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The topic says it all. Is it 6 or 12?

6", same as ANY VEHICLE anywhere.

Being fast, open topped or green makes no difference. You may only go 6" if you want your passengers to fire.

Clock resets in 5......4......

6"
Whether a vehicle is fast or not has no bearing on the passengers when it comes to shooting.

Thank you, thought that was the case, just wanted to make sure.

I cant find the rule for either, but could you move 12" with a fast vehicle then disembark to be able to shoot?

Helixfire wrote:I cant find the rule for either, but could you move 12" with a fast vehicle then disembark to be able to shoot?

Yes. If any vehicle moves 12" (not just fast), the passengers can disembark and still shoot. Page 67 of the rulebook.





Edit: for clarification.

12"...always have played that if the vehicle can fire so can its passengers since there are no fire points on the transport.

Which is wrong. Read the fire points rules which are the ONLY RULES you have which allow passengers to fire. If you claim they dont apply, you have no permission to fire even while stationary

This is an *explicit* change from 4th edition.

DaOrkz1977 wrote:12"...always have played that if the vehicle can fire so can its passengers since there are no fire points on the transport.

Open-topped vehicles have no set fire points. That doesn't mean that the Fire Point rules don't apply... If that were the case, they wouldn't be able to fire in the first place, since the Fire Point rules are where you get that permission in the first place. It simply means that they are not restricted to firing from specific places on the vehicle.

Open-topped vehicles have no set fire points. That doesn't mean that the Fire Point rules don't apply... If that were the case, they wouldn't be able to fire in the first place, since the Fire Point rules are where you get that permission in the first place. It simply means that they are not restricted to firing from specific places on the vehicle.

Pg. 70 Rulebook

Open-Topped vehicles do not have specific fire points.
So no number of fire points

Instead, all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle.

So in place of fire points rules, you use above, which no where does it say that you can only move 6".

Yet you still have to use the fire points rules to work out the other mechanics of firing.

Id suggest you search on this, instead of all the arguments showing you wrong being rehashed here.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Being fast, open topped or green makes no difference.

However, being red does help. Orks vehicles with a red paint job can move 7" and only count as moving 6", so their passengers can still fire.

DaOrkz1977 wrote:
Pg. 70 Rulebook

Open-Topped vehicles do not have specific fire points.
So no number of fire points

Instead, all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle.

So in place of fire points rules, you use above, which no where does it say that you can only move 6".

pg.66 Rulebook

Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at Cruising speed that turn.

I'm not sure how you can wiggle out of that.

True, but again - specific rule there.

There needs to be a specific rule overriding the limitation of moving only 6"

DaOrkz - if it helps - reread the statement. It does not say they have *no* firepoints, just no *set number* of them. Meaning you still have "firepoints"

DaOrkz1977 wrote:So in place of fire points rules, you use above, which no where does it say that you can only move 6".

It's not in place of the fire points rules. It's in place of set fire points. Since the rule you just quoted is in the fire points rules, if that rule negates the fire points rules, it negates itself.

One should also not what the rulebook has to say about the vehicle types it lists after going through the general vehicle usage. It goes like this: vehicle type X follows the normal rules for vehicles, with the exceptions and additions given below. That means the vehicle entry needs to mention being different in order to be different.

Otherwise type: Tank, OT and Skimmer vehicles can't shoot at all since it's not mentioned under their entry. Tanks and Skimmers also make no mention of passengers...

DaOrkz1977 wrote:12"...always have played that if the vehicle can fire so can its passengers since there are no fire points on the transport.

DaOrkz1977 wrote:

Open-topped vehicles have no set fire points. That doesn't mean that the Fire Point rules don't apply... If that were the case, they wouldn't be able to fire in the first place, since the Fire Point rules are where you get that permission in the first place. It simply means that they are not restricted to firing from specific places on the vehicle.

Pg. 70 Rulebook
Open-Topped vehicles do not have specific fire points.
So no number of fire points
Instead, all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle.
So in place of fire points rules, you use above, which no where does it say that you can only move 6".

If that's the case, why is there any restriction on how fast the vehicle can move and have the passengers shoot? Where have you got the 12" limit from? If what you say were correct then there is no restriction.

Either there is no restriction or the normal fire point rules apply except for the exception that all passengers are allowed to shoot.

What you have proposed is simply made up.

DaOrkz1977 wrote:12"...always have played that if the vehicle can fire so can its passengers since there are no fire points on the transport.

Just a guess, based on your forum name, but do your armies consist of battlewagons full of burna boyz? There was an ork player in our area who used those and was moving and shooting at 12" because we all thought fast vehicles allowed you to do that. Needless to say he was very upset when the Dark Eldar codex came out and we all caught on that you couldn't do that!

A better question would be when Battlewagons became Fast vehicles!

Ok, so I'm still confused a little, I have a friend who plays DE and he argues he can move and shoot 12, because being fast lets you move up to 12, and shoot all vehicle weapons, including defensive weapons. He states the codex says embarked troops count as defensive weapons, so they can shoot at 12.

Along with that he says all raiders, venoms, ravagers have the arieal assault rule, which means he can move up to 18 and fire everything on the vehicles.

Is that true?

Thanks

knightpredator wrote:Ok, so I'm still confused a little, I have a friend who plays DE and he argues he can move and shoot 12, because being fast lets you move up to 12, and shoot all vehicle weapons, including defensive weapons. He states the codex says embarked troops count as defensive weapons, so they can shoot at 12.

Along with that he says all raiders, venoms, ravagers have the arieal assault rule, which means he can move up to 18 and fire everything on the vehicles.

Is that true?

Thanks

I don't have the DE dex on me but I don't remember it saying passangers count as defensive weapons. Can anyone confirm and cite the page?

Knight predator - NO SUCH RULE EXISTS

If i ndoubt ask to see their codex, and get them to point the rule out. When they cant do so you'll be much happier.

I'm pretty sure only the Razorwing and Voidraven have the Aerial Assault rule. And your friend is infering a rule where no rule exists. The vehicle's weapons will be split into defensive and non-defensive, it does not relate to the passengers.

Listen to nosferatu1001, I've not seen him be wrong yet.

EDIT: Ah, ninja'd by the aforementioned gentleman.

Htj - ravagers as well. They can fire everything after moving 12"

I've been wrong more than once

Ravagers, Voidravens, and Razorwings have the Aerial Assault rule.

Raiders, as fast vehicles with only one weapon, can also move 12" and shoot every weapon.

Poison weapons that belong to vehicles count as defensive weapons, so Venoms can move 12" and shoot every weapon.

The Dais is the only vehicle in the codex that can not move 6"<X><12" and still fire everything.

Units inside do not have any special rule. The only thing I can think of is a misreading of the rule that I stated above for Venoms.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Htj - ravagers as well. They can fire everything after moving 12"

I've been wrong more than once

Well, I've not seen it, so you're good there.

Ah yes, forgot about Ravagers. Mainly due to a distaste for them. I find them ugly, so I'd never field one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I've been wrong more than once

Resist the urge to sig. . .

Hey, just because Ive been agreeing with you recenty!

/contrary hat on

knightpredator wrote:Ok, so I'm still confused a little, I have a friend who plays DE and he argues he can move and shoot 12, because being fast lets you move up to 12, and shoot all vehicle weapons, including defensive weapons. He states the codex says embarked troops count as defensive weapons, so they can shoot at 12.

Along with that he says all raiders, venoms, ravagers have the arieal assault rule, which means he can move up to 18 and fire everything on the vehicles.

Is that true?

Thanks

Ask him to show you the rules where passenger shooting is classified as defensive. Also, ask him to show you the rules where any rule regarding the transports weapons in anyway impacts the passengers.

Otherwise, the rules are that no passenger may shoot from any vehicle that moves at cruising speed or greater. Fast and/or open topped make no exceptions to those rules.

Homer