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Ok, I KNOW SM chapters have rigorous selection processes to ensure that only the best of the bestest become Space Marines (hurr!) and if you're not up to it you die.

But what if the High Lords said, screw it, I'd rather 1000 half-trained super soldiers and a single fully trained one. Then they grab the next Cadian youth regiment and stuff them with geneseed, maybe 3/4ths or more die but hey, at the end of the day you have 1,000s of semi-space marines, not bad!

Hell even if they ALL die, you can keep recycling the geneseed until something sticks.

So my questions are,

Can the High Lords + Mechanicum actually DO this? Way I see it YES, cause the AdMech have the geneseed and its the High Lords who decide its time to found new chapters etc., not the SM.

What would be the reaction of the SM chapters? My initial reaction is they'd be pissed as hell, but would they really? I could be wrong but I've never heard of SM chapters complaining about foundings:

- lets found a whole bunch of chapters and make them guard the Eye of Terror! (the Astartes Praeses)
- lets found a chapter to fight daemonic possession! (Exorcists)
- I KNOW lets modify the geneseed to create a new breed of improved Space Marines! (21st Cursed Founding)

Then you have chapters like the Blood Ravens running around who don't even know where they came from. You'd think the other chapters would be suspicious as hell but I haven't heard anything (again, I could be wrong). So what does Dakka think?

The geneseed im sure is not like a shoe that you can pass around until it fits, it will get dammaged and the loss of a single one is irreplaceable.

Remember as well that something as logical to people from our time like finding a way to mass produce marines or heck even titans would be heretical to both admech and lords alike in 40k.

Because it is so much cheaper to field a million cannon fodder with more basic than it is to make one space marine while equipping him with really good equipment?

@HiddenPower

Good point, to be honest I'm not so sure. Whether or not the geneseed rejects the applicant seems to be totally random. But I'm pretty sure it can be salvaged from the applicant's corpse.

@Void_Dragon

I'm pretty sure a single marine is cheaper than 1,000,000 guardsmen, no need for hyperbole.

Well if the choosing process is so high attrition. They only accept the strongest and most capable a world or few worlds have to offer. Which isnt a large supply seemingly even in 40ks galaxy spanning Imperium. This in part stops the chapters becoming too powerful again to threaten the Imperium like the Legions did. Also I think that if you just mass made marines youd make them less effective if you stopped going for the brightest and best a planet has to offer. With lower quality of marines as a result. Nevermind the economic cost of mass supplying astartes power armor and weapons.

To be honest it comes to it the guard are more cost effective for mass deployment and much easier to maintain.

Edit: plus as said before. Geneseed is a finite resource. Cloning it has horrible effects and the only way to grow more of it is with marines that survive recruitment. Even as it is thats not a high growth rate due to rejection. If you made tons more marines and were less scrupulous about who got the geneseed you'd stand a chance of destroying the stocks of it.

Definitely the mass produced marines would not be as good as "the real thing". But that's my question, would it be better to have 100 mass marines armed with carapace armor and ripper guns, vs a single full-fledged marine w/ power armor and bolter? Think of it as a middle ground between the IG and the Marines.

Follow-up question is, would it be possible? I think so, based on my reasoning in my original post. The SM chapters don't seem to care much how / why the High Lords decide to found new chapters. Noted on geneseed being finite; personally I agree with you but I think its not THAT limited. The AdMech grows the stuff, tithes some more from existing chapters, and has enough on hand to once in awhile create 10~ chapters in one founding, so that's 10k geneseed right there.

Geneseed is a finite resource, and you want to be careful that you don't pull random bums off the street who are suspectable to corruption. It's better to have 1000 super soldiers who have a very slim chance of flipping to Chaos, than to have 10000 supersoldiers who might be more likely to flip.

Yes but how long might it have taken to get decent quality geneseed? From what I gather geneseed is not just geneseed. Some of it can be unstable and mutate. Making it highly risky to use.

What your asking for wouldnt be true space marines then. Your talking of minor gene therapy (compared to space marines). If you did the gene therapy and the not quite so in depth conversion a space marine undergoes it could be doable on a large scale. Technically such soldiers exist in the form of the adeptus mechanicus Skitarii legions and tech guard. They are heavily modified both genetically and with cybernetics to make elite shock troops. Even then those arent commonplace armies in the Imperium.

Lexx wrote:Yes but how long might it have taken to get decent quality geneseed? From what I gather geneseed is not just geneseed. Some of it can be unstable and mutate. Making it highly risky to use.

What your asking for wouldnt be true space marines then. Your talking of minor gene therapy (compared to space marines). If you did the gene therapy and the not quite so in depth conversion a space marine undergoes it could be doable on a large scale. Technically such soldiers exist in the form of the adeptus mechanicus Skitarii legions and tech guard. They are heavily modified both genetically and with cybernetics to make elite shock troops. Even then those arent commonplace armies in the Imperium.

There are also other genetically engineered soldiers in the form of the Macharian Clones(Last Chancers), the DKoK probably has had some genetic modifications since they are all clones, and we know that genetically engineered soldiers other than Astartes were used in the Great Crusade.

It's firstly, not economic. Equipping and maintaining a Space Marine is expensive enough, doing that on a large scale would be difficult and too expensive for the job they do. Secondly, there's a finite number of potential applicants. They not only have to strong of body, but strong of mind, which only makes long-running traditional recruiting grounds like Ultramar, and Feral worlds possible recruitment grounds. Even after recruitment, not everyone can pass the rigorous acceptance trials, which narrows it down further. It's narrowed down even further as not even all recruits who pass the trials are genetically acceptable.
Then there's The Imperial Command's unwillingness to allow a large number of Space Marines to exists, due to the superstition that they could turn against them and cause another Heresy, such apprehension isn't exactly unfounded.
It's also more economical to have trillions of Guard who can fulfill more roles, and that a huge number of Space Marines aren't even needed as they fulfill a very small, if vital, role in the protection of The Imperium.

Not to mention that even they don't understand the tech behind the creation of the Space Marine.
They screw it up a few times they tried to change something. Trying to create a bunch of Space Marines using technology you don't understand completely, very bad idea...
Not to mention that since Horus Heresy SM are not so loved by Imperial authorities.
And Space Marines are not designed to fought long wars of nutrition, they are design for fast surgical strikes. Imperial Guard is quite good at that, but they lack standardization on every world since only few planets in the Imperium are knows for training hardcore Guardsman.

WARS OF NUTRITION!

iproxtaco wrote:WARS OF NUTRITION!

That actually got a real life laugh from me.

I had forgotten about the Macharian clone stuff. But yes it would be unrealistic to call the results of what the OP wants a real space marine. Sure limited genetic changes and some cybernetics can be done but mass producing space marines just wont work. Or be allowed to. The biggest effect the chapter system has is it keeps the marines power base scattered and small. So they wont be as easily able to undermine the Imperium again like the legions did.

Thanks for the replies guys!

I still don't think that cost is a factor at all, if they really wanted to the High Lords could press-gang whole worlds to produce material for their mass produced marines. Its the kind of thing the IoM excel at :p And as mentioned they would not have to be as well trained or equipped, that's the whole point of mass produced. Quantity is its own quality after all haha.

But yeah, the whole flipping to Chaos bit and worry about a new HH cropping up would be a big downer to churning out marines fast and easy. Point conceded.

I guess the only question I have left is why the Space Marines don't have a greater say in new chapter foundings. They don't consider themselves completely under the jurisdiction of the High Lords, so you'd think they'd be more vocal about how 'their' geneseed is utilized. What if Terra decides to create a new chapter from SW and DA geneseed, would Logan be cool with that?

Void__Dragon wrote:Because it is so much cheaper to field a million cannon fodder with more basic than it is to make one space marine while equipping him with really good equipment?

The flip side is, the geneseed marie thing is over rated. To paraphrase the immortal Bard: Its the power armor stupid!
Equip guard with power armor and you have heavy infantry that can do most of the same things marines can. Fluffwise its doable. Codex wise its doable (Nuns with Guns and inquisitorial retainers). Remember, in 30K guard had access to skimmers and landraiders.

Who knows what skitarii really have?

Yes, it's the power armour, which is a massive problem to mass-production.

Frazzled wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Because it is so much cheaper to field a million cannon fodder with more basic than it is to make one space marine while equipping him with really good equipment?

The flip side is, the geneseed marine thing is over rated. To paraphrase the immortal Bard: Its the power armor stupid!
Equip guard with power armor and you have heavy infantry that can do most of the same things marines can. Fluffwise its doable. Codex wise its doable (Nuns with Guns and inquisitorial retainers).

Yes and no.

Fluffwise, the Power Armor that the Sororitas and 'normal' humans wear is basically "Dumb Armor" compared to the Astartes stuff. For the Sororitas and others wearing power armor without the genemodifications and Black Carapace--it's like strapping yourself into armor made out of a bunch of garbage cans.

For the Astartes, it's like having a second skin. They don't really suffer any ill effects (aside from it cutting down on their ability to manipulate really delicate mechanisms whilst wearing their gauntlets), but they gain all the benefits and bonuses of power armor--and then some.

Remember, in 30K guard had access to skimmers and landraiders.

Land Raiders, no. They did have skimmers though and could feasibly be given Land Raiders--but the majority of their transports were Sabres or Chimeras or even Rhinos.
Skimmers are a different story entirely though. The reasoning behind them becoming "Astartes only" in terms of fielding them is likely a strategic doctrine. The Guard don't really need something to zoom around in and get closer to the enemy with. They need heavily armed platforms to blow crap up with.

Who knows what skitarii really have?

The Mechanicus. And they're not telling.

Geneseed isn't finite, it is just extremely labour intensive to produce.

It works like this:

Implant geneseed into guy. Harvest 2 geneseed.
Implant those two into two other guys. Harvest 4 geneseed.

So on and so forth. If I get a moment I will find some fluff to back it up.

Fluffwise, the Power Armor that the Sororitas and 'normal' humans wear is basically "Dumb Armor" compared to the Astartes stuff. For the Sororitas and others wearing power armor without the genemodifications and Black Carapace--it's like strapping yourself into armor made out of a bunch of garbage cans.

For the Astartes, it's like having a second skin. They don't really suffer any ill effects (aside from it cutting down on their ability to manipulate really delicate mechanisms whilst wearing their gauntlets), but they gain all the benefits and bonuses of power armor--and then some.

***Agreed. Mass production of SOB style power armor would obtain most of the benefits of marines on the land, and eliminate the damage when they fall to chaos of their fleet going to chaos (the real risk is their fleet assets, their ground pounders are barely relevant).

Land Raiders, no. They did have skimmers though and could feasibly be given Land Raiders--but the majority of their transports were Sabres or Chimeras or even Rhinos.
Skimmers are a different story entirely though. The reasoning behind them becoming "Astartes only" in terms of fielding them is likely a strategic doctrine. The Guard don't really need something to zoom around in and get closer to the enemy with. They need heavily armed platforms to blow crap up with.

***Interestingly, earlier IG codexes in fact note their use of landraiders, which were later prohibited after the Heresy.

Who knows what skitarii really have?

The Mechanicus. And they're not telling.

Space Marines are already being mass produces as fast as reasonably possible. The gene-seed they store is only for emergency back ups in case they need to repopulate a decimated chapter (which isn't that uncommon). When they get enough of a stockpile, they just make a new chapter.

Didn't the last time the Emperor mass produce space marines lead to the Horus Heresy?

Also Corax tried to accelerate Space Marine production, and look how that turned out.

It's a waste of resources.
With the amount of time invested in to creating a Space Marine, you could recruit a million Guardsmen. Who aren't as dangerous if they go all whoopykillHERESY and don't think of a braindead Smurf as their spiritual liege.

rabidaskal wrote:Ok, I KNOW SM chapters have rigorous selection processes to ensure that only the best of the bestest become Space Marines (hurr!) and if you're not up to it you die.

But what if the High Lords said, screw it, I'd rather 1000 half-trained super soldiers and a single fully trained one. Then they grab the next Cadian youth regiment and stuff them with geneseed, maybe 3/4ths or more die but hey, at the end of the day you have 1,000s of semi-space marines, not bad!

Hell even if they ALL die, you can keep recycling the geneseed until something sticks.

A. the selection process is not just about picking those that are good soldiers, it is about selecting those that can accept geneseed without being killed or causing a taint to the chapter's geneseed

B. geneseed cannot be reused, once the 20 organs have been propergated the geneseed is used up and you then need the space marine's progenoids to mature to get more geneseed, that is why a single poorly picked recruit can be very costly.

C. space marines are super-human and when compared to other super-humans they are very stable and long lived, the reason that space marines are organised as they are is to protect the IoM.

D. the shear cost of fitting out a single chapter founding is massive, to supply a legion of new space marines would require a massive burden of multiple systems.

BluntmanDC wrote:D. the shear cost of fitting out a single chapter founding is massive, to supply a legion of new space marines would require a massive burden of multiple systems.

Yet historically they were able to do that with the Legions. Again, taking the geneseed out of the equation and just talking troopers, its not that big a deal.

the problem is that the process kills many of the initiates.


the organ implants are what kills them, and if that isn't it the training will.





now, the High Lords could simply found more chapters then they traditionally do, but it would be expensive and the potential risk would be fairly high.

Frazzled wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:D. the shear cost of fitting out a single chapter founding is massive, to supply a legion of new space marines would require a massive burden of multiple systems.

Yet historically they were able to do that with the Legions. Again, taking the geneseed out of the equation and just talking troopers, its not that big a deal.

The Legions were a tiny minority within the imperial warmachine, even during the Great Crusade. At least unless someone wants to explain me how only 1-2 million spacemarines can conquer an entire galaxy

Besides that, power armour is expensive and difficult to produce. The Sisters wear it because the church is filthy rich, some inquisitors wear it because they usualy don't have to care about money and the Space
Marines wear it because they have ancient pacts with the Mechanicus. To produce powerarmour for billions of guardsmen s completely illusionary when even carapace armour is too expensive/ difficult to produce to
provide it as standard equipment for every guardsman.

I'd liken it to the liked of todays special forces; all militaries have them. In the US you have a group like the Marines, or the Navy. In these groups most people would say both have thier purpose like the imperial guard does. but within those groups you have Recon and seals. both are just very intensive to train, and equip. best weapons, best body armor, best everything on the roughest and toughest possible... nwo incluse a need for specific genetic markers into the equation and you'd find it harder and harder to fill those ranks.

In the fluff I like how the space marines are... in practive i HATE that they are everywhere and some overpowered (I'm looking at BA and Wolves)

They did mass produce them. It was called the golden age of man and mass produced marines reconquered the entire galaxy, almost.
Then this gak happened.

The issue with why this wouldn't work as noted by others is economic - it essentially takes a lifetime to train and prep a Marine and it takes a few weeks of basic trainign combined with a cheap weapons/armor kit to create a guardsman. It doesn't make much sense to invest time and effort to create say a single Chapter when in the same time frame you could raise dozens of regiments and produce the armored tanks that support them. The Imperium has been about quantity over quality for a long time now.

Besides the basic time and effort there is the well known tendency of the geneseed to go wacky should you mess with it in any way. You run a very good chance of having your soldiers turn into mostrosities or even worse from an Inquisitorial perspective foster more "subtle" mutations that would lead them down the path of chaos.

Then you have the cultural angle - the Imperium wouldn't want a bunch of proto-Space Marines around for a good reason. The last time you had a lot of these elite super soldiers around you had this little thing called the Horus Heresy. Imperial Guard regiments are easy to control and just as easy to annhilate should the time come. You make your soldiers too good and they're not as easy to control.

I think another issue no one has raised yet are the Space Marines themselves. The geneseed is sacred to them and to have the authorities treat it like it was a simple weapons upgrade would be obscene and reprehensible for them, They would not be happy about it and why piss of the Space Marines unneccesarily?

The Sisters of Battle fulfill the role of sub-par mass produced Space Marines quite well. Their undying loyalty is also preferable to the bold independance common among Space Marine Chapters.

So yes, they could create a mass production of Space Marines, but it's easier to field Sisters wearing power armor and sporting bolters than it is to use tons of geneseed.