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You're a Mathhammer warrior, friend. Not someone who actually plays the game much. Vacuums are nowhere to get a solid grasp of how a unit performs, sorry to say.
I don't listen to your opinions anyway because of your sole reliance on Mathhamer to discount anyone else's argument is, to put it simply, silly. I just felt the need to point it out, glad I did so as well.
Mathhammer says Kastelan Robots with Cawl should be topping tournaments, but on the field they are good but have a niche role, easily outmaneuvered, static, predictable.
I love how you see 1 part of my post and start typing. If you think mathammer is useless - you do not have the correct mindset for the game. Mathammer for me is a secondary tool. Tournament results are the most important thing. When a new unit comes out - I compare them to similar units.
People who say mathammer is useless don't understand how to use it. "Oh it's best damage and durability per point! I'll win every game! *in game sees that the thing can't move and has 6'' range* WTF MATHAMMER SUCKS!". You have to take everything into account. "So this guy is very bellow average offensivelly, but he has great durability. What else? Deepstrike as a single model(hard to deny), psychic denial, single model. Maybe not bad? Oh, topping tournaments as well? Great then" (Cullexus)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/16 04:58:13
If I'm getting this correctly, hoplites can get a 3+ invun save in combat with the Acquisition at any costs? Would this or stygies fulgurites that have killed a unit that was already near an objective for a 2++ 5+++ be better, especially since the fulgurite blob now has 60 attacks.
Wulfey wrote: My gaming group is all in on the flamers over the stormbolters. You will never deep strike these things. The drills are strictly for adding wounds to infiltrating STYGIES bombs. The drills with flamers are 154 points for D3 melta shots and 2 heavy flamers. They have 8" base movement. If you infiltrate them with a package of troops inside, they are guaranteed to be in heavy flamer range on turn 1 whether you go first or second, and the overwatch is kinda nice if you go second. The drills with flamers also threaten fliers in a way that staff priests can never do, so they bring something to the table that makes staff priests even better. The drills are 10 T8 wounds with a -1 STYGIES to be hit bonus for 150 points, that is well worth losing some priests. Too bad they are 75 pounds. They even give staff priests another 3" of movement to make that first turn charge even easier. The guys running the hardcore staff priests builds will be running these guys as STYGIES and putting them right in their opponents faces every game.
2 questions.
1. One drill per army at 2k is the sensible amount?
2. Is a squad of just 12 electropriests that good?? Assuming the drill did it’s job and let’s you get into combat does that balance the losing 8 priests??
The choice is between:
(1) 20 priests
(2) 12 priests + Drill
These are both very similar in points. If you always went first, the 20 priests should do more damage and be more reliable than the 12+D. But if you are the kind of guy who blows 3 going first rolls in a row somehow even with the +1 and also cant seize the initiative, then the drill starts to make more sense. If you end up second with 20 priests, you face a hard choice of where to put the priests. Put them 9" away and now they are 100% in range of all enemy firepower and will be charged. Put them 15" away and they might not make their charge on your turn. Priests have a good 5++/5fnp, but they are T3. So everything your opponent has that shoots is viable against them.
If you take the 12+D, now you don't even have to think. Just put the drill 9" away every damned time. Or put it somewhere a little sneakier if it fits behind terrain. Your opponent now has to shoot a T8 lump of metal. Yeah, if he has mass meltas, this is a little worse than 8 priests. But against bolters? Yeah, give me the drill. The drill even gets the -1 to be hit like the priests. And if your opponent charges the drill? Fine. Let him. twin flamers get another turn of shooting. I would put the drills end to end in a line to make wrapping around them harder. And the disembark gets another 3" on your charge. Also, the drill itself has 6 attacks at str14,-4, flat3 and has some mortal wound shenanigans against tough targets. And it has a D3 melta gun! What a joke. That stupid thing shoots as hard as an armiger but manages to fight better. If the drill dies, then it died tougher than 8 priests against anything less than str8. If it lives, then it eats the overwatch for your priests and does a little flaming on the way in.
Yeah I suppose the durability exchange makes sense. Plus the chance to have a transport is very tempting
kastelen wrote: If I'm getting this correctly, hoplites can get a 3+ invun save in combat with the Acquisition at any costs? Would this or stygies fulgurites that have killed a unit that was already near an objective for a 2++ 5+++ be better, especially since the fulgurite blob now has 60 attacks.
It takes 135 bolter shots to delete 20 Hoplites with Shroudpsalm + Aquisition at Any Cost.
20 Hoplites costs 180 points.
Hoplites could get rerolls from an Enginseer with Omniscient Mask and/or +2 to hit from Conquerer Doctrina Imperative.
It takes 180 bolter shots to delete 20 Fulgurites with Stygies dogma + Siphoned Vigour + Aquisition at Any Cost.
20 Fulgurites costs 320 points.
Fulgurites can fight twice with Zealous Congregation.
Hoplites are more efficient, points-wise and can dish out some mortal wounds (especially if you can get the 2+Sv), meanwhile Fulgurites are more durable if you can set them up, they hand mortal wounds out like candy, and have far more potential damage if you invest the CP.
Wulfey wrote: My gaming group is all in on the flamers over the stormbolters. You will never deep strike these things. The drills are strictly for adding wounds to infiltrating STYGIES bombs. The drills with flamers are 154 points for D3 melta shots and 2 heavy flamers. They have 8" base movement. If you infiltrate them with a package of troops inside, they are guaranteed to be in heavy flamer range on turn 1 whether you go first or second, and the overwatch is kinda nice if you go second. The drills with flamers also threaten fliers in a way that staff priests can never do, so they bring something to the table that makes staff priests even better. The drills are 10 T8 wounds with a -1 STYGIES to be hit bonus for 150 points, that is well worth losing some priests. Too bad they are 75 pounds. They even give staff priests another 3" of movement to make that first turn charge even easier. The guys running the hardcore staff priests builds will be running these guys as STYGIES and putting them right in their opponents faces every game.
1) Are you sure you are allowed to do that? The Stygies VIII stratagem does not say that you can infiltrate with units embarked inside. It may seem implicit, but every deployment rule that allows for it explicitly states it.
Example:
Furthermore, all of the deep strike rules on transports also states it explicitly, including the Drill. It does not seem to be a generally applicable rule. We should definitely request an FAQ on this.
2) You would have to disembark before the transport moves. So your Fulgurites won't be fighting the turn they infiltrate, thus contradicting the point of infiltration.
3) The Drill does not have amazing shooting, so the opportunity cost of protecting your Fulgurites for one turn is immense.
4) Even if you infiltrate them, Heavy Flamers are still overpriced for what they bring to the table. You are investing 1 CP and 30 additional points in each.
Going back to this, Stygies infiltration isn't exactly a deep strike, the unit arrives at the start of the battle round but before the first turn begins like Raven Guard's Strike from the Shadows. As far as I know those only apply to infantry while Stygies infiltration applies to any Ad Mech unit so we have no precedent for the same rule applying to transports but RAW infiltrating the drill should be kosher. Some kind of FAQ to clear it up may be in order either way.
I will admit that it is a gray area. However, just looking at Screaming Jets suggests that RAI is that when you use this sort of stratagem on a transport, the embarked units do not remain inside unless it says so.
U02dah4 wrote: Stygies strategem works on any stygies unit its legal
You can use the infiltration stratagem on the Drill. My point is that I don't think the embarked unit also gets to be infiltrated. Other stratagems and rules say when you can keep them embarked.
Because Screaming Jets and all deep-striking/infiltrating transports have rules explicitly spelling it out as an exception. If GW believed that being able to deploy embarked is implicit to the mechanic, why would they do this so consistently?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/16 13:34:46
Suzuteo wrote: Because Screaming Jets and all deep-striking/infiltrating transports have rules explicitly spelling it out as an exception. If GW believed that being able to deploy embarked is implicit to the mechanic, why would they do this so consistently?
I think it's more from lack of overlap between the two companies
Suzuteo wrote: Because Screaming Jets and all deep-striking/infiltrating transports have rules explicitly spelling it out as an exception. If GW believed that being able to deploy embarked is implicit to the mechanic, why would they do this so consistently?
Infiltration is delayed deployment, not deep strike. If your grey area stands then it would also stand when deploying a transport with units inside.
Can you fine tech priests critique this idea I came up with. Its 1750 points for an official warhammer tournament setting. Do you guys think this would be fun and reasonably effective?
Alpha melee strike and some ranged daka in the back. Any thoughts?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/16 18:47:59
Can you fine tech priests critique this idea I came up with. Its 1750 points for an official warhammer tournament setting. Do you guys think this would be fun and reasonably effective?
Alpha melee strike and some ranged daka in the back. Any thoughts?
I think it'll be fun and reasonably effective. Big hordes might be a problem. As will ruins in general and your dearth of obsec but it could certainly work. Stygies might not be the best forgeworld here though, I'll throw a shout out to my own, Graia, for still fairly durable troops but a sort of deny the witch, something that could come in handy.
Also, 1743 points? Chuck another ranger on there!
EDIT: I'm tired, ignore the graia thing haha. Obviously you don't want that here with the priests and dragoons!
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/16 20:26:17
Suzuteo wrote: Because Screaming Jets and all deep-striking/infiltrating transports have rules explicitly spelling it out as an exception. If GW believed that being able to deploy embarked is implicit to the mechanic, why would they do this so consistently?
However, the Tallarn Ambush stratagem for Astra Militarum, does not have any unit type restrictions, other than it can't be used on more than 1 unit of vehicles. I believe it was previously decided/ruled, that if you Ambushed a Chimera, any unit that was embarked inside it would also remain in the transport for the purpose of "outflanking".
The excemption could just be a clarification. Speculateing on GW's intention is subjective so you go with the RAW untill they FAQ and so it is permitted.
Suzuteo wrote: Because Screaming Jets and all deep-striking/infiltrating transports have rules explicitly spelling it out as an exception. If GW believed that being able to deploy embarked is implicit to the mechanic, why would they do this so consistently?
However, the Tallarn Ambush stratagem for Astra Militarum, does not have any unit type restrictions, other than it can't be used on more than 1 unit of vehicles. I believe it was previously decided/ruled, that if you Ambushed a Chimera, any unit that was embarked inside it would also remain in the transport for the purpose of "outflanking".
I totally forgot that Ambush didn't only affect Russes. Anyhow, I looked up the FAQ, and it doesn't say anything other than amending the Ambush rule to have max one vehicle.
Anyhow, doing some research, the Guard community has two minds about this.
1) Chimera and 2 Heavy Weapons = 3 units
2) Chimera and 2 Heavy Weapons = 1 unit
#1 seems to be the accepted answer. Why? First, because the transport rule specifies that they can be embarked INSTEAD of being deployed separately. If the unit was not eligible to be deployed in this manner, then they cannot be deployed separately. Second, because it would be a loophole around keywords. In theory, if only the transport is being affected by the stratagem, you would only need Tallarn transports. You can put infantry of any regiment inside. Hell, you can even put a ton of Auxilia or Inquisitors inside.
So it seems that for our case, we would have to use 2 CP to infiltrate both the Vanguard and the Drill, and both must be Stygies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/17 13:20:13
Can you fine tech priests critique this idea I came up with. Its 1750 points for an official warhammer tournament setting. Do you guys think this would be fun and reasonably effective?
Alpha melee strike and some ranged daka in the back. Any thoughts?
1)You won't get +3 CP with armiger's in super heavy as far as I understood in codex. Sad but true .
2) better take 4 less priests and +1 dragoon. With a knight detach you LL need the CP and Dragoons are less CP hungry.
3) I like the list same we can't take the CP!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/17 23:26:13
Transports with units embarked within them also all count as one unit during deployment, that's why transports are nice for reducing number of deployments. I agree, I think it's 1 CP to infiltrate the drill and the contents together.
U02dah4 wrote: A chimera is one drop reguardless of the number of internal units - that comes up a lot tourneywise due to the importance of first turn roll off.
So no 1 cp stygies one drill reguardless of contents
I think this is irrelevant. The deployed embarked rule is a replacement effect. It doesn't change the fact that there are two units, even if they are being deployed together.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Transports with units embarked within them also all count as one unit during deployment, that's why transports are nice for reducing number of deployments. I agree, I think it's 1 CP to infiltrate the drill and the contents together.
Okay, try to follow my logic:
1) All units need to be deployed (or "set up," as the phrasing provides)
2) Clandestine Infiltration sets up a unit in reserve, to be set up again at the start of the first round
3) The replacement effect occurs when in advance of when both units need to be set up (the phrasing is "instead of being set up separately")
So how can I embark the unit that IS NOT set up in reserve into the transport that IS set up in reserve? Would not the unit that is not in reserve have to be set up on the battlefield?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/18 07:51:03
Can you fine tech priests critique this idea I came up with. Its 1750 points for an official warhammer tournament setting. Do you guys think this would be fun and reasonably effective?
Alpha melee strike and some ranged daka in the back. Any thoughts?
1)You won't get +3 CP with armiger's in super heavy as far as I understood in codex. Sad but true .
2) better take 4 less priests and +1 dragoon. With a knight detach you LL need the CP and Dragoons are less CP hungry.
3) I like the list same we can't take the CP!
Cheers.
Yes the Armiger CP issue is a bit frustrating. Perhaps there is a slim bit of hope they might revise in the upcoming FAQ. I want to take the little knights but the CP is the stumbling block
Include "HAMMERS" in the comment box at checkout with a bionic item in your cart to get free hammers. I think you also need to buy €15 worth of stuff too.
I immediately bought 35 bionic skulls and a ton of gothic bionic arms and shoulders. Going to make some cyborg zombie Electro-Priests. (If anyone is curious: Mixed Flagellant and Anvil bionic gothic arms and shoulders + Mantic ghoul legs + Bloodletter torsos + Anvil bionic skull heads)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/18 17:40:42
I think these drills could make an insane difference in admech placing at tournaments. I'm gonna talk about these from the context of ITC tournament play, so keep that in mind.
One of the best things we have going for us in ITC is stygies electro priests. The default was to take 19 electro priests (as 20 gave up 2 secondary points). So the drill having 12 really only looses you 7 priests. In the ITC, taking 4 robots or 4 dragoons causes you to give up full gangbusters points. The priests fill the mortal wounds role that cawl with robots does, and the melee role the dragoons do. The only downside of the priests was infiltrating them and going second against mobile firepower or dedicated horde assault. The drill mitigates this so much.
linds14sr20det wrote: I think these drills could make an insane difference in admech placing at tournaments. I'm gonna talk about these from the context of ITC tournament play, so keep that in mind.
One of the best things we have going for us in ITC is stygies electro priests. The default was to take 19 electro priests (as 20 gave up 2 secondary points). So the drill having 12 really only looses you 7 priests. In the ITC, taking 4 robots or 4 dragoons causes you to give up full gangbusters points. The priests fill the mortal wounds role that cawl with robots does, and the melee role the dragoons do. The only downside of the priests was infiltrating them and going second against mobile firepower or dedicated horde assault. The drill mitigates this so much.
