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For those playing orks: WAAAAAGH!
For all the other players: hello!

First of all, english is not my native language and I haven't used it for quite some time, so I apologise for each and evey mistake I make.

Ok, so it may seem like it's a 'whine-thread'. Maybe a bit But it's more about you as a community, helping me out with understanding how does codexrk work in current state of the game.

I played orks for quite some time now, and it seems like with every new book (starting with IG thru BA, SW, DE and now GK) Orks are becoming less and less competitive. I often play against SW/DE and while both armies have different play style, both of them are kicking my every time we play (and not due to some major mistakes I made). I tried BW spam, trukk spam, foot orks with killakans (NOTE: where I play KFF gives 5+ cover to vehicles and no special characters are allowed at tournaments). They all just seem to melt when confronted with SW longfangs (thou I think what hurts me the most is the fact that boyz cannot really take on g(r)eyhunters ).

I'm really thinking about switching army to DE (every time someone pikes up one of SM army, a kitty is killed!). Do Orks really lost the edge of being a competitive army, and now can be played purely for fun? Or maybe I'm making some major mistake in my thinking process and there actually is a playstyle that can take on SW/BA/GK and DE armies?

Cheers!

Wow - no SCs? How....backward looking.

Orks have certainly been blunted by a lot of 5th ed armies, but can still be competitive. Shame no SCs as you lose a good LF hunting unit in snikrot

Agreed with Nos, no SCs is kinda harsh. I don't see how Long Fang spam beats BW spam though, even with a 5+ cover you should be fine vs. S8. Once the BWs are in range the shoota boyz (you are running shootas in them, yes?) tend to badly maul anything they get their sights on that isn't a vehicle.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Once the BWs are in range the shoota boyz (you are running shootas in them, yes?)

Shootas in wagons? Rly I didn't ever think of that... Always thought sluggas are the way to go in wagons and shootas are the ones to run behind kan wall.

As for long fangs with S8, remember that they still have meltas on wolf guards/land speeders and lascannons on razor lasplas.

Bottoms up!

The two shots on the way in are worth more than the one extra attack, and it means you have a litltemore threat range as well.

yakshi wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Once the BWs are in range the shoota boyz (you are running shootas in them, yes?)

Shootas in wagons? Rly I didn't ever think of that... Always thought sluggas are the way to go in wagons and shootas are the ones to run behind kan wall.

As for long fangs with S8, remember that they still have meltas on wolf guards/land speeders and lascannons on razor lasplas.

Bottoms up!

Whoa, if you haven't tried shootas I suggest you do so immediately! 19 shoota boyz (last spot is so a Big Mek can jump in if his main BW goes boom) on average puts out around 6 wounds vs. T4. The thing with torrent of fire weapons, though, is that when you roll better than average you vaporise your target. With armour 14 and the 5+ cover there's not too much stuff that can stop you from shooting. The best (worst for me when I play my local Ork) is that all that massed S4 actually works against Land Speeders that get close. As for the lascannons, a non-TL lascan at BS4 has roughly a (0.5*(1/6)*(1/3)+0.5*(1/6)*((1/3)*2)/3)*2) or 0.05555556 chance per shot to immobilise or destroy a BW with 5+ cover. The weakness of Battlewagons are their sides though, so you'd better defend those.

Deffkoptas can work wonders for facing Longfangs, too.

Scouting up and landing an assault can tie up a unit of 'Fangs for a turn or two. Even with counterattack, their 11 attacks are going to hit 5/6 times, only wounding with ~2 of those, and you'll save ~1, so not even enough to remove a model.

Large mobs of lootas are very helpful, too. Against SW, you can vaporize a unit of Longfangs with a little luck, or at least remove some of their offensive oomph. It also forces them to make a decision between firing at the Lootas with frag rounds or at the Battlewagons closing in on them.

Against Dark Eldar, putting Lootas -in- the Battlewagons can buy you a turn or two of shooting, as their splinter weapons can't hurt the AV 14, and by the time their blasters are in range, you've (Hopefully) thinned their numbers some so you can mount an effective assault.

No SCs is very lame. SCs are no longer OP-- banning them even removes some entire builds from some codexes.

Orks are still very much competitive, but a really optimized tournament DE list can wipe any army out. Battlewagons with deffrollas are seriously one of the best tank hunting units in the game, and can even mulch Monoliths with relative ease. A bunch of Battlwagons with KFF Meks in them and lots of shoota boyz or Nobz geared up with unique wargear, and you've got the core of a tough army.

Orks are indeed competetive. The 'no special characters' rule is pretty bizarre, though. I wonder why they'd do that?

I can only presume its a hangover from crazy 3rd ed era, when you had some truly broken characters.

Sadly its still the case in the fantasy world - most Uk tourneys i see still ban SCs.

I think its a good idea really. I personally believe that too many players rely on SC like Ghaz or Calgar or Lysander to do their dirty work. Its pretty easy to throw Ghaz in a BW and strait line it towards the hardest thing out there and then throw him at it. 7 STR10 attacks will do that to things, specially when he has a 2++ when you do it. Personally, I get annoyed when I see people bring in SC, I still play against them, and its not like Im jaded or anything, I just think they are more a crutch then anything else. I can take a MegaBoss and kick almost as much ass as Ghaz, maybe even more because Ghaz is a super bullet magnet

Thats SC as beatstick. More usefully are SC-as-force changer, e.g. Crowe, Wazzdakka, etc.

KingCracker wrote:I think its a good idea really. I personally believe that too many players rely on SC like Ghaz or Calgar or Lysander to do their dirty work. Its pretty easy to throw Ghaz in a BW and strait line it towards the hardest thing out there and then throw him at it. 7 STR10 attacks will do that to things, specially when he has a 2++ when you do it. Personally, I get annoyed when I see people bring in SC, I still play against them, and its not like Im jaded or anything, I just think they are more a crutch then anything else. I can take a MegaBoss and kick almost as much ass as Ghaz, maybe even more because Ghaz is a super bullet magnet

What about SC's that change up the force Org?

yakshi wrote: (NOTE: where I play KFF gives 5+ cover to vehicles ...).

Time to find a new place to play. Seriously, if they're changing the rules specifically to hurt your army, is it any wonder that your army can't compete with the newer codexes?

Kan Walls and Battlewagon Rush lists use a 4+ save to become viable. Reducing that to a 5+ hurts them a lot.


Have you tried a shooty horde? 45 lootas, 90 shoota boyz, 9 kannons. About as gunline as orks get.

Redbeard wrote:

yakshi wrote: (NOTE: where I play KFF gives 5+ cover to vehicles ...).

Time to find a new place to play. Seriously, if they're changing the rules specifically to hurt your army, is it any wonder that your army can't compete with the newer codexes?

They don't change anything, they just don't interpret the rules the same way as you do. There's recently been a thread in YMDC about it though, so this thread isn't the place to discuss it. IIRC most of Poland, which (judging by the flag) the OP is from, plays it as 5+, so there might not be another place to play.

KingCracker wrote:I think its a good idea really. I personally believe that too many players rely on SC like Ghaz or Calgar or Lysander to do their dirty work. Its pretty easy to throw Ghaz in a BW and strait line it towards the hardest thing out there and then throw him at it. 7 STR10 attacks will do that to things, specially when he has a 2++ when you do it. Personally, I get annoyed when I see people bring in SC, I still play against them, and its not like Im jaded or anything, I just think they are more a crutch then anything else. I can take a MegaBoss and kick almost as much ass as Ghaz, maybe even more because Ghaz is a super bullet magnet

Tell that to biker Ork armies with Wazdakka Gutsmek, Deathwing, Ravenwing, Paladins, Logan's Heroes (Logan and Wolf Guard), Golden Shower (Dante and Sang Guard), Sternguard-heavy armies built around Pedro Kantor for scoring, Salamanders relying on Vulkan for melta/flamer/TH rerolls, and well, just about any army built around a special character. The days of special characters exclusively being "HQ option +1" are gone in favor of ones who change the FOC or your army composition. What you said about Ghaz could literally be done by any warboss with a power klaw, one turn only 2++ notwithstanding.

Finally FAQ came out, and officially KFF gives 4+ to vehicles! YEY!

Cheers!