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This came up in a game last night. 3 Space marines were hiding in a ruin at the ground level, on an objective. The side facing me had no windows so I had no LOS and they all had an floor covering them up completely from above.

I tried to fire my MoO at him (he had no target left anyway) in the hopes of scattering just a few inches so that the center hole would hit the ground level and thus hitting the marines. My opponent argued that I cannot do this since the original placement of the blast couldn't hit any models because the blast would hit the top level of the building. We fired anyway and of course scattered way too far anyway. But I do wonder was this allowed. Could you have a barrage of say 2 basilisks firing at a target like this and hope both blasts roll a hit so you can place the second blast marker in such a way that the center hole is on the ground level covering the marines or was my opponent right with that the original blast can't hit any models and thus preventing me from placing the blast marker at all?

Ordnance weapons always hit the highest level the hole ends up over, so if there was clear sky above the marines they may be hit.

I believe that you could try to "hit with a miss" in that circumstance. Nothing is stopping you firing at the marines, even if you can't hurt them. A miss could move it enough so that it hits the ground floor. It isn't a great tacticc but I can't see anything wrong with it.

I checked this last night for another thread. When you fire ordnance barrage at a squad in ruins, you will always hit the top floor, even if you scatter to hang over the edge. If they are under the ruin, there is nothing you can do to get them with OB.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:I checked this last night for another thread. When you fire ordnance barrage at a squad in ruins, you will always hit the top floor, even if you scatter to hang over the edge. If they are under the ruin, there is nothing you can do to get them with OB.

-cgmckenzie

Barrage weapons strike the highest level that is under the hole, so if the shot scatters, and the hole is now on the ground floor then the blast would no longer be hitting the top flloor.

But when you declare you are firing at the ruins, you place the blast marker over the squad of marines and the hole is on the top floor. Blast weapons can only hit the declared floor, even if it scatters off it.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:But when you declare you are firing at the ruins, you place the blast marker over the squad of marines and the hole is on the top floor. Blast weapons can only hit the declared floor, even if it scatters off it.

-cgmckenzie

Which contradicts the barrage rules.

Assume your firing at unit A next to a ruin. The shot scatter into the ruin, where unit B is sitting, with a roof over its head. Are you saying the shot would indeed hit unit B? As the shot can only hit the declared floor? So... bypassing the barrage specific rules to hit a unit that shouldn't be hit? Or are we to follow the barrage specific rules that say the shot hits the floor the hole it over?

When you originally declared the shot in your example, it was outside the ruin, and therefore had no 'floors' to declare the target. Once it is at the final spot, if the hole is above the top floor it hits the top.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:When you originally declared the shot in your example, it was outside the ruin, and therefore had no 'floors' to declare the target. Once it is at the final spot, if the hole is above the top floor it hits the top.

-cgmckenzie

Assume squad A was on the ground floor on the base of the ruin.

Shouldn't you follow the more specific rules for barrage in this case?

I'm reading that rule as the declaring part; the highest floor under the barrage at declaring it is the one hit, even with scatter. If they are in the ruin but have blue skies, any scatter will stay on that floor a la blast marker rules.

I never thought of the two as in conflict, but I see how you view them as conflicting.

-cgmckenzie

The rules for Barrage and the rules for blast are different. A blast hits a specific floor, declared at the time of firing; Barrage always hits the highest floor that the hole is over; if that's the ground then that's the one that's hit.

Yeah, the more and more I think about it, the more it makes sense to do it your way.

Anyway, if the SM were completely under the roof, they wouldn't be hit by barrage.

-cgmckenzie

Barrage is indirect fire

i.e. raining shells from above...

therefore it ALWAYS hits from the top...

...this is the same as for vehicles (can't remember page no in the BGB) if the shot scatters it will hit the top armour of the vehicle...

so a unit on ground floor with a roof over their heads will never be hit by a barrage... not targeted or scatter...

...make sense?

it did in my head...

Wrong. If the template scatters such that the hole is over the ground floor then models on the ground floor will be hit if the rest of the template covers them, roof or not.

Assuming there is no roof over that section of the ruins?

yes...

What? The hole is what matters for having a 'roof'. If they're just under the template in general then they're hit regardless of any terrain above them as long as the hole is on the same level they are.

that is what I meant...

Varl Sigmund wrote:Assuming there is no roof over that section of the ruins?

yes...

No, not at all.

If the centre of the blast is on the ground floor, and part of the blast marker covers the marines, they ARE hit.