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Afternoon all, I wanted to seek some insight on 40K players in general. Recently i have been getting back into 40K and really enjoying it. I love the models, fluff, and generally enjoy painting. As a little background, I started wargaming with 40K when I was 16, I went through the atypical transition to WFB, I play warmachine / hordes as well. Mordheim was a game which I played almost exclusively for several years. Now i'm older, 8th edition isn't to my feeling right now. So I started 40K, chosing Chaos Space Marines for the escalation league as I love their fluff. So I build for the last even a 1000 pts list. Of note, these are models i've had for years, and don't know much about meta game with other codexs, I went with what I expected to see: mech guard, demons, orks, MEQ.

Demon prince, Khorne
Demon prince, lash, wings
Terms x5, 3 lightning claws, 3 combi weapons
9 Besekers, icon, rhino
7 Plague Marines, icon, 2 plasma guns
Obliterator

I didn't think my list was overly powerful. I built it because, frankly its what was painted, and it seemed to let me cope with most scenario. Maybe i'd win, maybe I wouldn't but I really wanted to learn. The league so far as been ok, but i've encountered the following:

1. Lots of gamers complaining I have a Lash of Submission and 2 Demon Princes. Of note, said demon princes have died almost every game.
2. LOTS of complaining. Mech Guard players calling CSM overpowerful. Lots of people with measuring errors, people not knowing range on weapons or strengths.
3. Non WYSIWYG armies. IE catching players with more plasma guns in a squad then on a roster. Models with powerfists that on a roster say power weapons.

Having been in the gaming world for 20 years, I thought i'd reach out to a community. Is this the norm in the 40k system now? I posed the comments to the runner of the event, given I have a lot of history in the gaming community in the area. Or is this more likely, a lax implementation of rules?

1. Lash is a really annoying power. It's very powerful, and I know I don't like the idea of other people moving my models around.

2. Mech Guard saying CSM is overpowered? That's a laugh! People not knowing range on weapons or strengths just sounds like people new to the game.

3. There's a good deal of proxying in the game these days, but as long as it's made clear what everything is there's no cause for complaining.

It sounds to me like your gaming group is just one of new players who don't really know what's what yet. More experienced players won't whine so much and will actually know what they're talking about.

The people your playing against sound terrible at this game. Chaos currently is one of the worst armies in the entire game while Imperil guard is one of the best. If the Imperial guard guy can't figure out how to beat you he must really not know how to put a list together or has no common sense when it comes to playing (probably both) and then to cry about it on top of it is poor form.

Most good armies completely mech up and are immune to lash or have some psychic defense. Don't become dependent on lash because actual good players will laugh it off.

As for proxying, its personal preference how strict you want to be about it but I generally just ask people what each unit has and hold them to it outside of a tournament. You don't have to accept games from people who abuse your trust. If they say they have one plasma gun at the beginning and then they suddenly have three there you don't need to play them again. This also goes for things like "forgetting to roll reserves" when its inconvenient and always having the best suited squad jump out of a given transport. That "note on secrecy" thing in the back of the BRB puts it pretty clear that you and he should have a very good understanding of what is in your respective armies before you start playing.

This has not been my experience. most people i have played have been nice, and pretty lenient,

cromwest wrote:The people your playing against sound terrible at this game. Chaos currently is one of the worst armies in the entire game while Imperil guard is one of the best. If the Imperial guard guy can't figure out how to beat you he must really not know how to put a list together or has no common sense when it comes to playing (probably both) and then to cry about it on top of it is poor form.

Chaos isn't one of the worst armies, but it's pretty limited. Average at worst, but you're right on Guard. Mech Guard can trash just about anybody without much issue, if the army's built well and the player isn't terrible.

As for the people who don't know ranges/strengths of weapons, are you referring to their own army's weapons or yours?

Criticism originating from disreputable gentlemen will continually persist.

Were you playing in an organized event, or just some kind of '40k night' at a local establishment? If the former, then the non WYSIWYG thing is inexcusable, the second is pretty shysty, and the first is a just sour grapes. You expect to see folks being unhappy when they lose, and somehow blaming it on the guy who wins. It's bad sportsmanship, but it happens.

If it was more of a casual atmosphere, then the non WYSIWYG thing is to be expected. My army isn't entirely WYSIWYG yet, and in a friendly game, the armies will be more of a work in progress than a finished product.

In general, when it comes to checking weapon strengths, ballistic/weapon skills, ranges, and in general all stats, I frequently have to check a book. I still don't have every stat from every unit in my army memorized, much as I would like to, and mistakes happen. I try to avoid them, apologize, and make amends when they do, but it does happen.

Lash of Submission sets my teeth on edge. As a power, I don't really have so much of a problem with it. I have more of a problem with someone I have never met sticking their sweaty nasty peter beaters all over my models. Models break all the time, and if I do it, I have no problem with it. But if one of my opponents does it, I have to always wonder "Would that have happened if I was the one moving that?" It isn't a product of the power that I have the issue with, it's trusting the other player to treat my stuff with the same level of care I do.

Don't listen to anyone telling you your army is "too powerful." In my personal opinion, there isn't really that much difference in power level of the various armies, just ease of use. Some armies are a little harder to figure out than others, but a skilled player doesn't need the power-play list to win.

Stick it out. People will probably get a little more tolerable the longer you know and play with them. If nothing else, you will start to identify who is a likeable opponent and who is a frothing scrotal wart.

I didn't realize that people hate lash so much. I figured lots of marine players would have a librarian to shut it down. Also, I completely agree with the moving other players models. Generally I actually measure from the models and put dice down, then ask the player to move their own stuff as if I broke something, i'd feel horrible and insist on replacing it.

The escalation league is full of people who supposedly are gearing up for tournments, or goto them. I was a little surprised and taken back from the things i've been experiencing. Also as for knowing ranges: i'm referring to other players, I have mine memorized, and have a roster copy for all opponents, at the bottom is a list of weapons with range / special rules to aid the game and opponent.

I plan on sticking it out. I am liking 40K alot again which was a really nice surprise. I will say, out of the people in the league, over half play mech guard. I've already played and beaten most of them. One guys had 3 vendettes at 1000 pts complaining about the princes. I kept thinking, if I had those i'd just unload all those lascannons into 1 prince at a time?

Thank you for the input, i'm guessing some of the players may not be as seasoned as they are presenting, and hopefully are still learning the game.

mech guard are common, glad to hear that you are sticking it out!

on your third point

it is far too expensive to build WYSIWYG armys, especially if you are one of there people who like variety and love to play differing styles of armies.

may i remind you that a squad of guard has almost doubled in the last few years. (£18 for two squads now its £15.50 for one squad!) people have to try to make do with what they have.

(sorry don't know the equivilant in dollars)

JamesMclaren123 wrote:on your third point

it is far too expensive to build WYSIWYG armys, especially if you are one of there people who like variety and love to play differing styles of armies.

may i remind you that a squad of guard has almost doubled in the last few years. (£18 for two squads now its £15.50 for one squad!) people have to try to make do with what they have.

Not playing WYSIWYG is all good and fine as long as people tell you what their people have.

coolyo294 wrote:Not playing WYSIWYG is all good and fine as long as people tell you what their people have.

True, but won't agree in any circumstance at having a power weapon armed warrior tell me its a powerfist...

coolyo294 wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:on your third point

it is far too expensive to build WYSIWYG armys, especially if you are one of there people who like variety and love to play differing styles of armies.

may i remind you that a squad of guard has almost doubled in the last few years. (£18 for two squads now its £15.50 for one squad!) people have to try to make do with what they have.

Not playing WYSIWYG is all good and fine as long as people tell you what their people have.

i completely agree but you should have acess to thier army list so they cannot start cheating

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:Not playing WYSIWYG is all good and fine as long as people tell you what their people have.

True, but won't agree in any circumstance at having a power weapon armed warrior tell me its a powerfist...

Maybe it's a super overcharged powersword!

coolyo294 wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:Not playing WYSIWYG is all good and fine as long as people tell you what their people have.

True, but won't agree in any circumstance at having a power weapon armed warrior tell me its a powerfist...

Maybe it's a super overcharged powersword!

Hmm, I guess so! It would really depend on the game methinks. If its really friendly and in my opponent's army list I suppose I'd have to accept. But otherwise... that power sword is just is a power sword!

On the note of expensive guardsman: The entire hobby is expensive. If I am expected to have multiple options for my CSM IE plasma guns, power weapons, power swords, not using plasma pistols as bolt pistols, I would simply ask the same in my opponent. Its not like i'm running around without my icon's showing, my unit champions are clearly indicated. If the expectation of tournment play is WYSIWYG, then its WYSIWYG whether you play Guard, CSM, Tau, etc.

I am not new to this game, I took a few years off 40K. I played both Orks and Guard and always had the right WYSIWYG weapon options even in horde based armies. I will happily allow some flak / fudging. But the examples i've seen are having to tell people "hey if your guardsman overloaded his plasma this turn why is there still one in your squad that's shooting at me this turn?" When people start trying to pull a fast one is when my concerns grow. My concerns are not for those folks who through the game are replacing those stand in guys with plasma weapons, for flash lights.

i remember when you could get a heap of guardsmen for $30...

If you have a job and table top gaming is your main hobby its not any more expensive to buy new models and keep them WYSIWYG than it is to do most other hobbies even with the price increase. Especially if you magnetize your stuff, get good at conversions, hit up ebay for bits and have been playing long enough that you have a whole lot of bits of your own. That sad truth when it comes to entertainment is that most hobbies (especially niche ones) are pretty expensive because the company is selling to a small audience that is using its disposable income. A fully painted and WYSIWYG army is not something you just buy right off its a goal that you work to for months/years, at least thats the way it is for me.

njpc wrote:On the note of expensive guardsman: The entire hobby is expensive. If I am expected to have multiple options for my CSM IE plasma guns, power weapons, power swords, not using plasma pistols as bolt pistols, I would simply ask the same in my opponent. Its not like i'm running around without my icon's showing, my unit champions are clearly indicated. If the expectation of tournment play is WYSIWYG, then its WYSIWYG whether you play Guard, CSM, Tau, etc.

I am not new to this game, I took a few years off 40K. I played both Orks and Guard and always had the right WYSIWYG weapon options even in horde based armies. I will happily allow some flak / fudging. But the examples i've seen are having to tell people "hey if your guardsman overloaded his plasma this turn why is there still one in your squad that's shooting at me this turn?" When people start trying to pull a fast one is when my concerns grow. My concerns are not for those folks who through the game are replacing those stand in guys with plasma weapons, for flash lights.

I completely agree with you in the aspect that people try to use that as an excuse to try and cheat. what i mean is if you buy a guard squad you get a flamer or a GL. i would hope that people would give you the leway that "my guy with the GL, he's pointed as having a Flamer" or " my LRBT is pointed as a demolisher". But i agree that those that are different need to be clearly marked as different.

I personally try my best to make my armies WYSISYG as much as possible, but some things always slip through; somehow one of my IG sergeants has a powerfist with sergeant stripes on it. I honestly don't know how I missed that one.

But when people can't keep track of what their lists are, they seriously need to do some work. Being underhanded in a game is stupid, and in the end will only get you an upset opponent. My ego can take a loss, if you are cheating to win, you obviously need it more than I do.

-cgmckenzie

Haven't really got a lot to add except its now £18 for 10 guard not £15.50 (unless your buying from a third party) see the last price hike.

I play guard and all 5000 odd points of my army is WYSIWYG apart for a few thing that are either scratch built models or I can't really model (like Melta bombs). This isn't because I insist on it or other people have but when i started the hobby I was worried people would have a go if my army wasn't.

My play attitude is very dependent on who i'm playing, i can't really describe how or why but its all to do with the feel of the game and the attitude of my opponent.

If i'm playing one of my regular opponents just for a giggle i'm usually quite relaxed with WYSIWYG and measuring and so forth, however I can start getting a bit anal if I think some is taking liberties or it gets to confusing (like when everything is a count as or there are 10 flamers 5 of which are actually melta's ) . Sloppy measuring happens a lot but again i can let it slide if i'm playing the right opponent. If some one starts rules lawyer, smack talking (too much) or generally being a TFG you better believe I take the game more seriously.

I'm an older player (not as in length of time gaming but actual age) so when I started I thought a lot of the problems with not knowing rules and general slap dashery was going to be from the younger players but if i'm honest it hasn't been its been a real mixed bag. Some people are just bad sports, some people just like to win even if it means cheating and some people take the game way too seriously.

my best advice is find some people you like playing against.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:
I completely agree with you in the aspect that people try to use that as an excuse to try and cheat. what i mean is if you buy a guard squad you get a flamer or a GL. i would hope that people would give you the leway that "my guy with the GL, he's pointed as having a Flamer" or " my LRBT is pointed as a demolisher". But i agree that those that are different need to be clearly marked as different.

Maybe not the best example since flamers cost the same as GL .

Seriouisly, though, I agree as well. I go through pains to make sure my army is WYSIWYG, for my sake if nothing else. As for forgeting things like ranges, strengths, etc, I have this problem a lot myself, mainly because I only play 40k once or twice per month. Hee hee, there have been times where I'm so excited to get to the shooting phase that I've forgotten to move whole units . I'm also notorious for forgetting about my reserves. That being said, I only play friendly games with a small-ish group at my FLGS...like the OP, I would probably expect more from a leauge with "tournament" players.

i always play WYSIWYG, even if i could do better with a proxy, i like having what i have on the field play...like i STRONGLY dislike it when my friend proxys terminators for obliterators

SpankHammer III wrote:Haven't really got a lot to add except its now £18 for 10 guard not £15.50 (unless your buying from a third party) see the last price hike.

I play guard and all 5000 odd points of my army is WYSIWYG apart for a few thing that are either scratch built models or I can't really model (like Melta bombs). This isn't because I insist on it or other people have but when i started the hobby I was worried people would have a go if my army wasn't.

My play attitude is very dependent on who i'm playing, i can't really describe how or why but its all to do with the feel of the game and the attitude of my opponent.

If i'm playing one of my regular opponents just for a giggle i'm usually quite relaxed with WYSIWYG and measuring and so forth, however I can start getting a bit anal if I think some is taking liberties or it gets to confusing (like when everything is a count as or there are 10 flamers 5 of which are actually melta's ) . Sloppy measuring happens a lot but again i can let it slide if i'm playing the right opponent. If some one starts rules lawyer, smack talking (too much) or generally being a TFG you better believe I take the game more seriously.

I'm an older player (not as in length of time gaming but actual age) so when I started I thought a lot of the problems with not knowing rules and general slap dashery was going to be from the younger players but if i'm honest it hasn't been its been a real mixed bag. Some people are just bad sports, some people just like to win even if it means cheating and some people take the game way too seriously.

my best advice is find some people you like playing against.

Really!!?? that is rediculous £18 for ten guardsmen.

I would dearly love to have a WYSIWYG army, and if i won the lottery i would have one, i would buy all the different things for veriety, but i just cannot aford to buy both a sarget with a power sowrd AND one with a powerfist because they would be used in different situations. I don't like cheats and will usually give the benefit of the doubt to my opponent as i play for fun not winning (hence i don't use mech or powerblobs for my guard).

P.S> sorry for the numerous spelling mistakes.

Yeah tell me about it, my goal from the momet I started was to build a full infantry company. I'm about half way there not including HWS and SWS to complete the project will cost me at least £300 at those prices. If I had bought the whole day 1 (only two years ago) the whole project would have only in region of £450.

See you ebay

In the good old days a box of 30 SM with some missile launchers, some flamers, power fists, pistol hands, knives, and ammo boxes, was










Ten British Pounds.

That was in the late 1980s.

They weren't bald and screamy, and they didn't have any purity seals.

models are the same cost, you just have to pay extra for the purity seals, lol, jk

Am i right in saying that GW has never had a sale, or a price drop of any kind?

"Back in the days of 1980s"
I'd hate to admit this to show age, my brother and I started the game in the days of the old Tan Space Marines army box. I think he bought it for $20 off the shelf. I played Eldar and was restricted to me 10 metal Guardian figure per blister which was the size of a brick!

It does sadden me. Gaming really picked up for me in college, where I was buying 10 chaos space marines for $20, which I felt was a fair price. Now its nearly $40 US after taxes. I do sympathize with folks starting out now, this is not a cheap game, and it is hard to expand your army.