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Hello,

after a game with an "unflushable" Falcon (survived 5 rounds of heavy fire without being destroyed) I wondered how good the holo field really is and did some calculations:

If you take a glancing hit (-2 on the damage table) you have the following probabilities, the number in brackets is the probability with a holo field equipped:
Shaken: 50% (75%)
Stunned: 16.6% (14%)
Weapon destroyed: 16.6% (8%)
Immobilized: 16.6% (3%)

If you take a normal penetrating hit it looks like this:
Shaken: 16.6% (31%)
Stunned: 16.6% (25%)
Weapon destroyed: 16.6% (19%)
Immobilized: 16.6% (14%)
Destroyed: 33.3% (11%)

If you take a penetrating hit with AP1 (+1 on the damage table) it's like this:
Shaken: 0% (0%)
Stunned: 16.6% (31%)
Weapon destroyed: 16.6% (25%)
Immobilized: 16.6% (19%)
Destroyed: 50% (25%)

So, overall I came to the conclusion that it was not only one game. The few points for a holo field make your tank a lot more durable since the change of it getting destroyed is reduced to one third for normal hits and even halved for AP1 hits. The other chances also shift very much in favor of leaving the tank as a threat on the table, most likely drawing more fire in the following shots/turns.

I think Mathhammer 40k shows that holo field is indeed for such a point investment an indispensable choice.

What do you think? Agreement, disputes, did I miscalculate somewhere? Or did I just play Captain Obvious?

Regards
Murenius

edit: fixed the glancing hit values, made a mistake there

For falcons, yes definitely, especially because the falcon is often working as a transport (holding a 60pt DA scoring unit and camping a home objective), has at least 3 weapons to soak up armament destroyed results without immobilizing, and is often standing far off from enemy guns where most antitank shots are not AP1. They can soak quite a bit of long-range fire without significant damage and can function as a vehicle that gives cover to other targets pretty effectively. For instance, I like to put war walkers behind them.

With prisms, the slightly lower starting cost and ability to stand off at extreme ranges make holofields less important. Durability is less vital for cheaper vehicles than numbers, which is also why they're not a good value for vypers.

It's funny this topic came up this week because just this last weekend at a tournament I had three opponents in a row shoot down my falcon with single shots on the very first try, rolling a pair of fives, a pair of sixes, and a five and six respectively on the damage chart. Just insanely anomalous bad luck, but it did make me wish I had brought a second falcon in that list (I lost each of the three games in which the falcon went down, and won the two games in which the falcon survived).

Oh yeah, I mainly thought about the Falcon when judging this. I agree about the Vypers, it just doesn't pay off to use them on Vypers. But about the Fire Prism I am not so sure. Armor 12 is a glancing hit with STR 6 hits and with holo fields the "weapon destroyed" event is about 50% less likely when taking a glancing hit. But with Fire Prisms a "weapon destroyed" is painful, cause you mainly paid for the Prism Beam. With the Falcon you got another weapon left and even without weapons it's still a transport. The Prism is "one purpose only" and that purpose becomes more likely to be preserved.

Agree with Flavius that sometimes your opponent rolls 2 5s and you're just left shaking your head. I have been using 3 prisms all with holofields - it was certainly a better investment than, say, vypers, which is all that would fit in that list. I am going to try out using 1 falcon with holos and 2 prisms without. The reason being (again as stated by others) a scoring falcon you just want to remain alive till the end of the game. A fire prism, well, if it ain't shooting it isn't doing too much good anyway!

"The few points for a holo field..."

Its 35 points, or about ten few. Also known as nearly 1/3 of the cost of a fire prism. Holofields is very expensive upgrade.

Add up the "doesn't shoot" results for each type of shot without and with holofields.

Type Without With
Glance___49.8%___25%
Pen_____66.6%___55%
AP1 Pen__83.2%___81%

So holofields do almost nothing to stop ap1 shots from shutting up your prism.
Normal pens suppress 80% of what they normally would.
Glances do half of what they normally would.

Note also that it is only helping against immobilize on glances.

It really does help a lot against destroyed, but a prism that can't shoot its big gun is almost as good as dead...

If your prisms are getting hit by a lot of str 6 & 7 maybe there are enough glances to make holofields worthwhile, but if you are getting hit by str 8+ or ap1 you take a lot more pens than glances.

On falcons I like them. Falcons aren't nearly useless after the first weapon destroy, they often have some guys cowering inside who really don't want the thing blowing up or getting immobilized. Still its expensive. Problem is without holofields a falcon is a lot easier to kill than a wave serpent, has only a bit more firepower and is still more expensive... so why not just take a serpent?

All the non-weapon upgrades on vypers are a skill test. If you take them you fail. It makes me sad that any game designer could put such garbage into an actual published product.

Yeah, holo-fields are a brilliant upgrade and are neccessary in my opinion.

Vypers = No

Nightspinners = Maybe

Prisms = Yes

Falcons = Yes, with a side of yes

Why?

Vypers being open topped, they aren't worth the investment because the damage will be so severe even the lowest results are show stoppers.

Nightspiiners should be in the DEEP backfield hidden as much as possible, so they tend to get less shots at them then even Fire Prisms... plus people typically underestimate them horribly.

Prisms, eternal debate but it comes down to the fact that even if you get a weapon destroyed result, you still have an armor 12 battering Ram/objective contester. Ignore the unstatistical pivotal roll that gets through the holos and watch how many times you get just a shaken or stun result that leave the prism as a threatening target still deep into the game.

Falcons need holofield because if the weapons get blown off or you get shaken, you still have a vehicle full of score guys (if you are smart). Falcons should also always have stones in conjunction with Holofields.

Here's a thought: I wouldn't play Eldar if there were no Holo fields or Falcons.

On Falcons, yes
On Prisms/Nightspinners, yes

The prism/nightspinner seems to be the contested one, so I will add my thoughts. If your prism/nightspinner does lose its weapon, it still has a very important job to do.

Namely, the turn 5 objective contest with enough survivability to survive a shooting phase. Without the holofield it cant expect to survive very long in the enemies midst.

Also, if you lost your weapon early, you can make DEVESTATING ram attacks. With a modest 15 inch ram (could be more I know) you have s8 autohitting a vehicle. I have lost many vehicles to s8 or higher ram attacks from weaponless Prisms. And when it comes time to take the return hit on the ram, holofields kick in, saving the Prism!

I would say they are a DEFINITE must have. Ever since I've started using holofields, my games with eldar have gone a lot more in my favour

Too clutch to not have. I always make the points for them on falcons and prisms.

Its actually not an optional upgrade for a falcon, the falcon enry is literally sys "If you field a falcon you MUST take holofield upgrade!)

As for Prisms, no, They normally sit behind a wall of skimmers rushing around the field. If my opponent wants to waste shots vs a skimmer in cover, so be it, either way if they hit it it wont be shooting. However I do use it on my Warp Hunter just because people are damn scared of that thing, and the close range makes it clsoer then I like

I would run them on a prism/night spinner. Even if it cant shoot, its a kill point denied and a fast skimmer that can ram/objective contest/tank shock. On a falcon a must, and on vypers a must not. If you put 2 holo fields on vypers you could have bought another vyper.

I don't run them (2prism, 1 falcon) i have never missed holofields, rather have more warlocks in my council

Reaver83 wrote:I don't run them (2prism, 1 falcon) i have never missed holofields, rather have more warlocks in my council

In a way you bought them by investing more heavily in your bullet magnet!