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First off does lemartes count as 1 of the 5 death company required for a death company dreadnought. Secondly it says on the death company page the death company do not count as scoring but it does not say this on Lemartes page so does he count as scoring?

Lemartes is a SC for the DC so he would not score. I would say yes he is a model toward the limit. Don't have my codex in front of me to read the exact wording.

I'm pretty sure that is a no.

I dont have the BA codex but I play vs a BA a lot.

Does it say on lemartes page that he is a scoring unit?

If not, the basic rule of the DC still applies (not a scoring unit)

Lemartes is an upgrade for the Death Company so he should sure count toward a Dreadnought.

No, he can't score even if he's the last one left. He's got the same Black Rage special rule they have - Rage and "never scoring".

NVM, need a delete button for our own post, lol

**EDIT: Just asked my friend, I totally misunderstood that part of Lemartes.

To have a DC Dreadnought, you need 5 Death Company models. Lemartes is not a Death Company model, he's a Lemartes.

He's not an upgrade character. He is part of the unit, but you do not "upgrade" a death company model to Lemartes for x points. You include Lemartes to the unit for x points. So he doesn't count as a death company model.

Also, he loses his scoring status by having the "The Black Rage" special rule.

He's not an upgrade character. He is part of the unit, but you do not "upgrade" a death company model to Lemartes for x points. You include Lemartes to the unit for x points.

Mind providing a page number and rules quote to back that up? Because if you were to read the rules for characters on pages 47-49 of the 5th edition rulebook it is clear that not only is Lemartes an upgrade character, he is also a Death Company model.

Ghaz wrote:

He's not an upgrade character. He is part of the unit, but you do not "upgrade" a death company model to Lemartes for x points. You include Lemartes to the unit for x points.

Mind providing a page number and rules quote to back that up? Because if you were to read the rules for characters on pages 47-49 of the 5th edition rulebook it is clear that not only is Lemartes an upgrade character, he is also a Death Company model.

Blood Angels Codex, Page 88 wrote:The Death Company can be led by Lemartes for 150pts

And how does that support your claims? It doesn't. The fact remains that Lemartes is an upgrade character for the Death Company and that makes him a Death Company model.

Lemartes is not an upgrade character. Upgrade character would imply that you pay the model cost as well as the upgrade cost. IE. Arjac Rockfist from the SW codex. You pay for a wolfguard then upgrade him to Arjac.

Ghaz wrote:And how does that support your claims? It doesn't. The fact remains that Lemartes is an upgrade character for the Death Company and that makes him a Death Company model.

first, can someone quote word for word the wording about the death comapny dreadnought rule?

Is it that you can take a DC dread when the DC unit has 5 DCs in it or when a DC unit contains 5 models? If it is the later, then lemartes count and no arguments can be made against it.

If it is the 1st one. Lemartes is a DEATH COMPANY chaplain is he not? He is a death company model too and is unique to that squad (cannot be an IC or used in another squad) so IMO, he would count.

Ghaz wrote:And how does that support your claims? It doesn't. The fact remains that Lemartes is an upgrade character for the Death Company and that makes him a Death Company model.

Are you paying X points to "upgrade" a death company into Lemartes? No. You are paying X points to add a Lemartes to a squad that previously consisted solely of death company.

Now, since he doesn't have the independent character special rule, he cannot be targeted specifically by attacks and will be part of the squad for purposes of allocation. However, he is no more a "Death Company Model" than a IG Commissar attached to an infantry squad considered a "Guardsmen Model" or a "Sergeant Model".

Valkyrie wrote:

Blood Angels Codex, Page 88 wrote:The Death Company can be led by Lemartes for 150pts

There must be a Death Company in the first place for Lemartes to lead. The way I see it you must first buy a legal DC squad (5 models min I think) and then add Lemartes to it.

Unsure on his scoring status Im afraid

I looked trhought eh BA codex and here are my thoughts about this.

1st: Can Lemartes be counted as a DC model?
No, if you look in the Codex, lemartes has an entry of his own. He is an add-on, not a DC model.

To make the difference clear here is the exact wording for Lemartes:
The Deatch Company can include Lemartes.
This sentence shows that Lemartes is not a DeathCompany model but can be included in it.


2nd: Can Lemartes be counted for the DC dread?

Again that is a no because of the wording of the DC dread entry:
You can inlcude one Death COmpany Dreadnought for every five Death Company models in your army.

It specifies that the models you count have to be death company models and not a unit of DC that has 5 models in it. Since it specifies DC models, Lemartes cannot be counted.


3rd: Can Lemartes count as a point scoring unit:

Again, no since he is subject to black rage and black rage specifies that the DC is not a scoring unit (He is part of the DC unit while not being a DC model)

Are you paying X points to "upgrade" a death company into Lemartes? No. You are paying X points to add a Lemartes to a squad that previously consisted solely of death company.

And once again, please provide an actual RULE to back up your claims that he's only an upgrade character if you're upgrading an individual model. You will find no such rule. Lemartes is an upgrade character as he is an upgrade for the Death Company unit.

Ghaz wrote:

Are you paying X points to "upgrade" a death company into Lemartes? No. You are paying X points to add a Lemartes to a squad that previously consisted solely of death company.

And once again, please provide an actual RULE to back up your claims that he's only an upgrade character if you're upgrading an individual model. You will find no such rule. Lemartes is an upgrade character as he is an upgrade for the Death Company unit.

did you ignore my post above??

Lemartes has an entry of his own and is being added in the DC. To be an upgradable character you have to actually upgrade something. I'll use the Ork nob example with the boyz mob. You can take 30 boyz and UPGRAGE one of these boyz to a nob. That is an upgraded character. You do not take 29 boyz than add a Nob.

if I go according to what you are saying right now, a Legal DC could be made of 2 DC plus Lemartes (take 3 DC than upgrade one of the DC to lemartes) which it cannot . You need the basic 3 DC than you can add Lemartes for a total of 4 models in theunit. So he is an Add-on and not an upgrade.

And you've not once posted anything worth reading. Once again, try supporting your position with ACTUAL RULES. If you can not post a page number and a rules quote saying that all upgrade characters must be upgraded from an existing model in the squad then all you are doing is wasting my time.

Ghaz wrote:And you've not once posted anything worth reading. Once again, try supporting your position with ACTUAL RULES. If you can not post a page number and a rules quote saying that all upgrade characters must be upgraded from an existing model in the squad then all you are doing is wasting my time.

can you quote the opposite??

I am basing myself on the CODEX I have read, I do not have the BRB on me so I cannot quote a rule. But, when a model can be upgraded to something else, GW is usually really clear on that. Can you prove your point that Lemartes is an upgradable character with actual rules. The codex even says you can ADD Lemartes to the DC not upgrade a DC to lemartes. I actually quoted the codex a couple of times. The rules you are talking about on apge 47 to 49, let's read theam.

It talks about upgradable character and gives for example unit champions or leader. If it was only that. YES, you would be right. . After that, on pg 49 of the BRB, there is a nice little section about special characters. They are unique, so is Lemartes a DC, no he is Lemartes, Special and unique character. He can be part of the DC and cannot leave it but he is NOT and upgradable character. If he was an upgradable character, you could use him in more than one DC (if you take astorath as an HQ) which you cannot because he is unique.

Thanks for pointing me the page where the rules countered what you said btw.

Serder wrote:
After that, on pg 49 of the BRB, there is a nice little section about special characters. They are unique, so is Lemartes a DC, no he is Lemartes, Special and unique character. He can be part of the DC and cannot leave it but he is NOT and upgradable character. If he was an upgradable character, you could use him in more than one DC (if you take astorath as an HQ) which you cannot because he is unique.

This

Options for units in the form of "<name>......+X points" are upgrades. A characters bought this way are an upgrade character. A character bought this way with a name is a unique upgrade character.

After that, on pg 49 of the BRB, there is a nice little section about special characters. They are unique, so is Lemartes a DC, no he is Lemartes, Special and unique character. He can be part of the DC and cannot leave it but he is NOT and upgradable character. If he was an upgradable character, you could use him in more than one DC (if you take astorath as an HQ) which you cannot because he is unique.

Did you even read page 49?

Special characters can be either independent or upgrade characters, but each one of them is unique...

Page 49 of the BRB does seem to suggest that he would be an upgrade. As Ghaz pointed out above, it says that a special character can either be independent or an upgrade. Lesmartes is not independent so according to the BRB he would be an upgrades.

Although the wording in his entry in the Blood Angels codex does seem to suggest otherwise, and I could see someone making a case for specific over general.

In the games I play with my friends we always just count a special upgrade character as one of the units with special stats, similar to how a sergeant can have different stats than the rest of his unit. If I was playing my friend, who plays Blood Angels, and he wanted to use 4 Death Company + Lesmartes and include a Death Company Dreadnought I would let him, because I would also consider characters in my codex like Snikrot or Badrukk to be a special Kommando or Flash Git respectively.

This is just my opinion though, and beyond the rule on p.49 I have nothing to back this up with :/

Both have rage which means neither can do objectives