Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I know there are about 2-3 lists considered competitive

1: Crowe + Only purifiers+rhino and 3-Psyfel Dred. The problem with thi is that you only have one tactical option - Rush forword.And you will be easily anticipated.

2.Gun line -5-Psyfel Dreds 2 chimeras Jokero and Servitors + Coteaz and one Inquisitor(for mind lock) nd some Henchmen in Chimers for objective. The PROBLEMHoredes-only anti MEch

3.There is a Henchmen army but i haven't seen a really good built yet

SO. to fix the problem. To add some tactical advantage,options and anti horde i have come up with this.

Keep in mind this should be a super competitive list-If you know one that looks better do tell and more important tell me why

C&C Welcome

HQ

1#.C. Crowe 150

2# Mordrack and 4 Ghost knights -360 points

Troops

Purifier Squad(10 strong) 4 Psy -325
1 X Thunderhammer
Rhino

Purifier Squad(10 strong) 4 Psy -325
1 X Thunderhammer
Rhino

Purifier Squad(9 strong) 2 Psy -281(for Hq)
1 X Thunderhammer
Rhino

Heavy

Psyfel Dred - 135

Psyfel Dred - 135

Psyfel Dred - 135


Tctical andvantages give by GM rules,and some distraction until my rhinos get there.Maybe outflank

purifiers die just as easy as marines, either give them Halberds or Libby so the can kill stuff first

On the board turn 1 (or reserved) in an 1850pt game you will have:

3x Dread
3x Rhinos
1x Crowe
1x Mordrak Unit

My SW list shooting per round at 1850:

12x Missile Launchers (6 targets)
5x Lascannons (5 targets)
2x Living Lighting -1d6 str 7 shots (2 targets)
*2x MM Speders (2 targets)

*questionable wether they will get shots on turn one but should from there out.

One of the worst case scenario match ups I know, but SW is the army I play so I will use it. I can fire heavy weapons at 15 targets with a 36-48" threat range. Those are all str 7/8 and multiple shots per target for half of those while you have only 8 targets in your army. This means even with mediocre rolls you should see major losses after my first shooting phase. IG can do the same thing with less overall target options probably but more shots overall. DE will foot those poor purifiers and as snicker said they die just as easily as 10 tac marines eating that much poison fire.

I think just like a lot of GK lists people are making you are getting too caught up in the expensive goodies here and not trying to make a well rounded list. My advice would be to start by removing Mords unit and split those purifiers into more/smaller units. This gives you more target saturation and should not cost you any Psycannon shots as you will pick them up in the other units where you lost them in the 10 mans. Just my opinions, YMMV of course.

I am not sold on Mordrak and Ghost termies. They are just not very good IMO.


Strike squads work better in a 10 man unit. 2x Psycannons, Hammer, Psybolt Ammo and a rhino. They are mostly a shooting unit.


Purifiers work better as 5 man units. 2x psycannons, 3x Halbers, Rhino or a Razorback (Psy-Heavy bolter or TL-Las or Las/plasfor longer range. You have 24" shooting already)

svendrex wrote:Purifiers work better as 5 man units. 2x psycannons, 3x Halbers, Rhino or a Razorback (Psy-Heavy bolter or TL-Las or Las/plasfor longer range. You have 24" shooting already)

Not sure what factual data this is from, but Purifiers do not work better nor worse as a 5 man unit. Plus the build you listed can be tarpitted by a MC/Dread due to the lack of a Hammer. 10 men units can be used to CS into a makeshift Purgation squad with 4 Psycannons if need be or even when together can lay down rediculous fire once midfield and disembarked. 8-16 Str7 Rending shots is nothing to laugh at.

Dont put Las cannons or Las/plas on your Razorbacks, we arent Space Marines or Space wolves so we have to spend more for our units. Spending 35 additional points to outfit an AV11 vehicle with a las cannon is not a wise investment in points.

Dont go full MSU, it bleeds kill points and this is why many if not most fail in the tournament scene. You can create a decent list around Crowe while still maintaining high shot and model count/target saturation without MSU'ing.

Crowe
10 Strike Marines, 2 cannons, hammer Rhino
7 Purifiers, 2 Cannons, Hammer, 4 Halberds Rhino
7 Purifiers, 2 Cannons, Hammer, 4 Halberds Rhino
5 Purifiers, 2 Cannons, Hammer, 2 Halberds, Psyback
5 Purifiers, 2 Cannons, Hammer, 2 Halberds, Psyback
3 Psyfleman Dreads.

That would leave you with 145 pts to spend. Could bulk out squads, add psybolt ammo, field a Vindicare, etc.

Your 'analysis' on what you think constitutes a competitive build really shows how little you know about competitive lists. Copy and pasting an inferior version of the same purifier list we've seen time and time again isn't solving any problems.

Henchmen lists work fine, providing you take a balanced list with enough long range firepower. Hordes aren't really an issue when you have a plethora of Chimeras.

Your list needs some work. You have 6 vehicles and 6 terminators at 1850 points...not very scary.

Why are you taking a 9 man squad? You do realise that Crowe is not an IC, right?
The Purifiers aren't adding enough for the points you're spending on them. Instead of 10 man squads, take 5 men and give them Razorbacks for the extra long range firepower.
Other than being a big distraction, what are the Terminators really doing for you here?

If you want a competitive 1850 point Crowe list, try something like this:

Crowe - 150
Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, Conversion Beamer - 70
Techmarine, Conversion Beamer - 90
Warrior Acolytes (3), 3 Bolters, Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition - 65
Purifier Squad, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition - 190
Purifier Squad, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition - 190
Purifier Squad, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition - 190
Purifier Squad, 2 Psycannons, Razorback with Psybolt Ammunition - 190
Interceptor Squad, Psycannon, Deamonhammer - 145
Interceptor Squad, Psycannon, Deamonhammer - 145
Dreadnought, 2 TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition - 135
Dreadnought, 2 TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition - 135
Dreadnought, 2 TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition - 135
Total: 1850

Overall you lose 9 Purifiers and a few Terminators, but gain 10 Interceptors and a decent amount of long range shooting.
The Techmarine hides in his improved cover, while the warrior acolytes join up with the Inquisitor for abalative wounds and Coteaz jumps into the spare razorback.
The wall of Razorbacks advance with the Dreadnoughts getting cover behind them.
Interceptor Squads have deamonhammers because they have the best chance of getting into assault with enemy vehicles.

Dont put Las cannons or Las/plas on your Razorbacks, we arent Space Marines or Space wolves so we have to spend more for our units. Spending 35 additional points to outfit an AV11 vehicle with a las cannon is not a wise investment in points.

Ugh. You've almost said the right thing but for entirely the wrong reasons, which really just shows you have no idea and are just copy and pasting what others have told you. Las/Plas Razorbacks are expensive no matter who uses them you know. Blood Angels can do Razorback spam well due to having fast vehicles and Assault Squads as troops. Black Templars can do it well because of POTMS. Space Wolves can do it well because their basic 5 man troop choice can take meltaguns and are cheap(plus wolf guard for combi-weapons). Space Marines don't to Razorback spam well at all. Grey Knights are unique in that they pay slightly more for their Razorback spam, but are far more useful due to Fortitude.

Dont go full MSU, it bleeds kill points and this is why many if not most fail in the tournament scene. You can create a decent list around Crowe while still maintaining high shot and model count/target saturation without MSU'ing.

Haha, what a load of gak. Have a look at this years NOVA results, then tell me, how many of those top table lists use MSU? Here's a hint: All of them do.
I also like how you claim that MSU is gak in tournaments because of kill points but then post a bastardised semi-MSU list with more kill points than the original list, that still manages to bring less firepower than a regular Crowe/Purifier/MSU list does. Way to fail man.

The beautiful part about MSU lists is that even if you do feth up and somehow allow a Dreadnought to assault your troops, the Dreadnought can still only kill a maximum of 5 guys.

Unbeliever's list is solid, personally I am not sold on the conversion beamers, I would try a get a vindicare in the list somewhere.

I would probable drop one of the purifier squads for a large squad of henchmen.

The conversion beamer force the opponent into a lose/lose situation. Stay back and eat S10 Ap1 blasts, or move forward and face more firepower the closer you get.

They also require a bit of effort to get rid of, with a 2+/3+ save on the Techmarine and plenty of abalative wounds on the Inquisitor. Any heavy weapons going into them is one less aimed at your tanks and dreadnoughts, which are the real threats in this list.

Are you building a Purifier list because you think it is the most competitive build or because you've been told it's the most competitive?

My problem with Crowe lists is that you waste the 150 points out of the gate on Crowe, who is not an IC and dies really easily without doing much for you. Could you not get away with similar builds and an army that doesn't see waste?

I have seen lots of lists take advantage of the 5 man Strike Squads in Razors. For the most part, competitive lists run low AV vehicles which means Psybolt Razors can do the trick when they're 3 Twin-linked S7 Heavy bolter shots.

Personally I don't play ultra competitive and am probably not the best judge but a GM can make Purifiers troops, and he's not a complete waste of points on the board as he can join units.

Honestly I don't play the ultra lists because I find them boring and lacking of character, but if your primary reason for playing the game is winning at tournament play, then spamming MSU Psybacks and Psyflemen Dreads is the way to go IMHO.

Matt it is only one way to go

veidin wrote:

svendrex wrote:Purifiers work better as 5 man units. 2x psycannons, 3x Halbers, Rhino or a Razorback (Psy-Heavy bolter or TL-Las or Las/plasfor longer range. You have 24" shooting already)

.

Crowe
10 Strike Marines, 2 cannons, hammer Rhino
7 Purifiers, 2 Cannons, Hammer, 4 Halberds Rhino
7 Purifiers, 2 Cannons, Hammer, 4 Halberds Rhino
5 Purifiers, 2 Cannons, Hammer, 2 Halberds, Psyback
5 Purifiers, 2 Cannons, Hammer, 2 Halberds, Psyback
3 Psyfleman Dreads.

That would leave you with 145 pts to spend. Could bulk out squads, add psybolt ammo, field a Vindicare, etc.

Ok nice list...but waht are my tactical options? no outflank no scout, no nothing.Just straight forward

unbeliever87 wrote:
Haha, what a load of gak. Have a look at this years NOVA results, then tell me, how many of those top table lists use MSU? Here's a hint: All of them do.
I also like how you claim that MSU is gak in tournaments because of kill points but then post a bastardised semi-MSU list with more kill points than the original list, that still manages to bring less firepower than a regular Crowe/Purifier/MSU list does. Way to fail man.

The beautiful part about MSU lists is that even if you do feth up and somehow allow a Dreadnought to assault your troops, the Dreadnought can still only kill a maximum of 5 guys.

Besides making yourself sound like a rediculous POS with demeaning comments Ill be glad to indulge you.

First off NOVA hasnt even happened this year yet. It's in August so fail on your part. Secondly here is the link for the finalists for the PAST years NOVA open. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/311739.page

Tony Kupach won this tournament and he does NOT run MSU. Also many of the other lists were not MSU as well. 2nd fail on your part.

Let's take a look at this years Adepticon results shall we. Here are the finalist lists. http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2011/04/05/adepticon-2011-pseudo-live-40k-champ-army-lists-and-anyalsis/

1 list out of all the finalists was MSU being Reece Robbins a SW player. Once again another reason why MSU can have a hard time in some tournaments as I said. So 3rd fail on your part.

At no point did I say MSU is gak, you decided to put words in my mouth. Next up you claim my list is a bastardised semi MSU list. Well I suppose Tony Kupach's list is a bastardised semi MSU list too even though its not MSU. Do your research.

"Dear 40K Army List form; please stop failing." Maybe spellcheck your signature line too.

veidin wrote:

svendrex wrote:Purifiers work better as 5 man units. 2x psycannons, 3x Halberds, Rhino or a Razorback (Psy-Heavy bolter or TL-Las or Las/plas for longer range. You have 24" shooting already)

Not sure what factual data this is from, but Purifiers do not work better nor worse as a 5 man unit. Plus the build you listed can be tarpitted by a MC/Dread due to the lack of a Hammer. 10 men units can be used to CS into a makeshift Purgation squad with 4 Psycannons if need be or even when together can lay down rediculous fire once midfield and disembarked. 8-16 Str7 Rending shots is nothing to laugh at.

1 squad of 10 purifiers casts Cleansing flame 1 time.

2 squads of 5 cast it twice.

Psycannons on foot will evaporate very fast as they are a high priority target.


You can Hammerhand and wound T8 MC's or Force weapon T7 or less dead with one wound. That is a risk most players do not want.

you can move and shoot at 24". Shoot the dreads that are near you or avoid them. If you are tar pitted by them, it is YOUR FAULT.

The only dreads you will have to wory about are the fast moving BA dreads (transports or Librarian)


GK NEED 36"+ range. You can either take Psy-rifle Dreads or Razorbacks. They are your best options. Most people take the Psy-Rifles

You're right, I meant least years NOVA. I think you posted the wrong link, here's the results page - http://www.baldandscreaming.com/army-lists/results-from-the-nova-open/

Let's look through the winners list, plus the undefeated lists from the first day:
Tony Kopach - Looks pretty MSU to me. Except his Rhino's have 8 men in them, not 6.
Mark Ferek - looks pretty MSU to me.
Andrew Sutton - looks pretty MSU to me.
Samuel Penson - looks pretty MSU to me.
Justin Hilderbrant - Yep, you got me here.

Dont go full MSU, it bleeds kill points and this is why many if not most fail in the tournament scene.

Seems to me like 4/5 of the top lists were MSU in one form or another...I wonder what that could possibly say? That MSU lists are doing well in tournaments? Which is all I was trying to say in the first place.

Also thanks for the english lesson man! It's pretty rediculous that I missed such a simple spelling mistake!

So you don't like my list..ok...fine so what is the best list in 1850-1750 around.What do you have that will win a tournament?

Everybody is a critic but no list.Please do share some super competitive lists

And what about those psykers...nobody wants them>?

Super competitive lists are all in the eyes of the beholder. What could work for one person, will not work for another. Look at the results table again, if a random person picked up many of those lists they would not win a tournament with them straight away.
I would practice with your own list, then you will work out what you like using, and those units would give you the best chance of being competitive. Albeit ask for what other people's opinions on what 'is competitive' to start you off looking in the right direction, but don't right off units or list builds because you saw somebody say they were awful or you can't use them properly.

Everybody is a critic but no list.Please do share some super competitive lists

And what about those psykers...nobody wants them>?

I think it's just because you came out and claimed to have a super competitive build that's, well quite frankly more of a friendly list.

You can really keep alot of what you have, just use it differently.

First off, you need to look at what GK does best-shooting. The main advantages the army has are 1.Cheesy Fortitude 2. Psyfleman 3. Undercosted Psycannons 4. Purifiers 5. Henchman. Those are probably the top things they can field.

HQ: If you don't take Coteaz and don't want to go the Henchman route then Crowe is fine.

Elites: No real need here

Troops: Purifiers in Rhinos. The 5 Man, 2 Psycannon, 3 Halbred, or 2 Halbred, 1 Hammer in Rhino is 189 I think. It's a versatile unit that is tough to stop from shooting and still hits hard enough in CC. Even 1 Purifier wrecks hordes.

FA: No real need here.

HS: Psyfleman x3. They are so undercosted it hurts.

SO:

Crowe-150
Purifiers-189
Purifiers-189
Purifiers-189
Purifiers-189
Psyfleman-135
Psyfleman-135
Psyfleman-135

is 1311 and gives you points to play with.

10 Termies with 2 Psycannons is 450 and an Inquisitor in Termie Armor with DH, Psycannon, and 3 Servo Skulls is 89. Together that gets you 1850 exactly. You still get the Termies for a distraction (I'd probably combat squad them) and you have a more solid force otherwise.

Crowe-150
Purifiers-189
Purifiers-189
Purifiers-189
Purifiers-189
Psyfleman-135
Psyfleman-135
Psyfleman-135

Is basically a solid core. But 2 venerable dreadnoughts are more cost-effective (in survivability -- and hence shooting also -- and Kill Points offered up than 3 ordinary ones). So I would save 15 points and make that switch. the same (contrary to popular perception is true of paladins vs terminators. So I'd put in paladins with 2 psycannon, hammer, stave, sword, 2 halberds at 335 points.

That would make 1631 points, leaving 219 points. Could be another Purifier unit. And a wee bit of master-crafting for some weapons with the residue.. Or a Librarian with stave, shrouding, sanctuary, warp rift, might to go in with the Paladins.

@ Artemo

To squishy MSU ..maybe boost up to 6 at least.
And what is the plan? keep purifiers in transport and advance only 6? or on foot? or 12 and no shooting.
PS: heavy bolter is S6 not 7(with ammo )

Do termies deep strike? no psyhic communication? no skulls?

And waht is your answer against horde? 45 lootas behing 100 boyz in front,PK,maybe GRAZGUL

I was quoting the previous poster who put up a list whose effectiveness is well proven – ie Crowe and MSU Purifiers with dreadnought support. I suggested two modifications to his proposed list, both of which would improve its efficiency.

The single best answer to hordes is in fact MSU Purifiers (as you get more Cleansing Flames).

Paladins have no real fear of deepstriking into terrain so don’t really need skulls. That’s one reason (other than their greater effectiveness per point) why I’d choose them over terminators.

Your psycannon have 24” range. You really only have to move your razorbacks forward once and then disgorge the Purifiers. Then the razorbacks (unlike empty rhinos) are still a threat. I’ve no idea why you brought up the S6 shots for the heavy bolters as I never claimed they were S7.

"And what is your answer against horde? 45 lootas behind 100 boyz in front,PK,maybe GRAZGUL"

.....You are running purifiers man. I am really struggling to understand how you seem to think you cannot deal with horde? Those 45 lootas are killing at best three transports per turn right? If you have 4-5 units of purifiers and psyflemen drawing some fire you should have no problem getting at least one unit into their lines right? You should most often be getting more than one, and that is enough to cripple his horde. This will also apply to nid horde armies and the few dakka bugs they bring for transport popping. As I said before I am confused at how you do not see this so I will explain below how to work a charge with them once you have closed the gap in the first 1-2 rounds.

You drive to roughly 10 inches away from the front of said horde and stop. Pop smoke if available or shoot Psycans if it took 6" or less to get to that distance. Whether the horde armies shooting pops your transport or you lose it to an assault it does not matter. Hell even if you just have to hop out next round you should be assaulting (read burning the gak out of) whatever horde you need to deal with. This is easily done with 5 purifiers. I have seen 1-3 purifiers melt 10-15 orcs and then proceed to swing first killing even more on multiple occasions now. I have personally had three of them kill all but two guys and the nob out of 19 boys+nob with a marine still there to chase them down laughing about it when the melting stopped. Point is you should have NO problems with horde if you can get just 1-2 of your units into their mob.

I stick with my original post that you should be MUCH more worried about an alpha strike list footing your original list in two turns that horde armies. I personally think unbelievers list looked best, but however you change the list I would make it priority one to spread those points/troops out.