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HQ:
Librarian- Shield, Fear of Darkness

Elite:
Furioso - Blood Talons
Furioso - Blood Talons
Furioso - Blood Talons

Troop:
Assault Marines x5 - remove JP, Razorback w/ TLLC
Assault Marines x5 - remove JP, Razorback w/ TLLC
Assault Marines x5 - remove JP, Razorback w/ TLLC
Assault Marines x5 - remove JP, Razorback w/ TLLC

Fast:
Baal Predator - Assault Cannon, HB Sponsons
Baal Predator - Assault Cannon, HB Sponsons
Baal Predator - Assault Cannon, HB Sponsons

Heavy:
Predator - Auto Cannon, Lascannon Sponsons
Predator - Auto Cannon, Lascannon Sponsons
Predator - Auto Cannon, Lascannon Sponsons

Sadly, I need to shave 85 points. Not sure where to take it from. I was thinking about dropping a Furioso. I think that will be the best idea. That would put me at 40 spare points. Gives me 4 HKM for the Razorbacks. What do you think Dakka?

Pretty good. Las/Plas is way better than TL-LC, though.

The easy way to save 85 points is to cut the Baal sponsons. Heavy Bolters suck, and you want to move 12" a lot anyway due to the 24" range on the TL-AC.

It's probably worth considering cutting a Furioso to make the other two Librarians, so they can keep up with the rest of the armor. You'd have 30 points left to get a special weapon in each Razorback squad.

MrEconomics wrote:The easy way to save 85 points is to cut the Baal sponsons. Heavy Bolters suck, and you want to move 12" a lot anyway due to the 24" range on the TL-AC.

I agree, Heavy Bolters are dead weight on the Baal, especially for 30 points each. Even if you didn't need to shave 85 points I would suggest dropping those.

I usually take them due to volume of shots and ther are most of my horde control. Never used Lib furiosos. My biggest worry is being too shooty.

Heavy Bolters really aren't good at crowd control. A pair of sponsons will kill 2.67 Orks that don't get a cover save, or 3.33 Guardsmen that don't get a save. Add in the TL-AC and you're looking at about 5.67 dead Orks and 6.33 dead Guardsmen. Not too great for a round of shooting.

The best target for a Baal Predator is vehicles, either low AV or high AV.

So basically, I drop the sponsons and that would give me the point needed to make this 1850.

You mentioned dropping a Furioso to make the other 2 Librarian. The rest of the army isnt actually assault based...

I wish army building was easier lol. Should have played something with a pretty standard, run of the mill list.

Just out of curiosity, why is autocannons on preds better than TL-LC? More shots? or simply overkill and waste of points?

@Shadelkan: A TL-LC is better than an Autocannon, but not 45 points better.

@OP: My thinking was that the Librarians will have an easier time keeping up with the rest of the army, via Wings. The more that I think about it, the more I think it's better to just have the regular BT Furiosos.

While it's true that the rest of the army is built to shoot, having a counter-assault element can be a good idea. A great thing about the Blender Dreads you currently have in the list is that dual Talon Dreads will do really well against some of the toughest lists you can face: Hordes. On the charge, you can expect about 8 dead Orks, and since it takes a PK Nob two turns on average to even make you roll on the damage chart, you're a really good bet to wipe a 20 Boy squad out in two turns. The problem will be keeping your force together, but you'll probably want to castle up anyway.

If you were taking Vindicators and TL-AC Razorbacks instead, it would be a tougher call.

The TL-LC for the predators is 65pts which makes it even more of a terrible choice.

I agree with you Mr.E. Horde orcs and Horde nids give me a bit of trouble. Unless those dreads get into combat. I have had them get immobilized turn one and pretty much makes a nice piece of scenery. But when they get there!

So you think the list should look like this.

Librarian - Shield, Fear

Furioso - BT
Furioso - BT
Furioso - BT

5m Assault squad - RB w/ Las/Plas
5m Assault squad - RB w/ Las/Plas
5m Assault squad - RB w/ Las/Plas
5m Assault squad - RB w/ Las/Plas

Baal Pred - Assault Cannon
Baal Pred - Assault Cannon
Baal Pred - Assault Cannon

Predator - Auto Cannon, LC Sponson
Predator - Auto Cannon, LC Sponson
Predator - Auto Cannon, LC Sponson

I seem to be the only guy on here that likes Sponsions on Baal Preds. Personally I think running them WITHOUT sponsions is a bit of a waste unless you are just looking to take a Flamestorm Cannon and scout rush your opponents back line.

An AC/HB Baal Predator can move 6" and fire everything, and against Dark Eldar or even Razorspam/Chimera Spam that's relatively scary. My friend runs a pair of them in almost every game with that configuration and their damage output is quite significant.

As for the TLLC VS LasPlas debate, I honestly think that's a matter of preference and possibly a matter of what the list needs, or the meta you play in. TLLC is more reliable against vehicles and at the very least it helps ensure a hit. It's better for long ranged suppression fire and I find that in my local area it outperforms the LasPlas within the role I need it to perform. LasPlas is a better short range weapon, useful for anti-terminator fire and dealing with FNP troops, and much more effective for Blood Angels than it is for Space Wolves or other Space Marines. Moving 6" or less it's a solid weapon for taking down light vehicles in close proximity and can be useful against Dark Eldar, Blood Angels and Grey Knights. It's also a second weapon on the tank which makes it more difficult to suppress via weapon destroyed/immobilized results.

In this case I think the LasPlas is a better buy. You have Predators with Lascannons to offset the loss of accuracy, and since it's mounted on a fast vehicle it can move and fire both weapons.

I completely see what you are saying Aldarionn. I am also a fan of the HB sponsons on the Baals. I feel they are more effective with the additional 6 bullets for horde control. My biggest issue when playing games is mostly horde armies. Nids, Orks, and TWC. Baal preds with sponsons would rip through a TWC unit for a turn or 2 and soften them up enough to where the furioso would be able to assault and possibly finish them off. Against Orks and Nids, well, that number of shots tearing though their large squads or even the monsterous creatures.. well IMO, making the opponent roll more dice for saves means more chances of something dieing or being wounded.

My meta in the area is mostly Mech. Then there are the SW players that dont really have mech but that scarey TWC unit that rips everythign to shreds. Along with the longfangs that put rockets into everything till its all blown up. (although I did see someone put 30+ rockets into a furioso and never hurt it lol).

I just need to get a good solid list to play at 1850 so I can get it all painted for tournements and work around it. This list seems solid enough to handle things I would be going against BUT there is still the issue of the 85 point overage. Drop the sponsons for a furioso. Maybe even drop a normal Pred....

I would run 2x Baal Preds with Sponsions and stick with the 3x Furiosos and the 3x AC/LC Predators. That should fix the problem and leave you a few points to spare.

I kinda like that idea. I only own 2 Baals right now. This would give me 60pts to spare. HKM for all! MUAHAHHAHAHA. ALPHA STRIKE GOOOOO!

I'd spend 40 of those 60 points putting Meltaguns on your Assault Marines. Not having them means you don't have anything that can reliably destroy AV14. Perhaps the other 20 could be spent on Meltabombs for the Sergeants? That would certainly be more useful than a bunch of 1 shot Missile Launchers.

Thats why I prefer the TLLC on the razorbacks. Its more reliable to hit with it yet that means I would still need a 5/6 to do anything. I guess thats a good idea. Sad thing is, that would mean one squad would have to go on a suicide mission.

So this is the list as of now:

Librarian - Fear of the Darkness, Shield of Sanguinius

Furioso - Blood Talons
Furioso - Blood Talons
Furioso - Blood Talons

5m Assault Squad - Meltagun 1x, Sgt has Meltabombs
+Razorback w/ Las/Plas
5m Assault Squad - Meltagun 1x, Sgt has Meltabombs
+Razorback w/ Las/Plas
5m Assault Squad - Meltagun 1x, Sgt has Meltabombs
+Razorback w/ Las/Plas
5m Assault Squad - Meltagun 1x, Sgt has Meltabombs
+Razorback w/ Las/Plas

Baal - Assault Cannon, HB sponson
Baal - Assault Cannon, HB sponson

Predator - Autocannon, Lascannon Sponson
Predator - Autocannon, Lascannon Sponson
Predator - Autocannon, Lascannon Sponson

1850 exact

MrEconomics wrote:Pretty good. Las/Plas is way better than TL-LC, though.

I completely disagree with this as I've tried both out for many years. Single shots almost never get the job done, while twin linking secures your hit. Focus on what the weapon's job is: if you want lascannon, don't muddy the water with tacking on a weapon that can't punch through heavy armor effectively. Sure, plasma guns are great against MEQ but then you're overkilling with your LC. Taking a long ranged weapon close to the enemy on a light vehicle, just to use the 2nd half of the gun isn't a great idea. Keep the rolls separate- LC of anti armor at long range, Baals for anti infantry at medium range, and rhinos for transport. Clean, clear jobs for each unit.

The baals with side sponsons lay down a volume of fire that is worth it. I don't care what mathhammer says, I've tested them through a ton of games to find that they they work well (sorry if I'm overly direct about this- no offense to other Dakka members was meant). Lets also put it this way: a ball with a ONLY a turret weapon is one weapons destroyed result away from being useless. Baals work best in packs so if you're going to take them, take 2+

Advice from another thread that also applies to your army, so cut/paste time.

Good:
Spam is good- redundant units are great
This army does not rely on one trick to get the job done. GOOD!
Librarian with shield = good times.
Mechanized infantry are king.

Issues:
Small units get torn apart/shot apart very easily unless you hide them way in the back. If you do that, just make them regular marines (cheap as possible) to get the vehicle spam. Small units do very poorly in assault. Speaking of which:
This army has no real assault power. Yes there is a lot of assault marines, but small units get shot to crap riding up, and you have no power fists or power weapons to really land a killing blow when you do get into HTH. The larger the unit, the better your chance of actually getting into assault and doing some damage.
Your mobile assault is crippling it's self. If you're riding your assaulters in the razorbacks, then your moving flat out to get toward the enemy ASAP and probably hitting smoke on turn 1. Which means you're not shooting. Which means you're wasting points on your guns because they won't be shooting. Or you'll be moving at partial speed to fire the guns, but keeping your assaulters out of combat in AR11 vehicles. Either way is not a great way to spend your points since shooting is conflicting with moving (same problem a land raider, storm bird, vendetta, etc... all have.)
If you are using your vehicles to get your assaulters into HTH then they NEED extra armor. This is something you can't skimp on, or your assault will arrive peace meal and you'll be chewed apart.
Single shot weapons are bad. Twin link your lascannons. Double up on the melta guns in your squads. Hands down the single best way to win at 40k is to throw the most dice as possible against the enemy. Single shots almost never get the job done.
Having Dreads run across the battlefield is a bad idea. Drop pod them in. Better yet, get a DC dread with a melta gun and metla grapples. 2 melta shots are better than one.

Advice:
BA do extremely well with units that give bonuses to other units. You hit it on the head with the libby shield. Think about a SP for the 6" FNP save + furious charge. You are really not taking advantage of this army's strengths if you don't. This save will keep your assaulters alive to get into combat. Azaroth the Grim for the exact same reason, although I would only use him at 2k points.
Get a unit of Death Company since you like to take the fight to the enemy. I run one 7 strong with 2 PW, 1 PF + chaplin in a rhino. They will tear apart anything they charge. I've killed units of plague marines, terminators, deamon princes, greater deamons + many many others apart in one turn. Forget giving them jump packs- that's a foolish amount of points when rhinos work magic. This unit is not meant to hold objectives, it's meant to tear holes in the enemy while the rest of your army gets in place.
Fatten up your squads for survivability.
Give your Vets power fists.
Increase the amount of special guns per squad.
Twin link when you can.
Refocus your shooting from your moving. The BA rhino rush is a live and strong but you will need 3+ rhinos to do it. ALWAYS give extra armor to your troop transports. With rhinos taking assaulters to the enemy, take a couple of 5 man tac squads to buy the razorbacks with long ranged fire support.
Drop the melta bombs and give a power fist to your vets. You're going to get more attacks on a vehicle at str 8 than one melta bomb attack.

Plasma on vehicles don't overheat

Woops! I was thinking plasma cannons when I wrote that. Corrected.

I do see what the post is saying about single shots and TL when you can. I like how it explains the bad and good in the separating the types of guns on a RB. Also, you make an amazing point as to why you DO take sponsons on a baal pred. One weapon syndrome. This is the reason I dont like runnning Vindicators. One weapon destroyed result and its useless.

If you rush in with rhinos, in theory you would leave the unit in the tank and basically hope they dont blow it to hell and back and then assault/shoot up whats inside so that you would get to jump out and assault next turn? Never tried it but seems a little scarry.

Hello!

Couple more points about small squads and volume of fire. Small squad means it become so much easier for the enemy to force you to start allocating wounds to your specials/vets. Lets use your Baal (with sponsons) vs one of your 5 man assaulters as an example. In one round of firing it would be easy for the baal to get enough wounds to force a save on at least one of the two special marines (melta or vet). You don't want to be in that situation on the first round of being shot up. This will happen with massed bolter fire from tactical squad, etc...

The rhino rush:

It can be scary because you're moving around with a bunch of AV11 vehicles. True.

However, remember redundant units. YOU (as do I) like to take the fight to the enemy; your list composition told me as much. So in order to do this you will need at least three rhinos to do it. Preferably more. Rhinos move 18" and can pop smoke for the first turn, making them pretty survivable with a few tricks. Smoke gives cover, rhinos screening other rhinos giving them cover, libby in a rhino with shield gives them cover, etc. Same if you run an assault squad with packs- use the rhinos to screen them. Put a tac squad in one of them and keep it on the outside. If it takes hits, your assault force stays strong. You'll probably want to take at least one full unit of tac with the armored push because you want SOMEONE to sit on the enemy objectives. Considering you will get objective games about 2/3 of the time, that's important. Assault is great but pulls you all over the map.

Give your enemy too many targets gives you better survivability, something your original list was good at, but larger squads gives you the punch you need when you hit home. There's no point in going anywhere if you can't do anything of value when you arrive.

Rhinos give a lot of cover to the troops when they bail out. I form a rhino wall (head to tail) with less than 1" between the two. The enemy can't assault you through that gap, leaving you a little breathing room when you disembark. If you work it nicely, jump packers will have a very hard time trying to find space behind you. This forces the enemy into a couple of bad choices.
1. Shoot or assault the rhino, which means they can't do anything to your troops. If they blow it up, so what? You'll just move through the wreckage next turn.
2. Leave it alone and back off. Also bad because you'll follow up or secure the area.

Lastly, don't split your assault forces. Pick a flank and press it hard. If you split up, you won't have enough troops to support each other and your assault falls apart. With the SP in the mix of all these troops, it means you will have FC on several units which will be devastating.

You cannot just think about the Razorbacks when rushing the enemy. Remember that you have eight vehicles on the board with AV13 to help draw fire away from those AV11 targets as well as lay down covering fire while they advance, and with so many threats your opponent will have a difficult time making choices. Does he go for grounding your scoring units and then leave himself open to massed predator fire and a possible assault from Furioso Dreads, or does he focus on the predators and/or Dreads and potentially let your scoring units run free while their tanks shoot things? It's all about saturation, and Blood Angels AV13 spam lists do this better than anyone else. The latest version of the list is perfect, and I would not change a single aspect of it.

I like what Aldarionn said. If your opponent focuses on the troops, the amount of fire power is going to get them in the long run. If they focus on the AV13 things, they are going to leave your troops alone and you will be more likely able to capture/contest more objectives. Its a list that I am going to try today. I might work on something else because this list as it stands seems to be pretty solid.

Ive been working on a stormraven list with 2 squads of termies and a DC squad with a LRR! Gonna be lower model count but it sure will give them 3 large targets to deal with. Im just still a little skeptical on the SR's. They seem to be easy targets.

Stormravens are kinda terrible for Blood Angels. They are a little better for Grey Knights because they have Fortitude, but for Blood Angels they have to take Extra Armor to avoid Crew Stunned results, and even then they can only fire one weapon. They are also only AV12 all around which leaves them vulnerable to a wide variety of weaponry that Land Raiders and Predators can largely ignore. If they were AV13/11/10 like Predators then I could see them being MUCH more useful, but as the rules stand now they are just too vulnerable to be of much use if your opponent has a reasonable amount of ranged anti-tank.

I agree, I have been under whelmed with the stormraven. If it's a gunboat then why the low av +assault ramp/transport space you won't be using? If it's a transport then why all the guns you won't be firing?

Jack-of-all-trade units aren't nearly as good as those with clear rolls in this game.

As far as the TL-LC vs. Las/Plas debate goes, I've done the math, and I believe the slight drop in effectiveness when shooting beyond 24" or against AV14 is worth it, when you consider the extra versatility the TL-Plasmagun gives you. The new GK codex really helps tilt things in favor of the Las/Plas, and I expect the new Necron codex will eventually tilt things even further.

For the record, I seem to roll 2's to hit with my Lascannons a lot, and it sucks, but I've made a personal decision to always trust the math. Your experience may vary.

I also dispute the idea that an Assault Cannon is an anti-infantry weapon. Against 4+ save, T4 or worse, you can expect a little less than three kills if the target doesn't have cover. Against MEQ, you can expect about 1.38 dead without cover. Heavy Bolter sponsons will chip in another 3.33 dead against T3, 2.67 against T4, .89 against MEQ. So, at best, a Baal Predator will kill a little over 6 models on average a turn. Not terrible, but that's only 34 points of Orks, and we're assuming no cover. As I see it, the primary target for a Baal Predator is light vehicles, with infantry as a backup target. Perhaps this explains my prejudice against HB sponsons.

Vyndetta, if you want to use Stormravens, I think it would be better to have 3 than to have 2 plus a LRR. A 3 Stormraven list is doable at 2000, although you end up really light on Troops.

Yeah, The SRs are going to have to wait till ard boyz. Its a little tight to try them at 1850.

Ladies and Gents! I do have some news on the list. I tried this list again one of the best local players just today and here we have it.

I did go with the Las/TL plas turrets and I (last second change) put 2 power fists in 2 of the RAS instead of the melta and melta bombs. That change will have to be tried out. It worked pretty well.. Dont know if I like it enought to keep it. Well, my opponent was player SW with the dreaded TWC! I did manage to kill it . The game ended in a draw. It was really interesting watching things unfold. I may be able to get him to post the list on here. He was relentless and as I mentioned, one of the best local players.

I really like this list and its now my focus in getting painted. I thank you all for all the input!! The next list will come soon. It will be my ard boys list!

It would be interesting to see what the sw player took. Good job to you!

The assault cannon issue: as an artist, I'll admit my strengths do not include statistics . However, I've played a ton of games (since '88) and have focused on what works over time. I've found that the a.cannon consistently chews light to medium infantry to pieces. Solo it's not stunningly wonderful, but combined with the hb sponsons, it creates an impressive volume of fire; especially with rending. This is very deadly to smaller squads since they are forced to start allocating wounds to special weapons/vets right off the bat.

I suggest trying them out (2 baals) and see how it goes.

Moopy: I did try the list most recently posted. Only thing I did different was, instead of a melta and melta bombs on the 4 RAS, I put 2 power fists with them (units not with the Lib). I think the power fists would be better in the event they do get in assault with a dread or something bigger. The fist would allow them to live longer or atleast take what ever out with it.

I will get the other guy to post his list. From what I remember it was:

Wolf Lord
TWC x5
3 units of longfangs? 5 rockets in 2 and 5 LC in the other.
3 units of something else (troops) in rhinos
2-3 of an IC (was an elite choice)
rune priest

Im sure there was something else but I cant remember.