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Well, I am finally back in action. Ever since the computer was stolen, I haven't been too active on Dakka-Dakka. But finally, I can post a revise Army list (since I lost the oldone too.....) So, please, give all the advice you wish to give!

352nd Armored Division “Emperor’s Hammer”
2000 point Army

HEADQUARTERS

Lord Commissar— Bolt Gun + Carapace Armor = 80 points

Company Command Squad— Regimental Standard + Missile Launcher Heavy Weapons Team + Vox Caster + Company Commander has Boltgun = 97 points

ELITES
Storm Trooper Squad—Storm Trooper Sergeant has Boltgun + Two Melta Storm troopers = 105 points

TROOPS
Platoon Command Squad—Lascannon Heavy Weapons Team = 50 points

Infantry Squad—Chimera with free Heavy Flamer + Commissar + Plasma Gun Guardsman + Commissar has Boltpistol = 157 points

Infantry Squad—Chimera withHeavy Flamer + Commissar + Plasma Gun Guardsman = 155 points

Infantry Squad—Chimera with Heavy Flamer + Plasma Gun Guardsman + Vox Caster + Sergeant has Boltpistol = 127 points

Veteran Squad—Chimera with Heavy Flamer + two Meltagun Veterans + Heavy Flamer Veteran + Vox Caster + Veteran Sergeant has Boltpistol = 172 points

Veteran Squad—Chimera with Heavy Flamer + two Plasma Gun Veterans + Heavy Flamer Veteran + Veteran Sergeant has Boltpistol = 177 points

Heavy Weapons Team—upgraded to 3 Auto-cannons = 75 points

FAST ATTACK

Vendetta Gunship –130 points

Devil Dog-- Multi-Melta = 135 points

HEAVY SUPPORT

Lemun Russ Battle Tank—Hull Lascannon = 165 points

Lemun Russ Battle Tank—Hull Lascannon = 165 points

Basilisk—Heavy Flamer + Heavy Stubber = 135 points

Hydra Flak Tank—Heavy Flamer = 75 points

Now, the idea is to use orders often for one, hence vox casters. The Lord Commissar is there to give leadership to either the heavy weapons team or the infantry squad without a Commissar, depending on the need. The Infantry squad without a commissar is more for holding objectives on my side of the table, screening heavy weapins teams, or a last ditch reserve. The CCS and PCS add to the gunline, while the Hydra and Basalisk provide artillery support. The Leman Russes, Hellhound, and Vendetta are my armored support, the Vendetta being mostly a air support unit. In a ditch, it can drop in the Stormtroopers or some other unit. I was thinking about dropping the Standard and the Heavy Flamers on the Vterans, but, knowing I suck as CC, like the Heavy Flamers to at least maul someone before they get too close. I am mostly a mobile, armored striker that relies on my guns before my fists in this aspect.

I await your replies and comments!

I have two things to say without going into too many details. First, I suggest you re-read your Imperial Guard Codex. Specifically, the FOC and the vox/orders section. Next, you are taking far too many upgrades on many units. I suggest that you check out some other lists floating around the net. Read lots as lots of them to get a good grasp of guard as many lists are full of it.

Voxes don't work for units inside chimeras. Orders are really for foot lists. Drop all the voxes.

Hybrid lists can be quite difficult to balance and I think you are having trouble here.

Firstly, don't mix weapon types in a unit - for instance a vet squad with flamer and melta is going to want to shoot at different targets.

Standard not really worth it in the CSS - take some special weapons instead. LC needs to babysit the HWS - but if you're running him I think you need at least 2 if not 3 HWS to make him worthwhile.

Commissars on chimera bound infantry is not worth it - if they do come out the 10 men are pretty squishy. Save commissars for power blobs when there's 20 or 30 in a unit.

Drop stubber on the basilisk, points can be better spent elsewhere.

Whilst I agree with most of ruminator's points, I disagree about the utility of the HF, twin melta vets. I run two of them in outflanking Valks, and they have turned the tide of a battle more than once. Sure, they'll never outcompete a specialised unit, but they're very versatile, and there in lies their strength.

Unless your heart's set on it, I would say drop the Devil Dog and bring in another Valk instead. Pop your vets in the Valks, and lose the Chimeras. Spend your saved points on another Basilisk if you can. Twin Bassies are liquid death, if you keep them safe.

I actually did readd my math several times to see if I was doing something wrong and I do believe I am still doing something wrong with that math. I do know Vox Casters don't work in Chimeras, but those Chimeras aren't invincible and there will more than liklely get knocked out at some point. For the most part, the Chimera is to get them where I want them to be and then provide gunfire support. So, the Vox Casters can be handy. Also, I run Commissars for the reason Leadership--I have been screw over and over one poor leadership and that 9 is very handy. And should I need CC (I pray I don't) the Commissar will buy time.

Also, a lot of the boltguns are free in my Codex and I know it's 5th Addition.

How about I drop the vendetta and use the points for a second Basilisk? After all, they can direct fire. I wasn't too sure I wanted the Vendetta at first, but I figured it might make good air support. More Basilisk killing sounds quite nice...

The Standard isn't worth anything? I mean, it does also allow freindly units within 12" to re-roll all failed morale and pinning tests...

I can see the point in all or nothing, but I like the versatility of the melta/heavy flamer veterans.

Thanks for all the advice. I'll see what I can do work out a list I like that also works well. I'm kind of trying to avoid the cookie-cutter here, heh.

that's...a very busy list ...i never use hvy flamers cause it's a hvy 1 meaning you can't move and shoot it..... so = useless. if you really wanna take flamers just take normals. not sure whats up with all the commisars other then power blobs they kinda useless. You got a good start just read more lists and you'll get the feel of it

dinnermeat wrote:that's...a very busy list ...i never use hvy flamers cause it's a hvy 1 meaning you can't move and shoot it..... so = useless. if you really wanna take flamers just take normals. not sure whats up with all the commisars other then power blobs they kinda useless. You got a good start just read more lists and you'll get the feel of it

The Heavy flamer is a assault 1 weapon, so there is no problem with the move and shoot.


What I really like with this list is that it does not look like every other list. Tanks and artillery for the win!

/

Actually, the bigger problem I see for you is when your chimeras get blown up, your banking alot on that 5+ armor save. Every one gets wounded, so each guy with unique load outs has to make a save... you can't roll 10 saves and pick who your losing. Sure, the two PISs with Commissars get Stubborn so they ignore the wound penalties (if the Commissar lives), but none of the others will. At Ld 9 with 5 kills (if your lucky) is still a 4, even if you are within 12" of that Standard. They are going to run.

At the core, your list is fine. The Voxs are indeed a waste because the troops will probably not survive the destruction of their ride. I am not sure a Lord Commissar is needed for one HWS. Either get another HWS or two or ditch the Lord.
The bolt pistols and the like are a good use for left over points, but you have special weapon slots empty. You also have a empty transport (Vendetta). I suggest put the PCS and give it a heavy flamer and 3 flamers. Use it to contest enemy objectives or burn out weak troops holding it.

Basilisk is eh, because it is open topped and scatters. You also really have nothing back there to protect it. An AC HWS is almost as effective as the Hydra, and 'Bring it Down!' makes it more effective.

If you had two HWSs and a HWT in that CCS, I could see Creed and a Lord Commissar or Kell working very well in your list, if you could get the points for them.

Good luck!

Yes, I do take some risk with this list--the Basilisk, while able to Direct Fire, can scatter and be a serious problem. I know I will be risking lots of saves, so I might drop a few things and get Carapace armor to in case survivability for this mobilty army (well, mostly mobile!) I'm also dropping the Vendetta. Useless for what I want in mind. I'll either get a second basilisk, a Hell Hound....who knows. Also, the Basilisk has HWT's and Hydra's to cover it. I could also make it closed topped.

Everyone says drop the Vox Casters, but I would really like to give them a try and see how they work for me. And I really like the Lord Commissar--he might be a flaw, but all list have flaws by design even....he just happens to be mine. Besides, he's going to bet attached where ever I might need him.

Tempting to make the PCS all flamers, but I figured they'd be more useful as a gunline member.

Like someone mentioned eariler (Hermie, I think), I am trying to avoid cookie cutters. I'll post a second list after some points shifting and see what I get.

It certainly is a unique list, kudos to using bolters and bolt pistols in a guard army, they can be surprisingly good for 2 points.

I would drop the Lord Commissar and take another CCS with either 3x Melta or 4x Grenade Launchers, simply because your army is mostly meched up so the LD10 bubble won't really count, whereas another CCS doubles the amount of orders you have and provides decent fire support.

If you can find the points, it might be worth giving both CCS Chimeras too, as they are command vehicles and can help out guys who tumble out of their own Chimeras and increases their survivability.

Hm. Highly tempting. As it stands, here is a slightly redone list.

352nd Armored Division “Emperor’s Hammer”

2000 point Army

HEADQUARTERS

Lord Commissar—Free Bolt Gun + Carapace Armor = 80 points

Company Command Squad—Regimental Standard + Missile Launcher Heavy Weapons Team + Vox Caster + Company Commander has Boltgun + Master of Ordnance = 127 points

ELITES

Storm Trooper Squad—Storm Trooper Sergeant has free Boltgun + Two Melta Storm troopers = 105 points

TROOPS

Platoon Command Squad—Lascannon Heavy Weapons Team = 50 points

Infantry Squad—Chimera with free Heavy Flamer + Commissar + Plasma Gun Guardsman + Commissar has Boltpistol = 157 points

Infantry Squad—Chimera with free Heavy Flamer + Commissar + Plasma Gun Guardsman = 155 points

Infantry Squad—Chimera with Free Heavy Flamer + Plasma Gun Guardsman + Vox Caster + Sergeant has Boltpistol = 127 points

Veteran Squad—Chimera with free Heavy Flamer + two Meltagun Veterans + Heavy Flamer Veteran + Vox Caster + Veteran Sergeant has Boltpistol = 172 points

Veteran Squad—Chimera with free Heavy Flamer + two Plasma Gun Veterans + Heavy Flamer Veterran + Veteran Sergeant has Boltpistol = 177 points

Heavy Weapons Team—upgraded to 3 Auto-cannons = 75 points

Heavy Weapons Team—upgraded to Lascannons = 105 points

FAST ATTACK

Devil Dog—Multi-Melta = 135 points

HEAVY SUPPORT

Lemun Russ Battle Tank—Hull Lascannon = 165 points

Lemun Russ Battle Tank—Hull Lascannon = 165 points

Basilisk—free Heavy Flamer + Heavy Stubber = 135 points

Hydra Flak Tank—free Heavy Flamer = 75 points

I would take that stubber off of the Basilisk and give your PCS two meltas, dropping the Lascannon to a AC to get the other 10pts. That BS 3 one shot is eh, while 2 shots means you have a 75% chance to get at least 1 hit. I still flamer them out due to the BS 3 and use them to take enemy held objectives or to mop up infantry behind your other units moving up.

You know, you keep saying cookie cutter... but nothing is more cookie cutter in IG than melta vets in Chimeras and full heavy slots. Your fighting a uphill battle because you /know/ you have a heavy flamer on those Chimeras, you know you can only fire one weapon on them if you move 6". The heavy flamers in your Vet squads are neat, but your effectively wasting a BS 4 shot and 5-10pts. There is a reason why the Vets get offered the heavy Flamer and the PISs don't... that is the trade off.

There is a difference between being efficient with your resources and being 'cookie cutter'. Besides, your list is a fairly standard hybred list of gunline/mech assault. If you had nothing but artillery in your heavy slots, your list would be a leaf blower. Move Chimeras 6", fire...rinse, repeat.

To be honest, be glad your doing IG, it is one of the most versital codexs out there and incredibly balanced. You have to work to make assault IG, but even they are a possibility and can win. Do not be confused by the term cookie cutter or feel bad if your list mirrors one of several established lists... there is a reason why there are a good solid half dozen 'standard tactics' on IG use and they all can win.

Your base list is solid, but I have a couple of general rules... never waste a special weapon slot in IG, never waste transport space, and make best use of your BS you can.

That's correct--there's a difference between effective and fair and cookie cutters. I actually like burning things, hence the Flamers on tanks...plus it helps they are free, heh.

It's very hard to walk the fine line between cookie cuter, something you like, and different. I know somethings will ALWAYS been standard in all armies. And i like the IG due to the fact I can feel closest to them. The Lord Commissatr is actually there as a slight fluff reason for my backstory on the Division--he is me on the battlefeild. So, I'll try my best to go with a realisitic list that can be fun AND compietive and something I enjoy and like. That's the goal of every army (that's what I think it should be anyways.)

People keep telling me to drop the Vox Casters too, that they are useless. Same with the Standard. Hopefully, I can make them work for me. Nothing is usless after all, right?

I am always for more autocannons. I certainly didn't think about that for the PCS--excellent idea. I was thinking more anti-tank, but from what I understand, autocannons can really maul lighter vehicles. And I'll drop the stubber...although it's going to be sad to take it off the tank. Maybe I can make another Stubber tripod weapon for fun.

Thanks for the advice everyone, though. It's been helpful all the way.

Well, the thing about ACs is the Str 7. When Armor Values top at 14 and most transports are AV 12 or less, that Str 7 + 1d6 with 2 shots gives you a good chance to pop that transport (if you can hit).

I can honestly say the 2 best heavy weapons for IG are Lascannons and ACs for long range Anti Tank/Anti Vehicle. Heavy bolters are ok, but limited to really only infantry and are only 1 shot better than the AC, but the AC has more versitility because of the higher Str. The Missile Launcher is usally a solid weapon, but for 5pts more than the AC, 1 shot Str 8 vs 2 shots Str 7 or 1 shot Str 9. The krak is weaker than the Lascannon and you need a 6 to glance AV 14, so you end up using it on the same targets you would use the AC on... which has more shots and is cheaper. You use Lascannons on AV 12+ and ACs on AV 12-.

As long as you understand your limitations on your list, then that is great. Keep the flamers and the voxs. The Standard can be useful in the right list, but again if you insist, go for it.

Keep your CCS and Lord Commissar near your HWSs and use 'Bring it Down!' on both against vehicles or MCs to make them twin linked. I would get camo cloaks for your CCS and place all of them in cover to give you covering fire. Enjoy the BS 4 on the CCS too. But if they are within 12" of those HWSs and those HWSs are withing 6" of the Lord, you will have a effective little fire base. I like doing it with Creed and it works really slick.

Yeah, the way you explain that makes Autocannons sound excellent. I'll likely drop the Missile Launcher then and get more auto-cannons! Then I can use the last 5 points for either another Vox Caster or maybe some Melta Bombs.

Thanks once again for the tips BlkTom. Hell, thanks for tips from everyone so far. Regardless of if I haven't agreed or not, they did make me think on things to make a better list I still like.