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From a competitive standpoint, which do you prefer? I imagine each has situational advantages over the other. I'd like to get a grip on the how's and why's without buying both and learning for myself.

I'd prefer Psyfleman Dreads. With their S8 twin-linked autocannons they can particularly take down light- and medium-armored tanks.
Moreover, they are much cheaper than tooled-up DK's.

Psyfleman Dreds. They make MSU transport heavy armies cry. Especially if you can squeeze in 6 in your list.

Psyfleman FTW

Hückleberry wrote:Psyfleman Dreds. They make MSU transport heavy armies cry. Especially if you can squeeze in 6 in your list.

Well, I think that 6 would be overkill, 3 of them in the HS section would suffice.

If I had to choose, I'd definitely recommend Psyriflemen. Much more cost-effective than DKs.

I enjoy using DKs (from a tactical standpoint... I think the unit is goofy as hell), but Psyriflemen just bring so much more to the table. It's almost no contest.

they go in different lists.


the Dreadknight is for shunt punch/assaulty type lists.


the Psyfleman dreds are for shooty mech lists.

No you need to take both. Go with an almost 2-1 ratio of Dreads vs. Dreadknights. The Dread will open the transports and engage the enemy at range immediately while the DK will take on the tough stuff that comes out of the transports or gets into your lines.

You pop the Stormraven that just moved flatout into your deployment zone, but the dreads have a tough time vs. the Furioso which was in the back. The DK will step up and take it out.

Against the mirror matchup, deep strike the DK into 3-4 psyrifleman dreads and watch the carnage insue and the dreads have no answer for the DK.

3 squads of Long Fangs have a better shot at taking the dreads than the reverse happening. Drop of DK near the Long Fangs and all those missile shots bounce off as it rampages through the SW gunline.

Shooting in 40K is like airpower in the 21st century. It's loud, powerful and makes for big explosions, but if you want to get rid of an entrenched scoring unit you need to send in the ground pounders and that's the Dreadknight.

Dreadknights are a joke...

Fluff, maybe.

on the table, hell no. Dreadknights are dead ard.

NDK finds a place in terminator and Draigo wing armys. They are awfully expensive though, because they are best tooled out with heavy incinerator and personal teleporter.

My Dreadknights haven't been that great outside of the Heavy Incinerator roasting giant squads, his CC seems to go unnoticed... hell I lost a couple combats in a row to Fire Dragons a few games ago.

I wish he had more attacks, 3 just isn't enough when you don't have a charge. Ranged low AP weapons put holes in him as well.

Dreadnoughts have reinforced Aegis which is really, really useful and another reason why I think that they are, overall, better.

But, since it is the psyrifle dreads that are the kings of the GK dreadnought types, a DK with decent CC and anti horde is worth trying to fit in if you can. Plus the DK is much faster.

They do different things but if you don't have lots of points to spare, I would say that a psyrifle dread is more useful than a DK.

Psyfleman

Venerable Dreadnought is best. then Dreadnought. Then Dreadknighht. For most lists.

A big problem with dreadknights is their size: cover is hard to find and also unless shunting the sheer width of the base can make a properly terrained table quite hard to manoeuver. I really think it's either dreadnoughts or dreadknights because a single dreadknight does attract a hell of a lot of low AP high S fire and it's less able to shrug that off than a cheaper venerable dreadnought.

In general, Psylfemen will work in any list.

Dreadknights pretty much have to have a whole list designed around them. And half the time you take them you still want Ved dreads so you still have those autocannon shots.

It's too bad they are not fast attack or elites or something, since then people might actually use them more...as it is the psyflemen are so good they make the other choices look a little silly, much like long fangs for space wolves.

I'm working on the 3 psy dreads, 1 venedread, keeps my other 2 elite spots open for purifier squad and vindicare assassin for removing high av vehicles

It takes 10.8 space fairy dark lance shots to bring down a dreadknight.

Those 10.8 shots against a venerable dreadnought will produce 7.2 hits. Given glances may be pretty much discounted due to venerable status, that’s 2.4 penetrations to worry about. That’s not nearly enough for a mathematical destruction (but it would probably do for a normal dreadnought)

So the venerable dreadnought is tougher (also being immune to small arms, which the dreadknight is not) and whilst less mobile, has greater range.

A straight comparison of firepower is hard because they don’t get the same choices. But given the dreadnought will be 2 x TL autocannon and psybolts, whilst the dreadknight will have hammer, heavy incinerator and teleporter, although they do different sorts of things, we might call them roughly equal (the dreadknight’s mobility makes up for its lesser range). But that dreadknight is 50 pts more expensive than the venerable dreadnought.

If we could imagine a dreadknight allowed to take 2 TL autocannon and psybolts, it would be less effective in a static role than a venerable dreadnought, but minus its teleporter, and with the hypothetical 2 x TL autocannon, it’d be perhaps roughly comparable with a normal dreadnought in terms of survivability and would be exactly equal in firepower whilst costing more.

I’m no longer quite sure where I’m going with this, except that if a dreadknight is taken, it really needs to have a teleporter and needs to be able to make excellent use of its heavy incinerator and melee potential both. Otherwise you’d be much better using a venerable dreadnought. Perhaps aiming it at a high AV vehicle to use its hammer?

Consider these two points:

Any vehicle can be blown up by a single lucky shot, but the MC will take a minimum of 4 shots to kill.

The DK is a bargain if you take it naked or with just a hammer. Sure, the opponent will ignore it/them for a turn or two but run them every turn and enjoy the undercosted carnage once they get there.

Assuming BS 4 then to destroy a dreadnought with a single AP2 S8 shot is a 5.6% chance. To destroy a venerable dreadnought is a 1.2% chance. With AP2 S9 it’s an 8.3% chance, against a venerable it’s a 2.8% chance. With melta AP1 S8 it’s nearer a 9% chance for ordinary (double that at half range), and 3.8% for a venerable (about 10% at half range

A dreadknight w/hammer is 140 pts, about the same as an ordinary dreadnought (135).
With hammer and teleporter, it’s 215 pts, slightly more than the venerable (195).

I think in the first case (straight dreadnoughts) you have a point. A dreadknight is a better fire magnet as it is less susceptible to chance (but of course the reverse is also true, a dreadnought might absorb much more fire than expected). In the second case (venerables), I don’t think the chances are high enough to impact on a long term strategy (ie taking results over many games).

Also, without a teleporter I don’t see a dreadknight being fast enough to take out many vehicles with its hammer.

Venerable Dreadnought is best. then Dreadnought. Then Dreadknighht. For most lists.

The venerable upgrade is rather expensive.
I'd take three normal Psyfleman Dreads.
They are targets enough for the enemy so that
I wouldn't care if one goes down.

The venerable 'upgrade' is cheap at the price and increases survivability dramatically.

As an aside I think i may have actually assumes BS 3 rather than BS 4 in my workings above (ie 50% chance to hit, not 2/3). Obviously that doesn't impact on the relative performances. You'll note the venerable dreadnought is about 2-3 times harder to kill than the standard with any given weapon.

I'll set it out here ignoring 'to hit'

A single AP 2 S9 shot will penetrate 1/2 the time. Of those penetrations 1/3 will kill. So 1/6 is the total chance to be killed . The venerable will re-roll on kills and so is killed 1/18 of the time.

A single AP1 S8 shot will penetrate 1/3 of the time. Of those penetrations, 1/2 will kill. So 1/6. For venerables: 1/3 x 1/2 x 1/2 so 1/12. Also in this case a glance may kill on a 6. So we'd have to add 1/6 x 1/2 = 1/12 for dreadnoughts, 1/6 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/24 for venerables.

AP 2 S8 penetrates 1/3 of the time and 1/3 kill. 1/9 for normal dreadnoughts, and obviously 1/27 for venerables.

Given that venerables are also more accurate shooters 1/36 miss rather than 1/9, 60 pts to 'upgrade' is a steal in any list that doesn't need all its elite slots for other purposes.

Basically 2 venerable dreadnoughts outperform 3 normal dreadnoughts for what is essentially the same points (390 pts vs 405 pts).

If 3 dreadnoughts put out 12 shots per turn, that is 10.67 hits
2 venerable dreadnoughts put out 8 shots with 7.78 hits

That makes the standards 37% more efficient in terms of hits scored.

But unless the dreadnoughts are mysteriously ignored, the enemy heavy weapons will reduce the 3 dreadnoughts much faster than they do the two venerables. Venerable dreadnoughts aren't 37% more durable, they're at least twice as durable.

Take the space fairies (widely touted as being the nemesis of GK, and with some reason). If they deploy 30 Dark Lances and concentrate their shooting on the dreadnoughts, then they will statistically destroy 2 dreadnoughts in a turn's firing (with 3 shots left over). Shooting at 2 venerables then they need just over 40 shots to kill one. ie 3 turns to kill both with ten shots left over.

So turn 1 the dreadnoughts scored 10.67 hits. Turn 2 the survivor scores 3.56 = 14.23 in all.
Turn 1 the venerables scored 7.78 hits. Turn 2 they score the same = 15.56 (actually, to be fair they will probably have suffered a weapon loss so maybe we should say 7.78 + 5.83 = 13.61.

But then before turn 3 the remaining dreadnought is obliterated and over half the dark lances may fire elsewhere.
But only one of the venerables is down and the other can fire again, surpassing the regular dreadnought shooting even if only one weapon is fit to fire (by 19.44 to 14.23 or by about 37%) and tying up most of the dark lances for another turn.

Granted the distribution of damaged weapons from rerolls could impact this slightly more than I allowed for but I dodn't factor in damaged weapons for the regular dreadnoughts either.

And the venerables have given away 2 kill points, the ordinary ones 3.

I should add that if 3 dreadknights are brought instead (no upgrades costing roughly the same -- a bit more in fact) than the dreadnought options, two will be obliterated turn 1 and the survivor struggling along with a single wound. Ouch.