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My brother plays GK and we have had this pop up a few times if draigo has taken wounds of opponents in CC do they count towards the squads wounds or not say he's with a squad of 5 paladins (thats 14 wounds0 but he kills 6 people in CC without taking any wounds (so 20 wounds) would 4 wounds be enough to make them take a morale test or would 5 be necessary

Morale works off of Models, not wounds.

But remember casualties caused by close combat attacks do not trigger Morale checks.

Basically if you lose 25% or more of your models during a single phase you need to test morale.

If you have a unit with eight models and two of them die, you need to test morale.

If you have a unit with ten models and three of them die, you test morale.

Morale tests during the assault phase are slightly different than ones caused during the shooting phase. You should read pg. 39 - Determine Assault Results and Check Morale paragraphs and then pg. 44 - Taking Morale checks bullet c), both in the BRB. I am also not sure where you get the 20 wounds; Draigo has no way to regenerate or steal wounds.

deathreaper thanks for the clarification
sigmatron look on page 39 then 54 of the grey knights rulebook

I've read the Grey Knight Codex. Draigo has the Daemonbane ability (allowing him to insta-gib daemons/psykers if they fail a leadership check for every unsaved wound) which does not allow him to steal wounds. Wounds do however trigger a morale check in close combat, the 25% threshold is for all other phases only.

Sigmatron wrote:Wounds do however trigger a morale check in close combat, the 25% threshold is for all other phases only.

The above is incorrect.

Wounds do not cause morale tests, casualties do. and it is not restricted to the other phases only.

If a unit loses 25% or more of its models in ANY phase you need to check morale.

Therefore casualties can force a morale check in the assault phase, but this is tough to do since casualties caused by close combat attacks do not trigger Morale checks.

"Units that lose a close combat (ie. they suffer more wounds than they inflict) must pass a morale check to hold their ground." From pg 44 - Taking morale checks.

Also from pg 44. "A unit losing 25% or more of its models during a single phase must pass a morale check at the end of that phase or fall back. do not count casualties caused by close combat attacks as they are covered later."

"A unit that is locked in close combat does not have to take morale checks for taking 25% casualties." Read your rule book please.

Sigmatron - notice that pg44 talks about *models*, and not *wounds*

DeathReaper wrote:

Sigmatron wrote:Wounds do however trigger a morale check in close combat, the 25% threshold is for all other phases only.

The above is incorrect.

Wounds do not cause morale tests, casualties do. and it is not restricted to the other phases only.

If a unit loses 25% or more of its models in ANY phase you need to check morale.

Therefore casualties can force a morale check in the assault phase, but this is tough to do since casualties caused by close combat attacks do not trigger Morale checks.

Gonna have to agree with Sig on this one. Go read your BRB. The losing 25% to trigger a moral test is only during phases other then close combat. Moral tests for close combat are triggered is you lose the combat. Don't have my BRB in front of me so I can't give you specific quotes and pages, but I am 100% certain about this, and will have those pages and quotes for you as soon as possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sigmatron wrote:"Units that lose a close combat (ie. they suffer more wounds than they inflict) must pass a morale check to hold their ground." pg 44 Taking morale checks. Also from pg 44. "A unit losing 25% or more of its models during a single phase must pass a morale check at the end of that phase or fall back. dp not count casualties caused by close combat attacks as they are covered later." "A unit that is locked in close combat does not have to take morale checks for taking 25% casualties." Read your rule book please.

On second thought, why should I even bother to re-quote all this for you. Sigmatron has already clearly explained this rule, and given the appropriate quotes to back himself up. Can't really argue against this one guys, sorry.

sig oops my bad i thought it said daemonblade

My brother plays GK and we have had this pop up a few times if draigo has taken wounds of opponents in CC do they count towards the squads wounds or not say he's with a squad of 5 paladins (thats 14 wounds0 but he kills 6 people in CC without taking any wounds (so 20 wounds) would 4 wounds be enough to make them take a morale test or would 5 be necessary

I believe you are confusing 2 different weapons here. Draigo's weapon has the Deamonbane rule (nasty effects against deamons and psykers) and you are confusing this with the Deamonblade Inquisitors can take (roll 2D6 and it gains a deamonic power). As such he can't regen wounds as he is not equipped with a Deamonblade and therefor can't gain Vampyre.

On the when to take a morale check in close combat assaults, this is pretty well explained on page 39 under Check Morale. It says you have to take a morale check if you lose a close combat. On the same page 39 under Determine Assault Results it specifies when you lose an assault. The side that caused the least unsaved wounds loses.

Taking this into consideration, even if Draigo had been able to gain wounds these would not have affected the outcome of the assault result as this only looks and caused unsaved wounds.

I know and have all ready apologized to Sig about the mixup

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sigmatron - notice that pg44 talks about *models*, and not *wounds*

Sigmatron is correct here:

All phases excepting Assault care about 25% casualties(dead models).

The Assault phase does not have the Same morale requirements, instead only caring about the number of wounds(not dead models, just wounds caused) dealt by both sides. Those wounds are then added up and compared, the side that causes the least wounds loses the combat and takes a Morale test, modified negatively by the difference between the winning sides caused wounds and their own caused wounds.

The problem with RC on Sigs post may be due to the formatting. Sig, for future reference; try separating different ideas into different paragraphs, it helps to avoid confusion as I believe nos was thinking you were talking about 25% casualties morale tests as being wounds(and not dead models).

Yep, I was. I thought Sig was still using 25% by wounds, not models.

Sigmatron wrote:"Units that lose a close combat (ie. they suffer more wounds than they inflict) must pass a morale check to hold their ground." pg 44 Taking morale checks. Also from pg 44. "A unit losing 25% or more of its models during a single phase must pass a morale check at the end of that phase or fall back. dp not count casualties caused by close combat attacks as they are covered later." "A unit that is locked in close combat does not have to take morale checks for taking 25% casualties." Read your rule book please.

Phiasco II wrote:Go read your BRB. The losing 25% to trigger a moral test is only during phases other then close combat.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Sigmatron is correct here:All phases excepting Assault care about 25% casualties(dead models).

No, Kel, he is not correct.

Please read your rule book Sig. even the assault phase cares about 25% casualties.

I never said a unit locked in combat had to test morale for casualties. Units that are not locked in combat could have to check morale.

"A unit losing 25% or more of its models during a single phase must pass a morale check at the end of that phase or fall back." P.44 This applies to ALL phases note the underlined in the quote, Is the assault phase a single phase? yes, then you need to check morale if you take 25% casualties during that phase as long as the casualties were not caused by close combat attacks.

E.G. a unit assaults a transport and Destroyed-Explodes it. There are ten guys being transported, five of them die. A morale check would be needed for the unit that is now in the crater since it took 25% casualties in "a single phase" since the explosion is not a close combat attack, but it happened in the assault phase.

I'd like to point out, that losing 25% models during the assault phase outside of combat is perfectly possible(wrecking balls for example), and would cause a moral check at the end of the phase. Explosions count as caused in close combat though, due to the BRB FAQ.

DeathReaper wrote:

Sigmatron wrote:"Units that lose a close combat (ie. they suffer more wounds than they inflict) must pass a morale check to hold their ground." pg 44 Taking morale checks. Also from pg 44. "A unit losing 25% or more of its models during a single phase must pass a morale check at the end of that phase or fall back. dp not count casualties caused by close combat attacks as they are covered later." "A unit that is locked in close combat does not have to take morale checks for taking 25% casualties." Read your rule book please.

Phiasco II wrote:Go read your BRB. The losing 25% to trigger a moral test is only during phases other then close combat.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Sigmatron is correct here:All phases excepting Assault care about 25% casualties(dead models).

No, Kel, he is not correct.

Please read your rule book Sig. even the assault phase cares about 25% casualties.

I never said a unit locked in combat had to test morale for casualties. Units that are not locked in combat could have to check morale.

"A unit losing 25% or more of its models during a single phase must pass a morale check at the end of that phase or fall back." P.44 This applies to ALL phases note the underlined in the quote, Is the assault phase a single phase? yes, then you need to check morale if you take 25% casualties during that phase as long as the casualties were not caused by close combat attacks.

E.G. a unit assaults a transport and Destroyed-Explodes it. There are ten guys being transported, five of them die. A morale check would be needed for the unit that is now in the crater since it took 25% casualties in "a single phase" since the explosion is not a close combat attack, but it happened in the assault phase.

What part of "A unit that is locked in close combat does not have to take morale checks for taking 25% casualties." is hard to understand?

Sig, I hope you were right with that quote, as I still have my BRB in front of me and am relying on your accuracy

What part of

DeathReaper wrote:I never said a unit locked in combat had to test morale for casualties. Units that are not locked in combat could have to check morale.

Is hard to understand?

I said units that ARE NOT locked in close combat.

You do realize that units that are not locked in Close Combat can be killed by exploding vehicles and can be forced to take the morale test for losing 25% or more models as casualties.

Good point. I hadn't considered a unit losing models, yet wining the combat and no longer being locked in combat, and then losing more models, ie vehicle exploding like you said, thus being reduced by 25% of what they had at the beginning of that phase and thereby needing to take a moral test. You sir, are correct.

DeathReaper wrote:What part of

DeathReaper wrote:I never said a unit locked in combat had to test morale for casualties. Units that are not locked in combat could have to check morale.

Is hard to understand?

I said units that ARE NOT locked in close combat.

You do realize that units that are not locked in Close Combat can be killed by exploding vehicles and can be forced to take the morale test for losing 25% or more models as casualties.

I was responding to a very specific section of the debate; that being that Combat results rely on wounds, not casualties; and since that was the original question...

Yes I did misrepresent that 25% Casualties still matter in some very specific situations in the assault phase; the majority of assault phase casualties are caused via Close Combat and do not matter for the 25% casualty rules.

Seeing as your response to the original question was this:

DeathReaper wrote:Morale works off of Models, not wounds.

But remember casualties caused by close combat attacks do not trigger Morale checks.

Basically if you lose 25% or more of your models during a single phase you need to test morale.

If you have a unit with eight models and two of them die, you need to test morale.

If you have a unit with ten models and three of them die, you test morale.

I believe it is perfectly reasonable to assume you were making a mistake as your answer was in no way answering the original question and even worse was giving the original poster the wrong idea of what would happen in a close combat assault (the basis of his question). The fact there is a hypothetical situation in which part of this applies means nothing as in the context of the original posters question it has no bearing.

Your next clarification, on Sigmatrons statement that the 25% casualties does not apply in the assault phase, with an example however is absolutely correct and clarifies the way morale works. However at this point the discussion was already blurred by people using counter arguments to your first response.

Well his original question was not really clear. It seemed he was using the 25% casualty rules for Close Combat, which is not how it works.

However, I should have said:

Morale for casualties in any phase works off of Models, not wounds.

Close Combat morale works off wounds and not models for close combat attacks, and you do not check morale for losing 25% of your models from close combat attacks. You only check morale for losing the combat due to losing more wounds on your side than the opponent looses on his side of the combat.

I could have made it more clear by stating the above.

Sorry for the confusion.

Thanks and sorry about the mix-up though it was fun to watch the argument develop