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Ok this came up in a game a couple of days ago and I wanted to get some opinions on it.

Say you have a ruin that through it's construction has a part of it you cannot physically get a model into (in the case in point the entire ground floor had all four sides on it) are you allowed to say that models are in this area? Are you allowed to place the objective there? If there are also models on the upper floor how do you know where your models are for the purposes of templates,blasts and the like?

I let my opponent do this (wish I hadn't put his entire army in one building with the objective and didn't come out all game) but now I'm wondering whether it was right.

It is up to the players to determine if the terrain is passable or not. This has to be done before the game begins.

If the terrain is passable, you do not have to be physically capable of placing a model on it. Just use WMS and use best judgement.

It is up to you and your opponent to agree on terrain before the game.
If the ruin is not declared impassable, then yes objectives and troops can be placed there.
If they won't physically fit there, you would have to fall back on wobbly model syndrome.
In the case of a ruin with 4 intact walls, it would probably be easier to declare those particular walls to be impassable.

EDIT-Nice Ninja Grakmar!

It would be infinitely easier to just declare that section of the ruins as a building you can embark. There are rules pertaining to buildings with troops in them, so just count it that way.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:It would be infinitely easier to just declare that section of the ruins as a building you can embark. There are rules pertaining to buildings with troops in them, so just count it that way.

-cgmckenzie

In which case you would need to declare access points, fire points and troop capacity.

I will direct you to page 83 "moving within ruins"

"only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and ONLY IF THE MODEL CAN PHYSICALLY BE PLACED THERE. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

Now as for melting through walls and stuff, you have to decide how that will work before the game. The ability to actually physically place a model somewhere is huge though. Always discuss and define all terrain pre-game or you'll run into a lot of issues. A lot of people still want to play terrain in a very abstract way and it really doesn't mesh well with 5th ed and real line of sight.

cgmckenzie wrote:It would be infinitely easier to just declare that section of the ruins as a building you can embark.

I would think it would be easier still to just declare that part of the Ruin as impassable, myself, but whatever floats your squig.

Squig floating might help in this situation...

You don't have to decide how ruins work for moving through them, the rules clearly state that you can move through them as long as you rolled for difficult terrain. They elaborate by saying it is to represent the models bashing through the walls or hurdling over them to get to cover.

For cover, however, ruins do use LOS unless you say before hand that you are using blanket area terrain rules for it.

-cgmckenzie

Actually CGM the rules tell you to decide if you can go through the "walls" of ruins or not, even with a DT test. The default is you can do so, but you can agree differently.

The default of everything can be changed by agreeing differently. RAW, you barrel through them.

-cgmckenzie

Actualy not the "default", it is one of the things about terrain they require you to agree on before the game starts.

RAW if you havent discussed terrain you have broken a rule, and that includes discussion of ruin walls.

Pg 14 BGB "Note that as part of their move through difficult terrain, models may move through (assorted terrain here) unless the players have agreed that a certain wall or obstacle is impassable."

That sounds pretty 'default' to me. It is like this unless you change it, just like any other rule in the book.

-cgmckenzie

That's the default for regular terrain. Ruins have their own rules.

cgmckenzie wrote:Pg 14 BGB "Note that as part of their move through difficult terrain, models may move through (assorted terrain here) unless the players have agreed that a certain wall or obstacle is impassable."

That sounds pretty 'default' to me. It is like this unless you change it, just like any other rule in the book.

-cgmckenzie

Walls, doors and lateral thinking, page 83

Where I told you to look (the ruins rules)

Pg 83 says that the normal terrain rules apply but it is equally acceptable to change them to fit specific scenarios/layouts if you desire. The only rule for discussing terrain with your opponent is classifying them before hand, eg pointing out what is a ruin and what is a rolling hill.

If you simply classify it as a ruin and carry on, it defaults to the difficult terrain rule for moving through walls in difficult terrain.

-cgmckenzie

pointing out what is a ruin and what is a rolling hill.

There are no rules for "rolling hills". I actually prefer the rules that the Dallas GT used: Everything on the board is area terrain with 4+ cover save. Done. Simple, easy to follow.

And misses the point in variability of terrain, and has hills as area terrain which is, frankly, stupid. 4th ed era stupid.

Rolling hills is the term we use at my FLGS for terrain that only effects elevation. It is clear terrain with elevation differences, like a 1 inch.Styrofoam board on the tabletop with rounded or sloped edges.

-cgmckenzie