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This list is one of four, just wanting to get some opinions on what list people think i should do and if i should make any changes to them (the other lists are: Haemonculi, Hellion and Kabalite warriors).


HQ

Succubus
Agoniser 85

Troops

10 Wyches
Hexatrix
Agonizer
2 Shardnets and impalers
Haywire grenades
Raider
Flicker Field 240

10 Wyches
Hexatrix
Agonizer
2 Shardnets and impalers
Haywire grenades
Raider
Flicker Field 240

10 Wyches
Hexatrix
Agonizer
2 Shardnets and impalers
Haywire grenades
Raider
Flicker Field 240

10 Wyches
Hexatrix
Agonizer
2 Shardnets and impalers
Haywire grenades
Raider
Flicker Field 240

Elites

Hekatrix Bloodbrides
3 shardnets and impalers
Syren
Agonizer
Raider
Flickerfield
Grisly Trophies 265

Fast Attack

6 Reavers
2 Heat Lances
Arena champion
Venom Blade 171

6 Reavers
2 Heat Lances
Arena champion
Venom balde 171

Heavy Support

Ravager
Flickerfield 115

Ravager
Flickerfield 115

Ravager
Flickerfield 115

So far, probably the most competitive list you've posted, but is still really lacking in the anti-vehicle for 2000 points. This may be a function of your meta-game; are vehicles not really common in your play group?

I think you'll find that the Reaver squads are too large; they'll be unwieldy to maneuver and have issues with terrain. It might be worth it to reduce the size down to around 6 each and add either Heat Lances or Blaster to the units. If you could shave enough points here and there to add Haywire Grenades to all of your Wyches, it might (and I stress might) help you with getting rid of all the vehicles you're likely to see in a harder list.

GA,
I'm wondering if you're even looking at the other DE threads.

No hekagonizers?

No FF on the ravagers?

Unless you rarely face vehicles, you need WAY more AT. As others have said, blasers/heat lances on the reavers are probably the most obvious choice. Also, arena champs on the bikes are nice, but they're the first thing I'd cut (other than an HQ). Caltrops are fun, and actually work well to keep the unit as dedicated anti-horde, but they cost almost as much as another reaver and are badly needed in your list for tank hunting. Better yet, have you considered beastmaster squads? I realize they're not technically wyches, but work very well with your list, both for CC AND tank hunting. 3 masters, 5 khymarae, and 4 razorwings are super deadly, super fast, and super cheap--and with proper wound allocation they're hardier than their statlines would suggest. They are far more versitile, hardy, and deadly than any reaver squad.

Also, where does your 2nd HQ go? There's no room on any of the transports for her... As cool as Lelith is, she's soooo expensive, especially when she's not really that much better than the succubus w/ agonizer (who always wounds on 4+). Lelith gets lots of attacks, but she needs them to inflict as much as an agonizer. The succubus also gets drugs, many of which put her even closer to Lelith in terms of killing power (+1 WS [even marines need a 5+ to hit her], +1 A, reroll wounds [this is especially deadly], and pain token come to mind). Few T3 enemies are worth her time, and anything tougher than T4 is going to be a real problem for her. Even on T4, she's only little bit better than the succubus. She's my #1 choice to cut. Use those points to put heka/agonizers/hawires on every one of your troop squads, a syren/agonizer on your bloodbrides, and flickerfields on every vehicle. At the very least, cut the succubus if you must play with Lelith. I'd also think about dumping the haywires on the bloodbride squad. They're your most dedicated CC unit, and although the versitility is nice, they should really not be charging vehicles. If you have the spare points after you make other cuts and modifications, fine, but they'd be one of the last things I'd add.

Also, and I realize this is just a matter of opinion, I like shardnets way, way, way better than any other wych weapon. Yes, the hydras will give you more attacks, but so will the shardnets when you take into account how many casualties they prevent. I love seeing the look on opponent's faces when they realize their dreads, termies, and special characters only get 1 (or maybe 2) attacks. They just work so well in conjunction with the wych dodge save that they far outshine other wych weapons.

This list really does have potential. You actually have a good base to work with, but you need to cut some candy if you want to be competetive. Mech armies and CC armies alike are going to eat this list for breakfast, at least as is. You only have 2 power weapons in the entire (CC-based) list!!


In sum, cut:

Lelith (175 pts)
Haywires on bloodbrides (18 pts)
Arena champs and caltrops (100 pts); or dump the squads altogether and replace with 156 pt beastmaster squads as above
(saves 293 pts)

Add:
Hekatrix/syren with agonizers to every squad (150 pts)
Haywires on all troop squads that currently don't have one (60 pts)
Flickerfields on all vehicles (80 pts)
(requires 290 pts)

Swap:
Hydras for Shardnets
Caltrops for blasters or heatlances (if you keep them), which will save you between 20-32 points over caltrops depending on which you pick

I think these changes will make you list much, much better and quite competetive! Looking forward to any revision you'd care to post. Good luck!

Thank you sooo much rmeju, i love it when people actually spend time writing replies rather then just say thats crap do this instead. Again thank you for the feedback

Gabrial Angelos wrote:This list is one of four, just wanting to get some opinions on what list people think i should do and if i should make any changes to them (the other lists are: Haemonculi, Hellion and Kabalite warriors).

A hellion list?


Whatever, let's look this one over;

Lelith Hesperax 175

Succubus
Agoniser 85

I'll second the brilliant fellow who asked where these ladies are going - you literally don't have room for them and that's just silly. Also, you really don't need both.
If you're running them with Bloodbrides with shardnets as the above poster mentioned I'd actually stick with Lelith, as that's a disturbing amount of lockdown. It really does depend though on what you want the unit to slam into.

10 Wyches
2 Hydra Gauntlets
Haywire Grenades
Raider 200

I'm not sure what you think this unit is good for. Because basically it's anti vehicle/dread but also has Hydra Gauntlets. It's strange.
There's so very few reasons not to take a Hekatrix w. Agoniser, as it will dramatically increase your ability to deal with MEQ. I'd probably drop the Gauntlets and however many Wyches it takes to work in the Hekatrix, she is worth it. I totally disagree with the above poster about dropping the grenades - it's silly to question how well the army can deal with AV and then advise dropping the Haywire grenades when they're part of the primary anti-vehicle thrust. I think you need more anti-mech *and* the Haywire Grenades.

I personally strongly suggest FFs on all your Raiders and Ravagers. Functionally it's, what, like 80 points (a little bit more than the cost of a Raider) to functionally give you 33% more Raiders/Ravagers on the board, because they'll actually be able to ward off damage when you're not cowering behind buildings. It's *huge*.

9 Hekatrix Bloodbrides
3 Hydra Gauntlets
Haywire grenades
Raider 225

I like Bloodbrides, I don't think you're using these in a way that's worth it. You would save a lot of points just by running regular Wyches, you would also gain a Troop option, which in the objective heavy world of 5th edition is a very smart move.

Ravager 105

I'd add FFs, as mentioned, other than that this is Ravilicious.

Fast Attack

6 Reavers
2 Cluster Caltrops
Arena champion 182

6 Reavers
2 Cluster Caltrops
Arena champion 182

What are you thinking you're getting here?
For pretty much the same points (actually less) you could field two Trueblaster units in Venoms w. extra S.Cannons. Let's compare them;

RJBs vs. infantry
12 poison shots at 12"
Or
4-12 Str 4 AP- shots and 2d6 Str 6 AP- hits at 36"
RJBs vs. Vehicles
piss all.

Trueborn vs. infantry
12 poison shots at 24"
Trueborn vs. mech
4 Str 8 Lance shots at 18" (can also be used vs. infantry)

So...for less points I can get a unit that's basically just as good versus infantry, and is significantly better vs. vehicles. Yeah...

If you want to run RJBs because 'models look kewl/I wanna be different from Trueborn spam/already own RJBs and can't afford to buy Trueblasters/et al" then I strongly suggest splitting your RJBs up into units of 3, each with a Blaster or heat lance (I support Blasters). They'll still have some anti infantry flavor, will help you hunt vehicles, won't be competing as much with the Wyches for targets, and will save you a lot of points you can use to help upgrade your Wych units.

My thoughts,
Thor.
Also - with some of your choices I will suggest you check out my DE Tactica (link is in my sig) which has a lot of info to help make the entrance to playing DE a less steep learning curve.

Gabrial Angelos wrote:Thank you sooo much rmeju, i love it when people actually spend time writing replies rather then just say thats crap do this instead. Again thank you for the feedback

Sorry that it was short and ugly, but 'twas entirely to the betterment of your list. The fact that you missed two major items that are standard, standard, standard on every DE list that you'll read, I figured that it would irk you into checking other lists. Sometimes an abrupt response is the most effective. And it worked.

Thor's advice is good too ... Naw, great.

I'm a fan. Thanks for posting.

No problem Gabe! I understand the draw of Lelith, but I spent a lot of time thinking about it and could never justify her in comparison to a succubus when she costs more than twice as much. Certainly two succubi would outdo her, and you'd save 5 points to boot! And I hate paying all those points for hekas, agonizers, and flickerfields, but those upgrades really do make their units much more effective. I never leave home without them. I used to hate haywires, but dreads, kans or really any walkers are a problem for wyches, and the ability to stun or kill tanks is handy. Also, if you've got the models, I really would try out a beastmaster squad sometime... I think you'll be hooked. I can't believe what they do for their points!

Anyway, glad you found some of that advice useful. Hopefully now you can go show your opponents that evil is good!


EDIT: I just realized you changed your list. MUCH, much better! Big thumbs up!

Looking at your new list a few quick thoughts;

Razorflails and Hydaknives are for the killing.
Shardnets are for the tarpitting.
What is the purpose of your Wych/Bloodbride units? To kill things they assault, or tarpit them? Choose equipment accordingly.

I'd also suggest dropping RJBs and taking more Wyches. Raiders with a lance and piles of Wyches are better than the bikes. Lots of things are better than the bikes, and you could afford lots of different options other than the bikes. This comes from someone who is actually using the bikes in competitive play - I really don't advise them in the purpose and loadout you're using them for.