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Everytime Footdar gets mentioned, the same old Wraithwall list gets trotted out. Now, I fully appreciate this is a decent list is it the only way to run Footdar? Also, would Warwalkers be a viable alternative to Wraithlords in an otherwise standard Wraithwall list?

Now to Jetbikes. Lets say I take a seer council and, oh, 3x6 jetbike (some with ShuriCannons..), some FD's in a Waveserpant and some DA's in a Falcon; how would Vypers fit in?? At first it looks like an easy fit, but would I be better off spending points elsewhere?? Are Vypers worth it??

Personally, I don't like vypers. They just feel far too fragile for what you get. I would avoid bringing them in any list. However, I know there are plenty of people who would disagree, saying that vypers are a decent option, It really comes down to your own playstyle. The model and its rules would fit well into your jetbike army, yes. They are fast and would act like a small fast moving weapons platform. However, you would need to take great care to keep the points on these guys low. Remember, thanks to that open topped status, they can be brought down fairly easily by bolter fire.

See, I LIKE the model and rules, but it worries me a bit that I'll add them and they'll add nothing significant to the list.

The main people have with Vypers is their comparison to War Walkers.

- Vypers cost 15 more points base
- Vypers have fewer wepaon options (only one main turret)
- Vypers have weaker armor (open topped)
+ Vypers don't compete w/ Falcons, Prisms, and Spinners for a slot
+ Vypers have superior movement.

The problem is illustrated in that for 60 points you can purchase a Vyper with a Scatter Laser, or a War Walker with 2 scatter lasers. The War Walker costs the same number of points, is better armored and has nearly double the shooting capacity.

For this reason Vypers seem to see most of their use as filler units. They get taken after Heavy support has been filled up. Vypers generally function by using their range coupled with a low target priority to plink at the enemy with their heavy weapon.

Another interesting Vyper build is

(65) Vyper- shuri cannon, star engines

This keeps the Vyper cheap and gives it a protective role. You can take shots with a different tank- a wave serpent, falcon, fire prism, war walker squadron etc- then activate star engines on the vyper to move it inbetween the enemy and your tank. a sort of mobile screen if you will.

Managed to answer my own question about Footdar..

http://www.chaoswins.com/2011/02/playing-exploring-footdar.html

Still, interesting though..:/

Wraithlords see the table more than war-walkers in wraithwall lists due to target denial.

By offering the opponent only T8 MCs or T6 troops to shoot at, you remove all appropriate targets for most heavy weaponry. Even though, in this day and age, wraithlords aren't that durable, they are still far more durable than war walkers. That isn't to say that war walkers have no place in a wraithwall list, but, their offensive punch combined with their presence as the only good target for offensive AT means they will be targeted first, always. This works directly against one of the main strengths of a wraithwall list, which is not giving the opponent any good targets to shoot at.

Vypers don't have this problem, as, noted above, they do not compete with 'Lords for FoC slots, and they are less of a threat offensively. I take vypers in my wraithwall lists, and I nearly always reserve them. They tend to come on the table just as the wraithwall is nearing effective range, and the opponent is loath to divert fire to such a secondary target (non scoring, not a large threat).

Wraithwall gets trotted out as footdar 99% of the time because other methods of footdar.... in my opinion, just don't hold up. They are simply too fragile, die too easily, and are too pricy.

Son_Of _Deddog wrote:Everytime Footdar gets mentioned, the same old Wraithwall list gets trotted out. Now, I fully appreciate this is a decent list is it the only way to run Footdar? Also, would Warwalkers be a viable alternative to Wraithlords in an otherwise standard Wraithwall list?

Now to Jetbikes. Lets say I take a seer council and, oh, 3x6 jetbike (some with ShuriCannons..), some FD's in a Waveserpant and some DA's in a Falcon; how would Vypers fit in?? At first it looks like an easy fit, but would I be better off spending points elsewhere?? Are Vypers worth it??

First, Warwalkers cannot serve as replacement for Wraithlord, they are just an add-on with their high number of serhots (scatter lasers please).
The reason is that you'll need the Wraithlords for anti-tank (brightlance and eml) and for counter-charge.

Second, Vypers are a viable option. Their fill gaps in the target priority schedule (e.g., there is this last Khorne Berzerker and he must die) and are bottom ranked at the target priority schedule of the enemy.

Footdar!!! Seriously, one of the most fun armies to play that I have ever used due to the challenge, synergy of the units and style of play. I have been playing footdar for years now and really enjoy them. I don't run the wraithwall configuration, although I know some very good players who do. I prefer to take loads of dires and guardians along with some rangers to camp an objective as well as a bike squad for speedy objective taking. The avatar is important here to keep everyone fearless. He army takes a lot of skill to use well, but is very rewarding to play. Just be wary of leaf blower guard. You have to play a very unconventional game to win or tie in that match up. Also, do a Google search for my footdar article that was on bols a while back for a lot of information you may find useful. Good luck!

I can see how Wraithlords are much more durable, but to my (albeit inexperienced) eye it seems that if we compare 3x1Wraithlords with 2x3 Warwalkers with SLs or EMLs, the Walkers seem to pack a bigger punch. It's a tradeoff, I guess, between toughness and offensive punch.

So, most lists seem to go with Guardians +SLs as troops. I can see how this would be good. Harliquins are also common as CC / counter charge; can Banshees or Scorpians take this role??

Harelquins are most often used as counter charge because of Veil of Tears. There are no eldar assault troops which can withstand several turns of shooting, so the only solution is to take a unit which simply cannot be shot - harlies.

I've used harlequins numerous times, and when i take them, they are typically my MVP. Fortune them, doom their target, and they hit like a brick-loaded dump truck.

War walkers do indeed pack a bigger punch than wraithlords, they are consequently bigger targets, and are less durable on top of that. 3xWraithlord + Avatar + eldrad is a fearsome combo for my lists, which is why war walkers don't see the table often for me.

Guardians vs rangers - I usually take 1 unit of rangers when i can, for back-field objective sitting. Guardians are much more effective if you want to move to a mid-field objective cleared by the wraithwall, for multiple reasons:

- they can move and fire their platform
- their shuricats offer them far more protection against enemies encroaching on their position. Doom, combined with 9 shuricats and 1 scatter laser, can make any unit feel the pain.

I've been running a very unusual footdar list for the past couple months that looks something like this at 1500:

Farseer (fortune+doom) (staple for keeping units alive)
Maugan Ra
Howling Banshees
Fire Dragons
Dire Avengers
Rangers
Warp Spiders
Swooping Hawks
Dark Reapers
1 Falcon.

It's as Biel-tan as I can make it, looks great, smacks of theme, and (much to my surprise!) is actually holding its own with a 50-50 win ratio against most armies!
The army has a tool to handle any job and packs a wallop of killing power, though it also requires a very deft touch and can crumple if you don't (or can't) stick to plan.

In terms of fun, however, I don't think I've ever had as much as now. For someone who loves aspect warriors it is perfect!

Lady_Canoness wrote:I've been running a very unusual footdar list for the past couple months that looks something like this at 1500:

Farseer (fortune+doom) (staple for keeping units alive)
Maugan Ra
Howling Banshees
Fire Dragons
Dire Avengers
Rangers
Warp Spiders
Swooping Hawks
Dark Reapers
1 Falcon.

It's as Biel-tan as I can make it, looks great, smacks of theme, and (much to my surprise!) is actually holding its own with a 50-50 win ratio against most armies!
The army has a tool to handle any job and packs a wallop of killing power, though it also requires a very deft touch and can crumple if you don't (or can't) stick to plan.

In terms of fun, however, I don't think I've ever had as much as now. For someone who loves aspect warriors it is perfect!

What I like about this is that its not "just another Footdar list"....

It strikes me that Footdar falls into 2 camps. Wraithwall and it's derivertives, where being rock hard (Wraithguard,Wraithlord) is the key, and you seem to play a bit defensivly , and a more aggressive breed, using Aspect warriprs and Walkers-and even Bikes. Personally, I am getting more drwan towards the latter. Walkers seem to have more to offer than Wraithlords in attack, and Guardians/Harliquins/Dire Avengers (and even Warp Spiders) seem to add more flexability...

BUT....
What Waithwall lists lack in flexibility, they make up for by being rock 'ard

So, the question remains, is Wraithwall the best Footdat list? Whats the best way to play it? Are Aspect Footdar lists at least as good?? What about some sort of Hybrid?

Vypers offer two advantages over walkers.
1. They can't be tied down in CC. While a war walker can kick the vyper just stands there and takes it but it is one round and done and the vyper can back off.

2. It goes against fast attack FOC this is the weakest of all the areas for an eldar and vypers are probably the best of all the choices for fast attack.


When combined with jetbikes it can be used to provide unfettered fire at an opponent and then cover saves due to covering jetbike units useing their jetbike assault move.

To me one of the reasons for wraithlords being predominant in a footdar list is the lack of foot antitank. Surely you have short ranged fire dragons and wraithguard but nothing that combines accuracy and durability. A wraithlord with BL and EML gives you two AT shots every turn that are accurate and not the easiest to kill. AT is the biggest hole of a footdar list and one that you need to pick how you are going to address it.