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Hi All, this is my first foray into imperial guard territory, and indeed my first post on these forums, so any thoughts would be appreciated.

HQ -
Company Command Squad
2 Plasma Guns
Ursakar E Creed
Jarran Kell
Astropath
285 pts

Troops -
2 x Infantry Platoons w/

Platoon Command Squad
Power Weapon

2x
Infantry Squad
Power Weapon

Heavy Weapons Squad - 3x Autocannons

Special Weapons Squad - 3x Melta

300 pts per platoon

Infantry Platoon

PCS
2 flamers
Heavy Flamer

Infantry Squad
Flamer
Commissar
2 Power Weapons

Infantry Squad
Flamer
Power Weapon

Platoon total 245 pts

Fast Attack -

2 Vendetta Gunships
260 pts

Heavy Support -

Leman Russ Squadron -
2 LRBTs w/ Hull-mounted heavy bolter
300 pts

Manticore
160 pts

Manticore
160 pts

Army total 2000 pts.

Seems slightly eclectic, I know, but it's done a fairly decent job so far, barring some horrendous dice-rolling on my part. I'm still learning the codex as well, but I think that this is a pretty good list. The only thing I'm considering really is dropping the astropath, and maybe a couple other things, to get more AP2 in there. But yeah, I imagine there are a few seasoned guard players on here who can give me some ideas

Doesn't look too bad that I just feel that you're not getting most out of the Platoons and they are just standing their waiting to be assaulted or will move up and attempt to assault. The general idea of Platoons is shoot the crap out of something with mass autocannons and when something comes close or assaults you then you hack them down with mass power weaps.

... but there ARE autocannons in my list. 6 of them, to be exact. Are you saying I don't have enough autocannons at 2k pts?

There is autocannons in your list, but I didn't say there wasn't any . What I mean is those Infantry Squads (Platoons) won't and are not doing anything. And yes, six autocannons isn't enough at 2k.

How many would you suggest, then?

well how many heavy weapons are there in your list

6 autocannons, 2 battle cannons, 2 heavy bolters, 2 storm eagle rocket launchers, 6 twin-linked lascannons would cover everything classed as heavy by the game. However, the autocannons are the only infantry-based heavy weapons, distributed as 2 heavy weapon squads of 3 autocannon teams each.

I'm not a fan of your Platoon Command Squads, the cost of your company command squad or your lack of Commissars in two of the platoons. In fact, I'm not partcularly sure why you have 3 separate platoons anyway, since each only has 2 infantry squads. Cut down the last platoon, folding it into your existing two, after cutting back a bit in a few other places, you could likely fit in the last 2 squads to give you 4x20 powerblobs instead of your 3x20 powerblobs now.
It would take some list flexing, but it would make you better at what they appear to be trying to do now.

I'm thinking maybe 9-10 autocannons and a few comissairs and you've got a solid list

I'd like to have more commissars, but I'm not really sure where I'm gonna get points from, unless I remove Creed and Kell, which I am a bit hesitant to do. Kell I could see my way into removing, but Creed, with 4 orders per turn in a 24" radius, is ludicrously useful. Astropath can probably afford to go away though, he's done basically feth all so far.

Size of the platoons is a bit deliberate - Two squads apiece in more platoons gives a bit more flexibility, and more likelihood that orders will be available for issue. The third platoon is intended as something of a 'shock platoon' to generally advance on, delay, and hopefully kill some of, the enemy. With Creed's ability to outflank things, they've been pretty efficient. 'Course, if I don't outflank them (as is my tendency when power armour is involved, since they'd achieve nothing by themselves), then they're essentially an expensive speed bump. Useful against one of my friends and his ridiculous Furious charging, Lightning claw equipped, Preferred enemy posessing, Black Templar Terminators (Seriously, feth you, emperors' champion), but impractical on occasion.

But, I suppose I don't have to outflank anything, and I tend to have more orders to give than stuff to give it to.....

Hmmmmmmm....

Lets try the following:

HQ -
Company Command Squad
2 Plasma Guns
Power Weapon
Plasma Pistol
100 pts

Troops -
Infantry Platoon

Platoon Command Squad
Power Weapon

Infantry Squad
Commissar
2 Power Weapons

Infantry Squad
Power Weapon

2x Special Weapons Squad - 3x Melta

335 pts

Infantry Platoon

Platoon Command Squad
Power Weapon

Infantry Squad
Commissar
2 Power Weapons

Infantry Squad
Power Weapon

3x Heavy Weapons Squad - 3x Autocannons

430 pts

Infantry Platoon

PCS
2 flamers
Heavy Flamer

Infantry Squad
Flamer
Melta bombs
Commissar
2 Power Weapons

Infantry Squad
Flamer
Melta Bombs
Power Weapon

Platoon total 255 pts

Fast Attack -

2 Vendetta Gunships
260 pts

Heavy Support -

Leman Russ Squadron -
2 LRBTs w/ Hull-mounted heavy bolter
300 pts

Manticore
160 pts

Manticore
160 pts

Army total 2000 pts.

A lot better but i would probably drop a manticore to take creed and more heavy weapon teams

Nah, I'm liking the two-manticore setup at the moment. 2D3 S10AP4 large blasts are not to be sniffed at, and i'd only be able to get one more heavy weapons squad (3 teams) in there if I took Creed as well. 3 autocannons can't do the same amount of damage as a manticore.

Still not 100%.

Ditch the power weapon and plasma pistol on the CCS. You won't be charging anything as plasma guns are rapid fire. If you get assaulted you strike at I3 and S3 so the power weapon isn't going to do a huge amount. You don't want the pistol in case your Commander takes gets hot! wounds and he issues the orders. Btw in a foot list Creed is massively important.

Give the PCS 4 flamers and ditch the power weap for reasons explained above.

Infantry Squads still aren't doing anything. If you try and assault someone will take you all day to get across the board and no one is really going to come to you, they would just shoot you from a distance as even at range you pose no threat to neutralise.

Heavy flamer in the one PCS is over priced. Just get normal flamer instead.

Wargear needs to be better but once sorted will be ok. Here's an example foot list from my blog: http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2010/11/army-lists-imperial-guard-gunline-2000.html, http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2010/01/army-lists-imperial-guard-gun-line-list.html might need a few things changing as wrote them sometime ago.

fair enough but i think creed is essential in a 2000pt footslogging list

I concur.

also have you considered the 4x melt/plas commamd squads

mercer wrote:Still not 100%.

Ditch the power weapon and plasma pistol on the CCS. You won't be charging anything as plasma guns are rapid fire. If you get assaulted you strike at I3 and S3 so the power weapon isn't going to do a huge amount. You don't want the pistol in case your Commander takes gets hot! wounds and he issues the orders. Btw in a foot list Creed is massively important.

Give the PCS 4 flamers and ditch the power weap for reasons explained above.

Infantry Squads still aren't doing anything. If you try and assault someone will take you all day to get across the board and no one is really going to come to you, they would just shoot you from a distance as even at range you pose no threat to neutralise.

Heavy flamer in the one PCS is over priced. Just get normal flamer instead.

Wargear needs to be better but once sorted will be ok. Here's an example foot list from my blog: http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2010/11/army-lists-imperial-guard-gunline-2000.html, http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2010/01/army-lists-imperial-guard-gun-line-list.html might need a few things changing as wrote them sometime ago.

Infantry Squads can sit happily in cover next to objectives, and in kill points, people are going to have to come closer, since with "First Rank FIRE! Second Rank FIRE!", they're effectively rapid-firing all the way out to 24". And, you know, with any luck, rhino-equivalent transports are going to be smoking wrecks before that. The infantry squads don't need to actively do anything really. The Special weapons squads would go in the vendettas, which I can use to put them basically wherever.

Ditching the Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon on the CCS, the third PCS (folding the two infantry squads into my second platoon so I can still blob them), and a power weapon from one of the other PCS gives me the following:

HQ -
Company Command Squad
2 Plasma Guns
Creed
170 pts

Troops -
Infantry Platoon

Platoon Command Squad

Infantry Squad
Commissar
2 Power Weapons

Infantry Squad
Power Weapon

Infantry Squad
Flamer
Melta bombs
Commissar
2 Power Weapons

Infantry Squad
Flamer
Melta Bombs
Power Weapon

2x Special Weapons Squad - 3x Melta

510 pts

Infantry Platoon

Platoon Command Squad
Power Weapon

Infantry Squad
Commissar
2 Power Weapons

Infantry Squad
Power Weapon

3x Heavy Weapons Squad - 3x Autocannons

430 pts

Fast Attack -

2 Vendetta Gunships
260 pts

Heavy Support -

Leman Russ Squadron -
2 LRBTs w/ Hull-mounted heavy bolter
300 pts

Manticore
160 pts

Manticore
160 pts

Army total 2000 pts.

suicidal space marine wrote:also have you considered the 4x melt/plas commamd squads

Thought about it, but it'd get expensive. Besides, I'd rather not have my command squads flying around in vendettas when they could be sitting behind the gunline giving orders. 65-point suicide-melta squads = cheap enough that if they die without achieving anything then i'm not particularly bothered, but if they blow up, say, a land raider, they've made like 4 times their points value back.

Flamebeast wrote:

Infantry Squads can sit happily in cover next to objectives, and in kill points, people are going to have to come closer, since with "First Rank FIRE! Second Rank FIRE!", they're effectively rapid-firing all the way out to 24". And, you know, with any luck, rhino-equivalent transports are going to be smoking wrecks before that. The infantry squads don't need to actively do anything really. The Special weapons squads would go in the vendettas, which I can use to put them basically wherever.

You're missing the point. That Infantry Squad is probably costing about 150 points x 2 and all you're doing is sitting them waiting for someone to come to you. You will be wasting them for about over half the game. If you give them autocannons not only can they sit on a objective and shoot and actually do something but when someone does come close they can still tarpit. Also with a autocannon adds more fire power to your army. If you want to sit on a objective you take cheap scoring units, not large 20 man Platoons and wait for someone to come to you. Invest your points smartly.

Yup invest don't spend randomly anyway

mercer wrote:

Flamebeast wrote:

Infantry Squads can sit happily in cover next to objectives, and in kill points, people are going to have to come closer, since with "First Rank FIRE! Second Rank FIRE!", they're effectively rapid-firing all the way out to 24". And, you know, with any luck, rhino-equivalent transports are going to be smoking wrecks before that. The infantry squads don't need to actively do anything really. The Special weapons squads would go in the vendettas, which I can use to put them basically wherever.

You're missing the point. That Infantry Squad is probably costing about 150 points x 2 and all you're doing is sitting them waiting for someone to come to you. You will be wasting them for about over half the game. If you give them autocannons not only can they sit on a objective and shoot and actually do something but when someone does come close they can still tarpit. Also with a autocannon adds more fire power to your army. If you want to sit on a objective you take cheap scoring units, not large 20 man Platoons and wait for someone to come to you. Invest your points smartly.

Against more assault-oriented armies, I'd use the infantry squads to bubble-wrap my tanks and manticores. And they're not 150 points. An infantry squad is like 50 points. Each squad is worth 60, including the power weapon on the sergeant, or 105 if there's a commissar in there.

Besides, for the group I generally play with, sitting and waiting is fine, usually. Turn 1 or 2 assaults are not uncommon. The 9 autocannons will be deployed with the Infantry squads, or at least in positions where they can provide covering fire to them. Adding more autocannons at this point is going to be awkward, as I'm going to be taking stuff away from other areas.

I'm going to playtest the last list i posted at some point in the next fortnight, and see how i do.

I would suggest putting the ACs in regular squads and using the extra points to take a melta vet squad in one vendetta over the spec weapons team. The HWT and SWT are great at first sigh but then you realize or over paying per weapon team. I would also suggest shuffling points around enough to put Creeds unit into a Chimera. Other than that I have a similar list. yet against Demons, Nids, and Blood angels written for 'ard boys this list will be eaten alive. Good weekend fun list though.

DaCrazyDingo wrote:I would suggest putting the ACs in regular squads and using the extra points to take a melta vet squad in one vendetta over the spec weapons team. The HWT and SWT are great at first sigh but then you realize or over paying per weapon team. I would also suggest shuffling points around enough to put Creeds unit into a Chimera. Other than that I have a similar list. yet against Demons, Nids, and Blood angels written for 'ard boys this list will be eaten alive. Good weekend fun list though.

Aye, all it's intended for is weekend fun, not going for anything ultra-competitive (I need to up my generalship before I start list-tuning like that lol)

Flamebeast wrote:

Against more assault-oriented armies, I'd use the infantry squads to bubble-wrap my tanks and manticores. And they're not 150 points. An infantry squad is like 50 points. Each squad is worth 60, including the power weapon on the sergeant, or 105 if there's a commissar in there.

Besides, for the group I generally play with, sitting and waiting is fine, usually. Turn 1 or 2 assaults are not uncommon. The 9 autocannons will be deployed with the Infantry squads, or at least in positions where they can provide covering fire to them. Adding more autocannons at this point is going to be awkward, as I'm going to be taking stuff away from other areas.

I'm going to playtest the last list i posted at some point in the next fortnight, and see how i do.

No one really takes single Infantry Squads as they get wasted and that's not the point. Each Infantry Squad w/ power weap = 60 points Commissar = 45 points inc power weap that's 165 points, so yes they are about 150 points.

No point posting lists on here if you're not going to take advice of anyone. I don't think you've taken advice of anyone who has posted. Good luck with your list.

mercer wrote:

Flamebeast wrote:

Against more assault-oriented armies, I'd use the infantry squads to bubble-wrap my tanks and manticores. And they're not 150 points. An infantry squad is like 50 points. Each squad is worth 60, including the power weapon on the sergeant, or 105 if there's a commissar in there.

Besides, for the group I generally play with, sitting and waiting is fine, usually. Turn 1 or 2 assaults are not uncommon. The 9 autocannons will be deployed with the Infantry squads, or at least in positions where they can provide covering fire to them. Adding more autocannons at this point is going to be awkward, as I'm going to be taking stuff away from other areas.

I'm going to playtest the last list i posted at some point in the next fortnight, and see how i do.

No one really takes single Infantry Squads as they get wasted and that's not the point. Each Infantry Squad w/ power weap = 60 points Commissar = 45 points inc power weap that's 165 points, so yes they are about 150 points.

No point posting lists on here if you're not going to take advice of anyone. I don't think you've taken advice of anyone who has posted. Good luck with your list.

Did you even read the numbers before you posted that?

60 + 45 = 105. NOT 165.

What isn't the point?

And I did take advice - I have more autocannons than I did, and I'm thinking about putting some of them in Infantry squads, but I want to see how they perform outside of said squads first. I put Creed back in at the suggestion of suicidal space marine. No need to have a hissy fit because I fail to see the merit in one particular piece of advice that hasn't been explained properly.

60 x 2 = 120 that's two Infantry Squads as already mentioned twice now. It's like talking to a brick wall. Do you actually read what I put is the question?

There's no point in taking Infanty Squads without any ranged upgrades and just combat upgrades especially in 10 man units, which you're running them in. I've already said this twice and getting tired of repeating myself. 10 dudes S3 T3 will die in combat and quickly. They are sitting there costing 105 point for a SINGLE Infantry Squad and Commissar doing jack gak. If you double that unit so TWO Infantry Squads which will at least survive a few rounds of combat they are costing 165 points. Either way those units are pointless because they are gak in combat and waiting for someone to assault them.

Everything has been explained properly. You just fail to listen, read and understand. To make it even more cleared this is what your squads should look like seems I have to draw you a diagram.

Infantry Squad - autocannon Sgt w/ power weapon + Commissar w/ power weapon
Infantry Squad - autocannon

Take grenade launchers if you want but I've never been a fan or see them do much. Now when you're sitting there waiting for someone to assault you at least you've got 20 dudes firing 4 autocannon shots and X amount of lasgun shots at 24". When you do get assaulted you've got 20 dudes dishing out X amount of attacks and 9 power weap attacks if my maths is correct which will start chipping units down. If you take just 10 dudes with a power weapon like you said they will die rapidly.

mercer wrote:60 x 2 = 120 that's two Infantry Squads as already mentioned twice now. It's like talking to a brick wall. Do you actually read what I put is the question?

There's no point in taking Infanty Squads without any ranged upgrades and just combat upgrades especially in 10 man units, which you're running them in. I've already said this twice and getting tired of repeating myself. 10 dudes S3 T3 will die in combat and quickly. They are sitting there costing 105 point for a SINGLE Infantry Squad and Commissar doing jack gak. If you double that unit so TWO Infantry Squads which will at least survive a few rounds of combat they are costing 165 points. Either way those units are pointless because they are gak in combat and waiting for someone to assault them.

Everything has been explained properly. You just fail to listen, read and understand. To make it even more cleared this is what your squads should look like seems I have to draw you a diagram.

Infantry Squad - autocannon Sgt w/ power weapon + Commissar w/ power weapon
Infantry Squad - autocannon

Take grenade launchers if you want but I've never been a fan or see them do much. Now when you're sitting there waiting for someone to assault you at least you've got 20 dudes firing 4 autocannon shots and X amount of lasgun shots at 24". When you do get assaulted you've got 20 dudes dishing out X amount of attacks and 9 power weap attacks if my maths is correct which will start chipping units down. If you take just 10 dudes with a power weapon like you said they will die rapidly.

Ah, I see - you weren't clear earlier that you were talking about both squads as a powerblob, or I've misread something, sorry about that. And where did I say I was going to use them individually? I've always planned to powerblob the squads, I'm not that daft. Grenade launchers are cheap and strength 6 is always nice, but I haven't got any lying around, so yeah, not bothering with that.

OK, now that you've explained the autocannon idea properly, I see what you mean. If I do that for the non-flamer platoons, one autocannon per squad gives me 4 autocannons in squads, then two heavy weapon squads of 3 autocannon teams each. And gives me back.... 35 points. Any thoughts on how I should spend that?

It's pretty from my maths that I was talking about doing power blobs.

You said you'd use a Infantry Squad, which is a single 10 man unit.

The autocannon idea was explained properly from the start.

Erm you using HWTs? If so they could really do with a Lord Commissar but you've only got 35 points and I think the L.C is 70 points, I think.

mercer wrote:It's pretty from my maths that I was talking about doing power blobs.

You said you'd use a Infantry Squad, which is a single 10 man unit.

The autocannon idea was explained properly from the start.

Erm you using HWTs? If so they could really do with a Lord Commissar but you've only got 35 points and I think the L.C is 70 points, I think.

Heavy Weapon Squads, yeah (teams are the individual guns). I would like to use a lord commissar, but as you said, they're 70 points, not 35. And I don't think I can get more without some serious re-writing. might just go with grenade launchers to soak up points if i can't think of anything. might put power weapons back where they came from.

I take it your using your SWSs in your Vendettas. You kinda mentioned it in passing but you need to realise we are not mind readers, we do not know what is going where. A simple (mounted in Vendettas) after the points listed or with the equipment list would help.

I am not going to try to re-work your list, just give you some basic advice. Use what you want.

One of my key rules with IG is never waste a Special weapon slot, as they really form the back-bone of the troops. Another key is don't waste transport slots, but you seem to have that covered.

I wouldn't waste a Vendetta by charging it up and dropping 6 BS 3 guys armed with 3 meltas. I mean, you could be shooting with 3 TLed Lascannons instead at BS 3 vs the 3 BS 3 Meltas and not risk the Vendetta in a suicide rush. Use Valks for that if you want to use the tactic, use Vendettas to sit back and drop lascannon fire or outflank to get side shots. Note the priority, outflank if your doing a Outflank list or if you lost first turn.

Personally, I would give the PCSs 4x Flamers or 3x Flamers and a Heavy Flamer, put them in the Vedetta (or Chimera) and use them for late game contesting/scoring and dropping the PCSs out to burn a unit on a objective out of cover. I find it a more elegant and efficient use than spending the points on the SWS.

Proper blob equipment for 2 PISs... 1 Commissar, 3x Power weapons, 2x Meltabombs, 2x Special weapons. If it is a defensive blob (thus static), give it heavy weapons (ACs or Lascannons) and consider Plasma guns over Melta guns (for the longer range). Melta is still an option for stuff like DSing Walkers in Drop pods, so is an acceptible option. Melta is best for an assault blob due to being, well, assault.

If you have more than two HWSs, consider getting a Lord Commissar with a Camo Cloak to sit back there within 6" of those HWSs and give them Ld 10 (for morale or Orders). His job is to do nothing but keep your fire power going, not get into assault. Give him a Bolter if you want him to shoot.

Some say if you have a Lord, you do not need Kell. That is not nessisarily true. Kell allows them a morale re-roll (within 12") and Ld 10 for Orders (12" or 24", if you have Creed or not). Lord gives them Ld 10 for the first Morale check and for Orders, if they are within 6". Your choice, Lord, Kell, or both.

Creed though, if your doing Orders, is amazing (as you probably know by now). For his CCS, I suggest this build... Camo cloaks, 1-2 Plasma guns (depending if you have Kell or not), and a Lascannon. That Lascannon is going to be your only BS 4 heavy weapon, so if you really need to hit, give your own CCS 'BiD!' on that MC/Vehicle and enjoy.

I am hesitant to mention this, but if you want multiple meltas/plasmas as well as a heavy weapon, Vets with Sentries in cover can provide this. The only real drawback is that this unit is almost as expensive as melta Vets in Chimeras and they still have assault problems, though the Sentries helps alittle. Still, they are BS 4 and armed with Plasmas (and even upgraded with Harker), they can be a incredibly potent little force. I wanted to list them as an option.

In conclusion, I would work on striving to finish outfitting your troops properly, make proper blobs out of them if that is your goal, and make better use of the units you /have/ to take.

Good Luck, I hope this helps.

BlkTom wrote:I take it your using your SWSs in your Vendettas. You kinda mentioned it in passing but you need to realise we are not mind readers, we do not know what is going where. A simple (mounted in Vendettas) after the points listed or with the equipment list would help.

I am not going to try to re-work your list, just give you some basic advice. Use what you want.

One of my key rules with IG is never waste a Special weapon slot, as they really form the back-bone of the troops. Another key is don't waste transport slots, but you seem to have that covered.

I wouldn't waste a Vendetta by charging it up and dropping 6 BS 3 guys armed with 3 meltas. I mean, you could be shooting with 3 TLed Lascannons instead at BS 3 vs the 3 BS 3 Meltas and not risk the Vendetta in a suicide rush. Use Valks for that if you want to use the tactic, use Vendettas to sit back and drop lascannon fire or outflank to get side shots. Note the priority, outflank if your doing a Outflank list or if you lost first turn.

Personally, I would give the PCSs 4x Flamers or 3x Flamers and a Heavy Flamer, put them in the Vedetta (or Chimera) and use them for late game contesting/scoring and dropping the PCSs out to burn a unit on a objective out of cover. I find it a more elegant and efficient use than spending the points on the SWS.

Proper blob equipment for 2 PISs... 1 Commissar, 3x Power weapons, 2x Meltabombs, 2x Special weapons. If it is a defensive blob (thus static), give it heavy weapons (ACs or Lascannons) and consider Plasma guns over Melta guns (for the longer range). Melta is still an option for stuff like DSing Walkers in Drop pods, so is an acceptible option. Melta is best for an assault blob due to being, well, assault.

If you have more than two HWSs, consider getting a Lord Commissar with a Camo Cloak to sit back there within 6" of those HWSs and give them Ld 10 (for morale or Orders). His job is to do nothing but keep your fire power going, not get into assault. Give him a Bolter if you want him to shoot.

Some say if you have a Lord, you do not need Kell. That is not nessisarily true. Kell allows them a morale re-roll (within 12") and Ld 10 for Orders (12" or 24", if you have Creed or not). Lord gives them Ld 10 for the first Morale check and for Orders, if they are within 6". Your choice, Lord, Kell, or both.

Creed though, if your doing Orders, is amazing (as you probably know by now). For his CCS, I suggest this build... Camo cloaks, 1-2 Plasma guns (depending if you have Kell or not), and a Lascannon. That Lascannon is going to be your only BS 4 heavy weapon, so if you really need to hit, give your own CCS 'BiD!' on that MC/Vehicle and enjoy.

I am hesitant to mention this, but if you want multiple meltas/plasmas as well as a heavy weapon, Vets with Sentries in cover can provide this. The only real drawback is that this unit is almost as expensive as melta Vets in Chimeras and they still have assault problems, though the Sentries helps alittle. Still, they are BS 4 and armed with Plasmas (and even upgraded with Harker), they can be a incredibly potent little force. I wanted to list them as an option.

In conclusion, I would work on striving to finish outfitting your troops properly, make proper blobs out of them if that is your goal, and make better use of the units you /have/ to take.

Good Luck, I hope this helps.

Yeah, the SWS are going to be in the Vendettas, apologies if I wasn't clear about that.

Not planning to take more than 2 HWS, and I don't really have the points atm for Kell or a Lord Commissar without removing something pretty substantial from my list. Camo cloaks are a good idea though, I've got 35 points to spare at the moment and I have no idea why I didn't think of that. Might go with the lascannon, depends how many points are left after camo cloaks.

The idea behind using the SWS was that they'd be a cheaper (if less potent) version of meltavets. OK, yeah, they're not as good, but they (statistically) should get the job done. And like I said, them actually firing the meltas is something I'd use if I had to, but not for the sake of it (last turn scoring vendettas = win).

Thanks very much, you've given me some good ideas, I'll use what I can how I can