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I am starting black templars to run instead or my daemons. So does anyone have any advice on a good starting 1500 pt army. I need tactical advice and list making advice.

Well, the guaranteed first thing you need is the Emperor's Champion model. He's awesome anyway, so don't feel bad about making him your first purchase

BT have some really good "Shooty" builds. You can either go for shooty tanks or shooty infantry. (your close combat ability is an added bonus)


1) Shooty Tank list

Vindicators with EA and PotMS [they can move 12" and shoot and are immune to shaken and stunned results]
Typhoon Land Speeders [cheap, can fire 2 S8 shots when moving 12" or 2 blasts and the HB]
Venerable Dread [Lascannon, ML, Tank hunters. You get S10 shots with the LC against vehicles]
Deathwind Drop Pod [same cost as a rhino, but shoots a S5 Large Blast on the turn you land. Can also shoot while shaken or stunned with PotMS]

With this sort of build you only need to take the Emp Champ as your HQ. It can also do well going all reserves as you can move fast and shoot with the tanks, and the pods can arrive anywhere they are needed.


2) Shooty Infantry (ie. terminator spam)

Terminators OR Terminator command squads can take 2 heavy weapons in a 5 man squad and get tank hunters. 4 S9 shots at 48" or 8 S7 rending shots at 24" with the ability to move and shoot.
Crusader squads [5 man] can take a las cannon AND a plasma gun and then sit and shoot.

A Marshal is needed here as you have to take Target Prioriity tests when shooting at any target other than the closest.




The "Classic" BT lists are either the Black Horde [20 man crusader squads hoofing it] or Land Raider Spam. Neither of those list are well suited to 5th edition. [limited ablity to take out transports and tanks, massed meltaguns]

Get at least 2 units of space marines, buy the templar upgrade kit, and buy a box of assault termies, give them lightning claws furious charge Can't go wrong with a landraider crusader either, but that bits negotiatable.

svendrex wrote:
A Marshal is needed here as you have to take Target Prioriity tests when shooting at any target other than the closest.

Target priority was discontinued in the FAQ. You don't need to worry about a Marshal with this build.

If you want some good old fashion choppy,

Foot slogging initiates with neophytes and a chaplain.

In the BT codex regular marines are called Initiates and scouts are Neophytes, they're the "not yet Templar" Templar.

Basically when your unit gets shot up take out the neophytes, and use Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds. it grants Preferred Enemy to everyone against everything.

So to buy you will need

Emperors Champion (Mandatory past 750p I believe)

Lots of marines

Even more neophytes (no more than you have marines though)

A venerable dread or two.

Dreads: Venerable dreads with a TL lascanon and ML are nasty with Tank Hunter.

Landspeeders are dirt cheap with typhoon missile launchers.

Chaplains, invest in them.

timetowaste85 wrote:

svendrex wrote:
A Marshal is needed here as you have to take Target Prioriity tests when shooting at any target other than the closest.

Target priority was discontinued in the FAQ. You don't need to worry about a Marshal with this build.

False. Not much else to say, target priority is still in effect.

Ah, yes. Thanks for the heads up. Only skimmed quickly and saw "Ignore" and "Target priority." Not the rest of the statement. He's right, they still have their own target priority.

Drop Pods. My BT opponent runs 5 of them. his Initiatesa are instantly in my face, assaulting turn 2, and theres nothing i can do about it. It's the only army in my gaming group that i have never beaten.

As mentioned, pick up the Emperor's Champion. He's needed, yes, but he's awesome so it makes up for the need.

Land Speeders. Something I wish I had more of myself. Thanks to the FAQ, they are amazing, cheap, and reliable.

Pick up at least one dreadnought.

You'll want infantry, so pick up some. I personally just picked up the Space Marine Battle Box and used those plus a command squad to make up my 2K infantry. Just make sure you don't put the jump packs on the assault marines as templar assault marines are horrible.

You'll want tanks. I'd suggest probably two land raiders, some vindicators, and razorbacks / rhinos. This will allow you to vary your list enough to make things interesting for you.

Terminators are awesome, especially for the Templar. We get veteran skills like Furious Charge and Tank Hunter

It really comes down to what style you want to play. Right now, the most competitive version of the templars is more of a shooting army, where as fluff would want you to have a close combat oriented force. Close combat templars can be fun thanks to Accept Any Challenge No Matter the Odds, but still lacks in comparison to the shooting, thanks to the abundance of Cyclone Missile Launcher availability and Tank Hunter veteren skill.

Overall, I personally enjoy Land Raider spam at 1500 points. It's hilarious to drop 3 Land Raider Crusaders and 3 Vindicators at 1500 points, even if it's not the most competitive due to melta weapon spam from other armies. Realistically, for a competitive 1500 point list, this is what you'll be looking at:

HQ - 110
Emperor's Champion
-Abhor the Witch

Troops - 435
5x Initiates
- Melta Gun
-Dedicated Drop Pod

5x Initiates
- Melta Gun
-Dedicated Drop Pod

5x Initiates
- Melta Gun
-Dedicated Drop Pod

Elite - 168
Dreadnought
- TL Lascannon
- Missile Launcher
- Venerable
- Tank Hunter
- Smoke Launchers

Fast Attack - 280
2x Land Speeder Typhoon

2x Land Speeder Typhoon

Heavy Support - 489
Vindicator
- Extra Armor
- Power of the Machine Spirit
- Smoke Launchers

Vindicator
- Extra Armor
- Power of the Machine Spirit
- Smoke Launchers

Vindicator
- Extra Armor
- Power of the Machine Spirit
- Smoke Launchers

Total = 1482

This is a variation of the 1500 point list I used a few weeks back and did quite well with. Though my area is far from overly competitive, so ymmv

UNREALPwnage wrote:I am starting black templars to run instead or my daemons. So does anyone have any advice on a good starting 1500 pt army. I need tactical advice and list making advice.

Well, if you're looking for playing competitively, then I offer up my website, Implausible Nature. I'm all about getting the extra mileage out of the codex and I've been playing them since the very beginning. Just remember that because I play competitively, I do everything fully optimized/efficient/redundant (with some exceptions). I'm not afraid to tell my readers that a certain army type is crap in a tournament setting. No sense spending hard earned money on something that will not win games, if that is what you're in it for.

With that being said, even if you don't follow my list ideologies (some people disagree with them), the tactical and general list building advice should help you in all of your games. Use what you want and leave the rest. My way isn't for everyone, but it definitely helps to have another perspective. Also, you'll notice that my lists are tuned for 2k points. Most of the time, its not a problem to scale down something. If you have questions, feel free to pop me an email.

Good luck to you!

EDIT: Clarifications

msteward wrote:Drop Pods. My BT opponent runs 5 of them. his Initiatesa are instantly in my face, assaulting turn 2, and theres nothing i can do about it. It's the only army in my gaming group that i have never beaten.

Well, one thing you could do about it is to realise that Templar pods don't have Drop Pod Assault and as such can't deep strike before round 2.

Marshal Laeroth wrote:

UNREALPwnage wrote:I am starting black templars to run instead or my daemons. So does anyone have any advice on a good starting 1500 pt army. I need tactical advice and list making advice.

Well, if you're looking for playing competitively, then I offer up my website, Implausible Nature. I'm all about getting the extra mileage out of the codex and I've been playing them since the very beginning. Just remember that because I play competitively, I do everything fully optimized/efficient/redundant (with some exceptions). I'm not afraid to tell my readers that a certain army type is crap in a tournament setting. No sense spending hard earned money on something that will not win games, if that is what you're in it for.

With that being said, even if you don't follow my list ideologies (some people disagree with them), the tactical and general list building advice should help you in all of your games. Use what you want and leave the rest. My way isn't for everyone, but it definitely helps to have another perspective. Also, you'll notice that my lists are tuned for 2k points. Most of the time, its not a problem to scale down something. If you have questions, feel free to pop me an email.

Good luck to you!

EDIT: Clarifications

Some constructive criticism: I read through most of the 101 and the Black Templar codex review linked from there. You go into great detail about which units to use and what to do with them once you hit the battlefield, but you never actually tell the reader why you use that particular unit or upgrade. Sure, that land speeder is dirt cheap, I can see that. But why the HB and not the MM? Why assault cannons on the terminators if Cyclone Missile Launchers are beyond awesome? Why use a Lascannon over a Rocket Launcher for troops? When use a Razorback over a Rhino and why?
You probably know what you are doing and why those things are better than the rest, but as someone without any BT(or even MEQ) experience, I don't have any rules of thumb if I want to stray from the lists you suggest. If you'd say, for example, that lascannons are always better than rockets, because there is no other AP2 in the list and 2+ saves give BT trouble in general, that would help. You made good points for when to use Landraider Crusaders and why, but that information is missing for most other units/upgrades.

Otherwise, great read

As it so happens, I'm currently in the process of making revisions to the BT 101 guide, partially with the suggestions you just gave. Several of my readers have made comments about that very thing. It just hasn't gone live yet.

I very much appreciate the feedback!

Marshal Laeroth wrote:As it so happens, I'm currently in the process of making revisions to the BT 101 guide, partially with the suggestions you just gave. Several of my readers have made comments about that very thing. It just hasn't gone live yet.

I very much appreciate the feedback!

I have also read your site and I struggle with making 1850 lists following your lead. I also would love to see at least one truly competitive close combat list but I'm not sure that's even possible. Also, it's very difficult to follow your site if you're new to the game because of all of the acronyms you use. It would help if it was written more for people who don'e know anything about the game.

All in all, I've leaned heavily on your advice and it's been super helpful even if i lose constantly.

Smegmalicious wrote:All in all, I've leaned heavily on your advice and it's been super helpful even if i lose constantly.

Ack! We cannot have that! Feel free to email me if you have any specific questions or advice. I normally tune my lists to 2000 points, because that is what I play (and is the most common tournament limit in the USA), but that doesn't mean I can't do smaller. Its an opportunity I have with IN because not everyone plays at 2k points, so I mean to address it sometime in the near future.

Smegmalicious wrote:I have also read your site and I struggle with making 1850 lists following your lead. I also would love to see at least one truly competitive close combat list but I'm not sure that's even possible. Also, it's very difficult to follow your site if you're new to the game because of all of the acronyms you use. It would help if it was written more for people who don'e know anything about the game.

As it happens, about 3-4 weeks ago, I added an acronym page to define many of the terms that I used on the website. It was a complaint that I've started getting recently and obviously, if people weren't understanding the material, I needed to correct the problem.

However, regarding the CC-oriented list. I've gotten several lists on my blog that are very close to competitive, but they don't quite have what it takes to bring them to tournament winning capabilities. Unfortunately, its a flaw in the codex itself and isn't from lack of trying to make something work. Focusing on CC with the Black Templars as your primary game plan simply doesn't work. They don't have the tools needed to succeed on that front, at least when you are relying on it to win you games. I've had great success with MSU-styled lists that use PotMS heavily, but the CC in those lists are purely in a secondary role. And it is in that role that the BT does CC best, in my opinion.

Marshal Laeroth wrote:

Smegmalicious wrote:All in all, I've leaned heavily on your advice and it's been super helpful even if i lose constantly.

Ack! We cannot have that! Feel free to email me if you have any specific questions or advice. I normally tune my lists to 2000 points, because that is what I play (and is the most common tournament limit in the USA), but that doesn't mean I can't do smaller. Its an opportunity I have with IN because not everyone plays at 2k points, so I mean to address it sometime in the near future.

Smegmalicious wrote:I have also read your site and I struggle with making 1850 lists following your lead. I also would love to see at least one truly competitive close combat list but I'm not sure that's even possible. Also, it's very difficult to follow your site if you're new to the game because of all of the acronyms you use. It would help if it was written more for people who don'e know anything about the game.

As it happens, about 3-4 weeks ago, I added an acronym page to define many of the terms that I used on the website. It was a complaint that I've started getting recently and obviously, if people weren't understanding the material, I needed to correct the problem.

However, regarding the CC-oriented list. I've gotten several lists on my blog that are very close to competitive, but they don't quite have what it takes to bring them to tournament winning capabilities. Unfortunately, its a flaw in the codex itself and isn't from lack of trying to make something work. Focusing on CC with the Black Templars as your primary game plan simply doesn't work. They don't have the tools needed to succeed on that front, at least when you are relying on it to win you games. I've had great success with MSU-styled lists that use PotMS heavily, but the CC in those lists are purely in a secondary role. And it is in that role that the BT does CC best, in my opinion.

That brutal truth article is brutal to read. I'm going to go cry now.

As already said, I'd consider small Termie squads with 2 cyclones each; you can take five of them which is more advisable in large pt games.

wuestenfux wrote:As already said, I'd consider small Termie squads with 2 cyclones each; you can take five of them which is more advisable in large pt games.

Hehe nevermind...

Here is my current list, how does it look? What else can i do to make the army stronger? Any good painting guides out there?