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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/06 13:25:16
Subject: Eldar Holo Field a must have or not?
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Hello,
after a game with an "unflushable" Falcon (survived 5 rounds of heavy fire without being destroyed) I wondered how good the holo field really is and did some calculations:
If you take a glancing hit (-2 on the damage table) you have the following probabilities, the number in brackets is the probability with a holo field equipped:
Shaken: 50% (75%)
Stunned: 16.6% (14%)
Weapon destroyed: 16.6% (8%)
Immobilized: 16.6% (3%)
If you take a normal penetrating hit it looks like this:
Shaken: 16.6% (31%)
Stunned: 16.6% (25%)
Weapon destroyed: 16.6% (19%)
Immobilized: 16.6% (14%)
Destroyed: 33.3% (11%)
If you take a penetrating hit with AP1 (+1 on the damage table) it's like this:
Shaken: 0% (0%)
Stunned: 16.6% (31%)
Weapon destroyed: 16.6% (25%)
Immobilized: 16.6% (19%)
Destroyed: 50% (25%)
So, overall I came to the conclusion that it was not only one game. The few points for a holo field make your tank a lot more durable since the change of it getting destroyed is reduced to one third for normal hits and even halved for AP1 hits. The other chances also shift very much in favor of leaving the tank as a threat on the table, most likely drawing more fire in the following shots/turns.
I think Mathhammer 40k shows that holo field is indeed for such a point investment an indispensable choice.
What do you think? Agreement, disputes, did I miscalculate somewhere? Or did I just play Captain Obvious?
Regards
Murenius
edit: fixed the glancing hit values, made a mistake there
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/06 14:46:45
My armies:
Eldar
Necron
Chaos Space Marines
Grey Knights
Imperial Knights
Death Guard
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/06 14:11:26
Subject: Eldar Holo Field a must have or not?
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Plastictrees
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For falcons, yes definitely, especially because the falcon is often working as a transport (holding a 60pt DA scoring unit and camping a home objective), has at least 3 weapons to soak up armament destroyed results without immobilizing, and is often standing far off from enemy guns where most antitank shots are not AP1. They can soak quite a bit of long-range fire without significant damage and can function as a vehicle that gives cover to other targets pretty effectively. For instance, I like to put war walkers behind them.
With prisms, the slightly lower starting cost and ability to stand off at extreme ranges make holofields less important. Durability is less vital for cheaper vehicles than numbers, which is also why they're not a good value for vypers.
It's funny this topic came up this week because just this last weekend at a tournament I had three opponents in a row shoot down my falcon with single shots on the very first try, rolling a pair of fives, a pair of sixes, and a five and six respectively on the damage chart. Just insanely anomalous bad luck, but it did make me wish I had brought a second falcon in that list (I lost each of the three games in which the falcon went down, and won the two games in which the falcon survived).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/06 14:15:24
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/06 14:50:47
Subject: Eldar Holo Field a must have or not?
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Oh yeah, I mainly thought about the Falcon when judging this. I agree about the Vypers, it just doesn't pay off to use them on Vypers. But about the Fire Prism I am not so sure. Armor 12 is a glancing hit with STR 6 hits and with holo fields the "weapon destroyed" event is about 50% less likely when taking a glancing hit. But with Fire Prisms a "weapon destroyed" is painful, cause you mainly paid for the Prism Beam. With the Falcon you got another weapon left and even without weapons it's still a transport. The Prism is "one purpose only" and that purpose becomes more likely to be preserved.
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My armies:
Eldar
Necron
Chaos Space Marines
Grey Knights
Imperial Knights
Death Guard
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/06 15:53:37
Subject: Eldar Holo Field a must have or not?
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Wicked Warp Spider
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Agree with Flavius that sometimes your opponent rolls 2 5s and you're just left shaking your head. I have been using 3 prisms all with holofields - it was certainly a better investment than, say, vypers, which is all that would fit in that list. I am going to try out using 1 falcon with holos and 2 prisms without. The reason being (again as stated by others) a scoring falcon you just want to remain alive till the end of the game. A fire prism, well, if it ain't shooting it isn't doing too much good anyway!
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Eldar Corsairs: 4000 pts
Imperial Guard: 4000 pts
Corregidor 700 pts
Acontecimento 400 pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/06 17:55:34
Subject: Eldar Holo Field a must have or not?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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"The few points for a holo field..."
Its 35 points, or about ten few. Also known as nearly 1/3 of the cost of a fire prism. Holofields is very expensive upgrade.
Add up the "doesn't shoot" results for each type of shot without and with holofields.
Type Without With
Glance___49.8%___25%
Pen_____66.6%___55%
AP1 Pen__83.2%___81%
So holofields do almost nothing to stop ap1 shots from shutting up your prism.
Normal pens suppress 80% of what they normally would.
Glances do half of what they normally would.
Note also that it is only helping against immobilize on glances.
It really does help a lot against destroyed, but a prism that can't shoot its big gun is almost as good as dead...
If your prisms are getting hit by a lot of str 6 & 7 maybe there are enough glances to make holofields worthwhile, but if you are getting hit by str 8+ or ap1 you take a lot more pens than glances.
On falcons I like them. Falcons aren't nearly useless after the first weapon destroy, they often have some guys cowering inside who really don't want the thing blowing up or getting immobilized. Still its expensive. Problem is without holofields a falcon is a lot easier to kill than a wave serpent, has only a bit more firepower and is still more expensive... so why not just take a serpent?
All the non-weapon upgrades on vypers are a skill test. If you take them you fail.  It makes me sad that any game designer could put such garbage into an actual published product.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/06 18:04:38
Subject: Eldar Holo Field a must have or not?
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Never-Miss Nightwing Pilot
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Yeah, holo-fields are a brilliant upgrade and are neccessary in my opinion.
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"The stars themselves once lived and died at our command yet you still dare oppose our will. "-Farseer Mirehn Biellann
Armies at 'The Stand-still Point':
Cap'n Waaagggh's warband (Fantasy Orcs) 2250pts. Waaagghhh! in full flow... W-D-L=10-3-3
Hive Fleet Leviathan Strand 1500pts. W-D-L=7-1-2 Nom.
Eldar armies of various sizes W-D-L 26-6-3
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/06 18:07:03
Subject: Re:Eldar Holo Field a must have or not?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Vypers = No
Nightspinners = Maybe
Prisms = Yes
Falcons = Yes, with a side of yes
Why?
Vypers being open topped, they aren't worth the investment because the damage will be so severe even the lowest results are show stoppers.
Nightspiiners should be in the DEEP backfield hidden as much as possible, so they tend to get less shots at them then even Fire Prisms... plus people typically underestimate them horribly.
Prisms, eternal debate but it comes down to the fact that even if you get a weapon destroyed result, you still have an armor 12 battering Ram/objective contester. Ignore the unstatistical pivotal roll that gets through the holos and watch how many times you get just a shaken or stun result that leave the prism as a threatening target still deep into the game.
Falcons need holofield because if the weapons get blown off or you get shaken, you still have a vehicle full of score guys (if you are smart). Falcons should also always have stones in conjunction with Holofields.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/07 03:39:21
Subject: Eldar Holo Field a must have or not?
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
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Here's a thought: I wouldn't play Eldar if there were no Holo fields or Falcons.
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There are 2 kinds of Dakka members: People who just think the game and people who actually play the game. Which one are you? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/07 09:11:44
Subject: Eldar Holo Field a must have or not?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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On Falcons, yes
On Prisms/Nightspinners, yes
The prism/nightspinner seems to be the contested one, so I will add my thoughts. If your prism/nightspinner does lose its weapon, it still has a very important job to do.
Namely, the turn 5 objective contest with enough survivability to survive a shooting phase. Without the holofield it cant expect to survive very long in the enemies midst.
Also, if you lost your weapon early, you can make DEVESTATING ram attacks. With a modest 15 inch ram (could be more I know) you have s8 autohitting a vehicle. I have lost many vehicles to s8 or higher ram attacks from weaponless Prisms. And when it comes time to take the return hit on the ram, holofields kick in, saving the Prism!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/07 09:15:19
Subject: Re:Eldar Holo Field a must have or not?
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Freaky Flayed One
Northern Hemisphere
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I would say they are a DEFINITE must have. Ever since I've started using holofields, my games with eldar have gone a lot more in my favour
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Ultramarines
The Seventh Brotherhood
Craftworld Kai Fe'
Splinter Fleet Megiddo
The Skar Fleet
Tomb World of the Atun Dynasty |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/07 13:37:06
Subject: Eldar Holo Field a must have or not?
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Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot
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Too clutch to not have. I always make the points for them on falcons and prisms.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/07 14:01:45
Subject: Eldar Holo Field a must have or not?
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Devastating Dark Reaper
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Its actually not an optional upgrade for a falcon, the falcon enry is literally sys "If you field a falcon you MUST take holofield upgrade!)
As for Prisms, no, They normally sit behind a wall of skimmers rushing around the field. If my opponent wants to waste shots vs a skimmer in cover, so be it, either way if they hit it it wont be shooting. However I do use it on my Warp Hunter just because people are damn scared of that thing, and the close range makes it clsoer then I like
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2500+
Chaos, Both CSM and Daemons
7000+
Blood Runs. Anger Rises. Death Wakes. War Calls!
Maim, Kill, Maim, Burn, Kill, Maim, Burn, Kill, Maim, Burn, Kill, Bunny, Maim, Kill, Maim.....(Noise Marine found the wrong rhino)
Attention all WA, Oregon, Idaho wargamers, Look up facebook group "Northwest Wargamers" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/12 18:20:25
Subject: Eldar Holo Field a must have or not?
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Executing Exarch
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I would run them on a prism/night spinner. Even if it cant shoot, its a kill point denied and a fast skimmer that can ram/objective contest/tank shock. On a falcon a must, and on vypers a must not. If you put 2 holo fields on vypers you could have bought another vyper.
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The most important rule of 40K-Page XVII of the 6th edition rulebook, the figure at the top right of the page. "Shake hands with your opponent and thank them for a good battle and fun experience." Then go out for a beer.
Shine bright like Iyanden |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/14 21:13:19
Subject: Eldar Holo Field a must have or not?
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1st Lieutenant
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I don't run them (2prism, 1 falcon) i have never missed holofields, rather have more warlocks in my council
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/14 23:38:50
Subject: Eldar Holo Field a must have or not?
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World-Weary Pathfinder
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Reaver83 wrote:I don't run them (2prism, 1 falcon) i have never missed holofields, rather have more warlocks in my council
In a way you bought them by investing more heavily in your bullet magnet!
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