dedicated transport does not count towards your compulsory selection. As don_mondo put it, they sit outside of the FOC chart, and therefore do not fill it.

Imagine the FOC is a bunch of blinky lights. Now imagine that in order for an army to be good to go, you need to have the HQ and two Troop slots go all "on" and stuff. Well, taking a tac squad gets ya one; but then taking a drop pod for that tac squad doesn't change anything. It just turns on a light in an invisible section with a billion other off-lights.

Basically, COUNTS AS =/= IS. DTs, on page 87, says it COUNTS as being from the same FOC selection, it doesn't say it IS a selection of the same type its bought from.

Shadelkan wrote:Yknow that rule that says rules in Codices take precedence (ie, are exceptions)?

No, because there is no such rule.

It's generally the case, but it works that way because of the specificity of the rules in question, not just because the rule happens to be in a codex.

But with 'Counts as' you regard that unit 'as if it were that type'

and 'When this distinction is called for' is in this instance.

even though they 'sit outside the force org chart, The Emperor's Champion is worded the same way and does not take up a force org slot

But he can fill the 'One HQ Compulsory selection' of the chart.

I know he does not apply his rules to others, but this is in the BT FaQ, so it sets a precedent for things that do not take up a force org slot to count for the minimums.

Also look at summoned daemons from Codex CSM, they Specifically disallow you to use summoned daemons as your two selections. why would it have to say this if things that did not take up a selection on the FoC did not count as FoC compulsory selections?

If were going to go on about "why does one codex specify," then let's look at Tau; their transport, the devilfish, is a unit you can take without first taking another; it is an actual troops choice. It clearly gives you the option of, say, taking firewarriors, a devilfish, an HQ, and your good to go.

Plus, last I checked, just cause one codex bothers to specify, doesn't mean the opposite must be the normal assumption. Okay, so CSM specified, so what? The BRB clearly says DTs sit outside the FOC, why are we kicking a dead horse? If its outside of the FOC, it doesn't work with the FOC at all except to determine its unit type. Unit type =/= FOC selection slot type.

Shadelkan wrote:If were going to go on about "why does one codex specify," then let's look at Tau; their transport, the devilfish, is a unit you can take without first taking another; it is an actual troops choice. It clearly gives you the option of, say, taking firewarriors, a devilfish, an HQ, and your good to go.

Plus, last I checked, just cause one codex bothers to specify, doesn't mean the opposite must be the normal assumption. Okay, so CSM specified, so what? The BRB clearly says DTs sit outside the FOC, why are we kicking a dead horse? If its outside of the FOC, it doesn't work with the FOC at all except to determine its unit type. Unit type =/= FOC selection slot type.

Where does it say this (The underlined)

That is just it, Unit taken as troops = selection of a troop unit = one of the two compulsory selections from the troops section.

Because being "outside the force org chart" simply means they can fill any role as noted in their entry, they count as troops if bought for a troop choice, they count as elites if bought for an elite unit, that is why they sit outside the normal force org chart, because one drop pod might be troops, one might be heavy support, and one might be HQ

Do you know what the difference between 'counts as' and 'is'?

If you do, is a dedicated transport a troops choice? The answer is no, its not a troops choice; but it counts like one. The answer is right there, if you refuse to accept that, whatever.

The only time you'll ever need to sell this point is in competitive or non-competitive; the former will have your wrist slapped, and the latter doesn't matter much except for fun; so why not bend the rules for fun right?

Right, you need to have two troops choices.

I take one troops choice, and a dedicated transport for that troops choice.

One is a troops choice.

One counts as a troops choice.

how many troops choices do you have?

Well we know they are each their own separate unit, they will each give one Kill point in Kill point games. It seems we have two Troops units. two different units = two selections.

Its like rending CCW's, on a to wound roll of a 6 they count as power weapons. they arent power weapons, but if you roll a 6 they count as power weapons granting all of the same effects as a power weapon. (I.E. the rending acts exactly like a power weapon in the listed situation)

I.E. dedicated transports act exactly like a troops choice "When this distinction is called for"

Clearly the distinction is called for regarding the Force org chart.

So why would a dedicated transport that 'Counts as' troops not affect the game in the same way as an actual troops choice?

I give up, I don't care for this anymore. We can't convince each other anything, so why bother? Play the game as you wish, make sure opponent is okay with it; after that, who really cares?

I was more asking for solid rules against my position, I am not sure it should work as I have presented it, but I do not see rules that prove me wrong.

Yet.

They could be out there, I may be missing them. so if anyone has rules references and page numbers please post them.

I don't believe it is "called for" when you are making an army list.

------------

On a side note, I think that Emp's Champ ruling was extremely dumb and appears to be messing with the game.

Without the Emp's Champ ruling, I would have no thoughts about Dedicated transports being troop unit choices able to fill the compulsory selections.

That rule makes me think they can though.

"When this distinction is called for" is ambiguous language on GW's part.

We know GW tries to make all rules free of ambiguous language [/sarcasm]

Stupid RaW is Stupid.

I dont know what codex you're reading this from but in all the ones I have dedicated transports are listed under "Dedicated Transports" and not "Troops." If you're reading a codex where a transport is listed under the "Troops" heading I guess I don't see a problem with it then. Just because a troop can take a dedicated transport doesn't automatically make it a troop choice.

The emperor's champion did make a mess of things though... If they don't want to take up organizational slots but still want to limit their number they should have put in a heading of "Additional units." That would have cleared this whole mess up. It would be easy to say "Ministorum Priest, your army may include up to 4 ministorum priests." Except they didn't put that into their original framework so they usually put them in as HQ choices.

I don't see a huge advantage of this unless you have a specific plan in mind since vehicles can't hold objectives anyways. If you're playing random missions out of the BRB then you're going to get objectives 66% of the time.

Brennus43 wrote:I dont know what codex you're reading this from but in all the ones I have dedicated transports are listed under "Dedicated Transports" and not "Troops." If you're reading a codex where a transport is listed under the "Troops" heading I guess I don't see a problem with it then. Just because a troop can take a dedicated transport doesn't automatically make it a troop choice.
<snip>

From Page 87 of the 40k Rulebook:
under the heading: Dedicated transports
"Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organisation structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for. When this distinction is called for (for example in some missions or deployment types), dedicated transport vehicles count as being from the same force organisation category as the unit they were bought for."

So a Drop pod bought for a troops choice is a troops choice drop pod "When this distinction is called for"

Of course what they mean by "When this distinction is called for" is anybody's guess.


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Here we go, Page 92 under Multiple unit choices:

"Note that occasionally the codexes allow the player to include several units in his army at the cost of a single force organisation slot (Like dedicated transports, etc). apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects"

why could they not have put that under the dedicated transport rules in the Force organization chart section?

I hate GW's writing.

Yeah I don't have my BRB in front of me, but I vaguely recalled that. It seemed like something they put in there as a future CYA thing in case they decided to add rules about FoC to things like Planetstrike or Battlemissions.

I'm sitting here trying to come up with a reason why it *shouldn't* be allowed. I really can't come up with one, lol.

I can only think of point shaving reasons. 40 point troop choice would allow you to use those points on other units in other FoC spots.

I'd allow it in a game.

Shadelkan wrote:If were going to go on about "why does one codex specify," then let's look at Tau; their transport, the devilfish, is a unit you can take without first taking another; it is an actual troops choice. It clearly gives you the option of, say, taking firewarriors, a devilfish, an HQ, and your good to go.

Kind of late, but the Devilfish is a "Transport" not a "Troops". Look at the sideways text under the grey bar at the bottom of page 36.

DeathReaper wrote:Wouldn't the distinction be called for by virtue of needing two compulsory selections?

E.G. You need one HQ, Check, I now need two Troop selections, well I have a infantry squad, that is one, and I have a drop pod, does the drop pod count? well what does the drop pod count as? Troops, okay so I must have two troop selections?

Either way it is not 100% clear.

Wow, you missed the entire point of my post, didn't you? The dedicated transport does NOT automatically count as a troops unit the second you assign it to a Troops squad. It only becomes a Troops unit if the scenario or deployment requires a distinction to be made as to what type of unit it is. Otherwise, it's a null, with no force org type. Got it now?

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Shadelkan wrote:If were going to go on about "why does one codex specify," then let's look at Tau; their transport, the devilfish, is a unit you can take without first taking another; it is an actual troops choice. It clearly gives you the option of, say, taking firewarriors, a devilfish, an HQ, and your good to go.

Kind of late, but the Devilfish is a "Transport" not a "Troops". Look at the sideways text under the grey bar at the bottom of page 36.

You're kidding. Are you serious? That barely noticeable grey text automatically makes it a non-troops? I don't believe this... Besides, it doesn't say anywhere that it's a dedicated transport, or it doesn't take force org chart slots. So... what the deal?

Death Reaper already quoted the relevant rule. A dedicated transport occupies the same FOC-slot as its "parent" unit, so buing fire warriors with a DT would result in both being one troops choice. It's the same with IG plattoons, many units counting as a single troops choice.

Shadelkan wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Shadelkan wrote:If were going to go on about "why does one codex specify," then let's look at Tau; their transport, the devilfish, is a unit you can take without first taking another; it is an actual troops choice. It clearly gives you the option of, say, taking firewarriors, a devilfish, an HQ, and your good to go.

Kind of late, but the Devilfish is a "Transport" not a "Troops". Look at the sideways text under the grey bar at the bottom of page 36.

You're kidding. Are you serious? That barely noticeable grey text automatically makes it a non-troops? I don't believe this... Besides, it doesn't say anywhere that it's a dedicated transport, or it doesn't take force org chart slots. So... what the deal?

You can't just ignore what's written.

It also says "Transport" before the name of the unit.

DR: They are 2 separate units, but not selected as such. DTs are selected as part of a troops unit; just the same as you cannot take 1 10-man SM squads, Combat squad them and claim that you have fulfilled the FOC 2-troop requirements.

You also need not fill the FOC slots, only select units from the required sections(summoned daemons in CSM have specific rules stating that they do not count as required selections, along with not filling slots). The FOC never has any requirements that the slots be filled only, that selections from them are made.

Death you quoted the reason a DT doesn't count as a compulsory choice. A DT uses the same force org selection as its parent unit. Pg 92