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Hey guys, two quick questions for you that came up in a game recently.

1: Specific to Warriors of Chaos: Can WoC champs issue challenges instead of characters in a battle? So if I have an exalted in a unit with a marauder champ, can the champ issue a challenge, thus keeping the Exalted mulching rank and file? This is assuming NO warshrine in the army, so the champion does not have Eye of the Gods himself.

2: Over running into skirmishers: Here's what happened: Chaos knights charge a beastman chariot, smash it to kindling, then over run 11" into the flank of an ungor skirmisher unit 10.5" away. The skirmisher rules say the ungors contract around the models in the middle of the front rank, which in this case pulls them out of contact with the knights by about 3 inches. What? We looked in the book and while it didn't make sense, that seemed to be what it said to do, so we chalked it up to "fething GW rules," the ungors were not in combat, and expanded back out, except 1" away from the knights.
I hope we didn't do that right, since it makes no real sense, but can anyone point out why?


Thanks guys, and double thanks for page references. I think I know how it should work, but being able to demonstrate why is most important to make certain we are all playing the same game after all!

To the first: Yes, see the WoC FAQ. All characters and champions in fact must issue challenges when they can; models without Eye of the Gods, however, can refuse if challenged.

To the second: Im not sure but I would think they would reform around the flanked models, since they are in combat and cannot actually move out of it.

The skirmisher unit collapses before distances are checked/rolled (pg 77). So yes, once it collapsed, you then measure and came up short, hence a failed overrun charge. You never actually came into contact with them. This is one where a lot of folks miss it (I didn't know myself until I read it), so I will be passing it along to my LGS.

As to the first, you are not forced to challenge with a specific model for WoC; you only must declare a challenge. It doesn't matter with what legal model.

Davall: The issue is that it isn't a charge where you declare, it is an over run where you randomly move and find out you contact it. I suppose you could argue that the skirmisher condenses if it could conceivably be hit by an overrun move, but even that is iffy. The rules on 77 dictate that it happens when they make a charge reaction other than Flee, while over run uses the rules for Pursuit Into a New Enemy, which states "Naturally, the charged unit is taken by surprise by this impromptu assault- it is not allowed to take any charge reactions and must Hold." The trouble there is whether Holding is a charge reaction. That sentence suggests that Hold isn't a charge reaction, as does Pg 16 which describes Charge Reactions as something different from Hold. Pg 16: Charge Reaction : An enemy unit that has had a charge declared against it must hold or perform a charge reaction - shooting at the chargers or retreating from the threat."

That's relevant because the condensing happens "at the moment the unit declares the charge or is called upon to make a charge reaction." (pg 77) Since Pursuit into a New Enemy specifically does not allow charge reactions, they wouldn't condense... ever?

So yea... is Hold a charge reaction? Doesn't really look like it. Stand and Shoot and Flee are the only two charge reactions that exist. Pursuit disallows charge reactions, and forces Hold.

Of course that means they don't condense either, which is weird. Good job, GW...

Hold is indeed a charge reaction option.

its what a unit does if it doesn't/can't do anything else(Flee or Stand and Shoot...)



Page 16 Charge Reactions: it lists 3 reactions. Hold, Stand and Shoot, and Flee.

Correction, it says the following:

"An enemy unit that has had a charge declared against it must hold or perform a charge reaction - shooting at the chargers or retreating from the threat."

Not "perform a charge reaction - hold, stand and shoot or retreat" mind you. Only standing and shooting or fleeing are subsets of charge reaction.

Then again on page 17 at the end of the first paragraph:

"There are two types of charge reaction: Stand and Shoot and Flee! A unit that does not make a charge reaction is always considered to Hold."

Spells it out right there, there are two types of charge reaction and Hold isn't one of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can see why this is causing consternation. It reads a lot like they were going one way with the charge reaction rules, then later forgot what they were doing and assumed every thing you do when being charged is a charge reaction, despite Hold specifically not being one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, actually it reads like they never considered what happens when skirmishers are hit from the flank...

I see.


I can see how they would have overlooked this, seeing as how this is the first time skirmisher's have had flanks

Pg 58 under OVERRUN! "...the victorious unit moves 2D6" directly forward as if they were pursuing a fleeing enemy directly to their front. All other rules governing pursuit moves, such as intervening unit and terrain, apply to overruns."

Pg 58 under Pursuit into a new enemy "...Carry out the charge as you would in a normal movement phase."

In this case, you've essentially charged the skirmishers, so they would indeed rank up to the middle model in the front rank. Doing so made you miss.

Finish the part about pursuits though:

"Naturally, the charged unit is taken by surprise by this impromptu assault- it is not allowed to take any charge reactions and must Hold."

So by eliminating the part where the skirmishers don't get to have a reaction, the game breaks? They never collapse?

I dunno, I think in a tourney the TO would have to rule, or d6. Personally, I would play it that skirmishers form around the guys on the facing they are getting charged into, so basically some get contacted and the rest crowd in to support their buddies.

I'm of the opinion that the skirmishers are hit in this case. The skirmishers don't bunch up until a charge is declared. A charge is not declared during an overrun until you discover that contact would be made.

Once contact is made, two things occur-

1) The overrun becomes a charge found to be in range, and is executed as such.

2) The skirmishers contract.

So I'd contract the skirmishers and complete the charge, only failing if there was no way to get to their new location with a single pivot of up to 90 and a "close the door" move.

Hmm. I still think Holding is a charge reaction as it is under, well, Charge Reactions. But I can see the confusion. Dice it off would be my answer.

Part of the charge rules have a little bit of wiggle-room built into them. Basicly when it comes to charging if you have the distance to get to the model when you declare the charge, you make it, no matter how far you have to end up eventually going.

There was a really interesting situation where someone had a single chariot that could see, but couldn't fit between combats, down an 8 foot line of models until it made it 8 feet away. So the chariot automatically made its charge, because the part that it could see was 6 inches away, but it had to travel 8 feet in a straight line down the
open spot, then wheel 90 degrees, and finally travel the last 6 inches to get into combat.

I think this, is that sort of situation, you made it into contact with the skirmishers when you measured, so it doesn't matter the actual distance required to actually travel to get into combat.

Davall wrote:Hmm. I still think Holding is a charge reaction as it is under, well, Charge Reactions. But I can see the confusion. Dice it off would be my answer.

I am unclear as to why you hold this opinion when the Charge Reaction section specifically says on page 17:

"There are two types of charge reaction: Stand and Shoot and Flee! A unit that does not make a charge reaction is always considered to Hold."

Can you elaborate?

It all boils down to the fact it is a poorly written rule (imagine that). From a strict RAW PoV, I would contend the rule itself breaks the game. I am not willing to go into it as it doesn't actually help the situation any, as there wouldn't be any call made except for "the game breaks".

This serves no purpose, which is why I avoid going that route when I answer.

I will let you all do that sort of minutia.

(This is not meant as an attack. It is more of a statement of contempt for GW's poor rule writing "skills".)