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Howdy, everyone! Me and a friend are getting back into WHFB and I pulled a cheesy tactic in our latest game, Skaven vs. Dark Elves. In a 1000 point game I fielded a grey seer and took the dreaded thirteenth spell. Needless to say, Turn 1 I rolled 10 dice for Winds of Magic, threw 8 into the spell, cast with irresistable force, and turned his entire sorceress squad into rats which was basically game there. I understand that magic is supposed to be high risk high reward, but that was just ridiculous (I rolled a 7 on miscast and killed three storm vermin). Is there any sort of change on this spell or counter to this? All I felt after that game was

OK my friend did some research and apparently you can only ever roll 6 power die at once which is good to know. Still, thats a good chance for IF and still have it go off.

The odds of rolling IF on 6 dice is something in the 25% region.

The odds of rolling 21 on 6 dice is pretty good. Something like 58%.

However, I feel it's fine. Firstly, you pretty much need 6 dice to cast dreaded 13th. So if you roll 5 dice or less for the Winds of Magic, you are probably not getting that spell off (barring Warpstone tokens or incredible rolling.)

If you roll something like 6-8 dice, you pretty much aren't getting any other spells off, especially if you roll a little subpar and fail to cast 13th.

Also, that spell has different impacts depending on who you play against. Elite armies like Elves/Chaos Warriors/Saurus? Good return.

Versus Brettonians? Not so much.

Hope that helps!

Zoned

Thank you sir for the response! Yes I see it really effective against elite based armies, but in a small 1000 point game, this spell just seems way to devastating. Sure it will probably be the only spell cast, but if it goes off it will do more than almost any of the other spells combined. Can I even use warpstone to roll more than 6?

Yeah, Warpstone tokens can go above and beyond your six dice limit.

As for the power of it - I agree, it's very powerful, but several things are just *too* good at low points levels. Take the humble Empire mortar. For ~70pts it will rule the battlefield at low points values, especially when you take three of them. WHFB is very well balanced (relative to 40k, for example) but it would be exceptionally difficult to balance it at all points levels. I think things become sensible around 2000pts or so.

Where does is say that Warpstone tokens can go above the six dice limit?

To the OP:

I actually find that Scorch does a similar amount of damage for 10+ to cast. Think about it: Dreaded 13th kills an average of 14 models.

Scorch is a small blast. If you hit a block of spearmen/blackguard/executioners/crossbowmen...etc assuming he has about 20 of them, you should hit about 18 of them. Wounding on threes and a 6+ save means you should kill about 10. If he takes a bigger block (say 25+) you're likely to kill 12.

Again, pretty similar kills...for 10+ to cast.

Because warpstone tokens dont count as powerdice, mainly. they just add to the total rolled.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because warpstone tokens dont count as powerdice, mainly. they just add to the total rolled.

Yes, this. Same as Goblin mushrooms... think there are one or two others about the place, too. Can't think of them off the top of my head though.

Zoned wrote:Where does is say that Warpstone tokens can go above the six dice limit?

The skaven army book.

Zoned wrote:Where does is say that Warpstone tokens can go above the six dice limit?

To the OP:

I actually find that Scorch does a similar amount of damage for 10+ to cast. Think about it: Dreaded 13th kills an average of 14 models.

Scorch is a small blast. If you hit a block of spearmen/blackguard/executioners/crossbowmen...etc assuming he has about 20 of them, you should hit about 18 of them. Wounding on threes and a 6+ save means you should kill about 10. If he takes a bigger block (say 25+) you're likely to kill 12.

Again, pretty similar kills...for 10+ to cast.

Heh. I actually scorched that unit first to make sure 13th would finish it off. Killed 8 with the scorch. Alright then. Thank you guys very much for the responses

Walked my nephew through his first game the other day him playing my skaven against me and my Ogres and he crack's call and killed my Bruiser general and another ogre. Skaven magic is very effective.

Let me make it clear that I play Skaven. So I would love it if warpstone tokens didn't count as Power Dice (thus allowing me to roll 7+ dice at a spell.)

So I do hope you convince me that they do not count.

I'll post the relevant rules:

"For each token consumed, a Wizard can add a single dice to his casting effort. These dice are added to the normal power dice."

To me, it isn't clear that it is not a Power Dice. It says "added to the normal power dice," which to me means that they are like abnormal power dice.

Also, if they aren't Power Dice, does this mean that they can't trigger Irresistable Force? The latter section in the Token rules don't say can or cannot cause IF. I roll separately for this dice in case it wounds me, but if it rolls a "6" by your definition it cannot contribute towards IF either. Is that correct?

Zoned

PS: Reading the rulebook FAQ, it specifically states that the Night Goblin magic mushroom dice do not count as Power Dice. I'll have to check the wording on it tomorrow and see if it is similar to Warpstone Tokens.

Ok i was wrong it's not in the skaven book it's in the FAQ.

Page 108 – Warpstone Tokens, third paragraph
Ignore “although this does allow users to roll more dice than is
normally allowed by their level.”

Clearly making you right.

HoverBoy wrote:Ok i was wrong it's not in the skaven book it's in the FAQ.

Page 108 – Warpstone Tokens, third paragraph
Ignore “although this does allow users to roll more dice than is
normally allowed by their level.”

Clearly making you right.

I saw this too, I thought they just removed this because it was a reference to 7th ed rules?

Since it refers to "allowed by there level" and with no level cap on how many dice a wizard can throw, i'm having a hard time thinking this changes the thought of warpstone tokens being power dice.