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Ya the title says it all. I've got a large Steel Legion army but Im not sure if everything can be mechanized like I want it to be. I have 8 chimeras so its not a problem at all. Its just I want all of them to be used and full considering the Steel Legion uses nothing but mechanized troops.

The question is, is there a way I can put Heavy Weapon Squads (the 3 base, 2wound units) inside a Chimera at the start of the game? I've heard the only way is to use a Commissar or independent character and then take a transport for them. Then put the the Heavy Weapon Squad with them. I dont really know if this is true or false. Everywhere I talk about this I get different answers so Dakka I need some clarification on this because I really don't want to have to buy and paint more Steel Legion infantry because they are now expensive to get.

HWTs cannot buy a dedicated transport so no, you cannot start the game with them inside a Chimera. You can buy another squad the Chimera, leave it empty, and then move the HWT into the Chimera in the first turn.

L. Wrex

You could have the HWS run into an empty tank on your first turn, but you loose out on first turn shooting.

It might not be a problem if you're playing a all reserves army or if you're playing dawn of war.

But it definitely has some drawbacks. If the chimera explodes, the HWS only has a small chance of surving/staying on the board.

Since the chimera is a 65 pt investment, you might want to look into just grabbing two teams and putting them in cover.

The only way is to buy heavy weapon teams as upgrades for vets or regular infantry if you want them in at the start.

Thatguyoverthere wrote:
But it definitely has some drawbacks. If the chimera explodes, the HWS only has a small chance of surving/staying on the board.

Since the chimera is a 65 pt investment, you might want to look into just grabbing two teams and putting them in cover.

Chimeras are 55 Pts also they have 2 wounds each so they have a high survival rate if the chimera explodes

I'm my opinion lose out on the first turn shooting, have them hop into the chimera and then move the chimera 12in putting them into a good shooting spot, pop smoke and then you win!

Neroku wrote:

Thatguyoverthere wrote:
But it definitely has some drawbacks. If the chimera explodes, the HWS only has a small chance of surving/staying on the board.

Since the chimera is a 65 pt investment, you might want to look into just grabbing two teams and putting them in cover.

Chimeras are 55 Pts also they have 2 wounds each so they have a high survival rate if the chimera explodes

I'm my opinion lose out on the first turn shooting, have them hop into the chimera and then move the chimera 12in putting them into a good shooting spot, pop smoke and then you win!

With wound allocation, it only takes 2 wounds from that explosion to kill one of the HWTs and force a leadership.

But to get them into chimeras, this is probably your best option.

But you only roll 3 dice to wound when/if the chimera explodes, as the unit is 3 models (not 6) - on a 3+, so ~2 wounds are taken, then saves. I'd say a HWS isn't in significantly more danger from exploding vehicles than an infantry squad. I'd be more worried about keeping a regimental standard around for the usual morale and pinning checks.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:HWTs cannot buy a dedicated transport so no, you cannot start the game with them inside a Chimera. You can buy another squad the Chimera, leave it empty, and then move the HWT into the Chimera in the first turn.

If you want to mechanize a HWS that's your answer but you could choose to deploy your HWS in cover and still stay true to your theme (and potentially better spend your points) because in a combat situation (ideally) the Fire Support get into position and setup before the main ground force engage. It's just a thought. I personally really enjoy themed armies but they shouldn't restrict your options if you can find a way to make it all work.

Good luck with your new army

Peace Out!
Jonny!

Yeah, Wrex has it correct. HWT's are pretty frail, and in my experience, not worth using.

odorofdeath wrote:Yeah, Wrex has it correct. HWT's are pretty frail, and in my experience, not worth using.

This. Heavy Weapons squads suffer from a number of different issues that make them useless. STR6 or higher will instant kill them, and at only 3 per squad, the enemy only has to kill 1 to force a morale check. At leadership 7, they're going to break and run away, and if I remember correctly they can't fire on the turn they rally (if they even do), which makes them even MORE pointless. The only way to run a heavy weapons team is in an infantry squad, but I've never been a fan of this either as you're essentially buying a 50 point squad just to field a single heavy weapon.

creeping-deth87 wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:Yeah, Wrex has it correct. HWT's are pretty frail, and in my experience, not worth using.

This. Heavy Weapons squads suffer from a number of different issues that make them useless. STR6 or higher will instant kill them, and at only 3 per squad, the enemy only has to kill 1 to force a morale check. At leadership 7, they're going to break and run away, and if I remember correctly they can't fire on the turn they rally (if they even do), which makes them even MORE pointless. The only way to run a heavy weapons team is in an infantry squad, but I've never been a fan of this either as you're essentially buying a 50 point squad just to field a single heavy weapon.

Well, if you are hell-bent on HWS, deploy 3 in cover and have a lord commissar standing in the middle looking angry (preferably in cover as well) that would cut down on the running and inability to comprehend orders such as: "fire your big gun on that lumbering piece of armor with spiky bits sticking out of it".

tracer wrote:

creeping-deth87 wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:Yeah, Wrex has it correct. HWT's are pretty frail, and in my experience, not worth using.

This. Heavy Weapons squads suffer from a number of different issues that make them useless. STR6 or higher will instant kill them, and at only 3 per squad, the enemy only has to kill 1 to force a morale check. At leadership 7, they're going to break and run away, and if I remember correctly they can't fire on the turn they rally (if they even do), which makes them even MORE pointless. The only way to run a heavy weapons team is in an infantry squad, but I've never been a fan of this either as you're essentially buying a 50 point squad just to field a single heavy weapon.

Well, if you are hell-bent on HWS, deploy 3 in cover and have a lord commissar standing in the middle looking angry (preferably in cover as well) that would cut down on the running and inability to comprehend orders such as: "fire your big gun on that lumbering piece of armor with spiky bits sticking out of it".

Yes but then you're spending another 70 points on a single model unit to ensure your other fragile unit can do its job unhindered. Also anything that can instant kill a heavy weapons team will also be able to instant kill your commissar, so all you're really doing is throwing another target and and another easy kill point at your opponent. That and there are other things in the Guard codex that do the job of heavy weapons squads but better. Hydras and Vendettas outshine autocannon and las cannon squads, which leaves you with heavy bolters (which every Guard vehicle gets for free) and mortars (which are COMPLETELY useless).

Personally, the only way I'd ever run heavy weapons squads is if I was using my heavy and fast attack slots for more unconventional unit choices. If you're hell bent on using HWS, I'd use them en masse for target saturation and attach the lord commissar to a squad with a lot of ablative wounds so you're maximizing on the leadership 10 bubble.

Technically speaking fluff wise and not rules wise a Chimera has the ability to hold 12 men, so a PCS, CCS, or SWS can share a Chimera with a HWS. While the rules clearly say that 2 squads can not embark in the same transport fluff wise they can. In the case of a HWS just say they ride onto and off the battlefield with another squad, but once the battle starts only 1 squad may be in the transport per imperial doctrine (and the BRB).

creeping-deth87 wrote:

tracer wrote:

creeping-deth87 wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:Yeah, Wrex has it correct. HWT's are pretty frail, and in my experience, not worth using.

This. Heavy Weapons squads suffer from a number of different issues that make them useless. STR6 or higher will instant kill them, and at only 3 per squad, the enemy only has to kill 1 to force a morale check. At leadership 7, they're going to break and run away, and if I remember correctly they can't fire on the turn they rally (if they even do), which makes them even MORE pointless. The only way to run a heavy weapons team is in an infantry squad, but I've never been a fan of this either as you're essentially buying a 50 point squad just to field a single heavy weapon.

Well, if you are hell-bent on HWS, deploy 3 in cover and have a lord commissar standing in the middle looking angry (preferably in cover as well) that would cut down on the running and inability to comprehend orders such as: "fire your big gun on that lumbering piece of armor with spiky bits sticking out of it".

Yes but then you're spending another 70 points on a single model unit to ensure your other fragile unit can do its job unhindered. Also anything that can instant kill a heavy weapons team will also be able to instant kill your commissar, so all you're really doing is throwing another target and and another easy kill point at your opponent. That and there are other things in the Guard codex that do the job of heavy weapons squads but better. Hydras and Vendettas outshine autocannon and las cannon squads, which leaves you with heavy bolters (which every Guard vehicle gets for free) and mortars (which are COMPLETELY useless).

Personally, the only way I'd ever run heavy weapons squads is if I was using my heavy and fast attack slots for more unconventional unit choices. If you're hell bent on using HWS, I'd use them en masse for target saturation and attach the lord commissar to a squad with a lot of ablative wounds so you're maximizing on the leadership 10 bubble.

Yes, HWS are frail and small, but they can still be used to great effect. The problem i have with the hydra is that it's competing with manticores, LRMBT, Collossi, etc for a HS-slot, i would only use it if i knew i was facing something using a buttload of fast skimmers with low AV. Valkyries are nice, Really nice, but if you play someone who has seen one in action before you can bet it won't stay airborne for long, and since it's such a huge target, high up, everything will be able to shoot at it. Sure you get a 4+ cover from all-out, but you will have to slow down to be able to shoot. They also suffer from the fact that you should really only take one per slot, at the very most 2 since they will only be able to shoot at a single target anyways and 9 TL-LC is overkill on almost everything.
I'm not saying they are the bees knees of IG 5th but they can do a good job if you build your army and play with them in mind.
If you are playing blob and want your line-squads to be able to move, it's not worthwhile to add a lot of HW there, so a HWS rapidly becomes a necessary evil. If you deploy correctly a HWS can benefit from a 4+ coversave the entire game (3+ with the GTG-GBITF trick). To get them to take orders you can use the lord commisar (with or without meathsield, if you deploy him behind a wall) or just use kell in your CCS and keep doling out "bring it down".

On the practical side of how to get everything in chimeras:

One thing I'm seeing increasingly in netlists is the idea of buying a stormtrooper squad with a chimera, then deepstriking the stormtroopers and giving their chimera to a special weapon squad.

You'd still have to embark them on turn 1, but it would mean you could get up to 3 extra chimeras for heavy weapon squads while still keeping your platoon command and infantry squads embarked in their own chimeras. For example, you could do your CCS, PCS, 2 infantry squads (that's 4 chimeras and allows you to buy HWS), then another troop unit in a chimera (veterans) to fulfill force org requirements, then 3 units of stormtroopers with chimeras. Put the stormtroopers in reserve (or infiltrate/outflank them) and give their chimeras to your three heavy weapon squads. That uses your 8 chimeras, fulfills the troop and HQ requirements, and lets you start the game with everything embarked on a transport the way a Steel Legion army should be.

The possibility of a chimera being blown up in your turn 1 and killing a model that forces a HWS to run off the table is so remote that I don't think it's something to be worried about. With 8 chimeras you can provide enough screening for the empty ones for one turn, or if you're really afraid of it, start the HWSs 7"-8" away from the chimera's back hatch (the explosion can't reach that far, and then in your turn you move 6" and embark because everybody is within 2" of the hatch.)

creeping-deth87 wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:Yeah, Wrex has it correct. HWT's are pretty frail, and in my experience, not worth using.

This. Heavy Weapons squads suffer from a number of different issues that make them useless. STR6 or higher will instant kill them, and at only 3 per squad, the enemy only has to kill 1 to force a morale check. At leadership 7, they're going to break and run away, and if I remember correctly they can't fire on the turn they rally (if they even do), which makes them even MORE pointless. The only way to run a heavy weapons team is in an infantry squad, but I've never been a fan of this either as you're essentially buying a 50 point squad just to field a single heavy weapon.

They're FAR from useless. Let's try to avoid hyperbole. Leaving those points empty and taking a 75 point gap where you COULD have put a HWS is useless. They just need special consideration. My roommate runs gunline guard, and does it surprisingly well. Kell and (for large enough games, Creed) get you a bit more bang for your buck, and if you combine them with a couple blobs to run interference from early assault armies, you can actually build a IG footlist (which is the exact opposite of the topic, I know) that has some decent long range firepower. The problem is that you have to build the list to do this.

I now play Necron, but started with Imperial Guard, and so am well familiar with the problem.

My solution is to take more HQ ICs. Technically, the IC can buy himself a chimera, join a HWS, and then embark. So, there should be no problem starting the game in the chimera with the Lord Commissar attached to the HWS. The trick is that the IC does not count as a separate unit when attached, while the joined squad can start in the chimera, because the chimera is the ICs dedicated transport. I have done this several times and have never had complaints from opponents, including experienced ones.

I disagree with the attitude that buying ICs in this role is somehow inefficient because it it just fat on top of the HWS point cost. That attitude ignores the synergetic usefulness of the IC. For example, I love Lord Commissars because of their L10, summary execution, and aura of command. Position them centrally, and they affect most of your infantry formation. And they can do it from inside the chimera, because it is a command vehicle. Attaching the LC to HWS does not decrease either unit's effectiveness, because the commissar does not have a decent ranged attack that would be wasted on firing at the HWS target. So, there are no down sides to this build that I can see. If the chimera gets popped, detach the LC and let him join a meatier unit nearby, or hop into another chimera to join another unit. The HWS can keep firing from the chimera crater, gaining cover as well. The blow up should cause a single wound on the HWS, which does not diminish their firepower alone, because each model has 2 wounds.

As another route, you can buy chimeras for the troops in the platoon, one per troop squad regardless of combined squads, and then deploy the chimera with the HWS next to them. On the first turn, they can jump in. Since you can take HWS only as part of a platoon, you will have those chimeras available to buy guaranteed. Losing the first turn shooting is not so much of a problem as it seems. Most armies today go in the reserve either completely or partially, so many games of IG have "empty" turn 1 and possibly turn 2 as well if IG moves first. So, there is plenty of time to move things around and set up a good firing line.

Furthermore, IG tends to take vendettas with a couple of squads of melta vets. Those vets are entitled to dedicated chimeras, which they have no use for, as they start in the vendettas. So, you can buy up those chimeras and deploy them next to the HWS teams for first-turn embarkation.

Finally, in one third of the time, you will be playing DoW deployment, so since you will be walking onto the map anyway and night fighting rules are in effect for the first turn, you will probably walk the HWS on the map, so move in with the empty chimeras first, then walk in with the HWS and embark. Problem solved.

Necrontyr40k wrote:I now play Necron, but started with Imperial Guard, and so am well familiar with the problem.

My solution is to take more HQ ICs. Technically, the IC can buy himself a chimera, join a HWS, and then embark. So, there should be no problem starting the game in the chimera with the Lord Commissar attached to the HWS. The trick is that the IC does not count as a separate unit when attached, while the joined squad can start in the chimera, because the chimera is the ICs dedicated transport. I have done this several times and have never had complaints from opponents, including experienced ones.

I disagree with the attitude that buying ICs in this role is somehow inefficient because it it just fat on top of the HWS point cost. That attitude ignores the synergetic usefulness of the IC. For example, I love Lord Commissars because of their L10, summary execution, and aura of command. Position them centrally, and they affect most of your infantry formation. And they can do it from inside the chimera, because it is a command vehicle. Attaching the LC to HWS does not decrease either unit's effectiveness, because the commissar does not have a decent ranged attack that would be wasted on firing at the HWS target. So, there are no down sides to this build that I can see. If the chimera gets popped, detach the LC and let him join a meatier unit nearby, or hop into another chimera to join another unit. The HWS can keep firing from the chimera crater, gaining cover as well. The blow up should cause a single wound on the HWS, which does not diminish their firepower alone, because each model has 2 wounds.

As another route, you can buy chimeras for the troops in the platoon, one per troop squad regardless of combined squads, and then deploy the chimera with the HWS next to them. On the first turn, they can jump in. Since you can take HWS only as part of a platoon, you will have those chimeras available to buy guaranteed. Losing the first turn shooting is not so much of a problem as it seems. Most armies today go in the reserve either completely or partially, so many games of IG have "empty" turn 1 and possibly turn 2 as well if IG moves first. So, there is plenty of time to move things around and set up a good firing line.

Furthermore, IG tends to take vendettas with a couple of squads of melta vets. Those vets are entitled to dedicated chimeras, which they have no use for, as they start in the vendettas. So, you can buy up those chimeras and deploy them next to the HWS teams for first-turn embarkation.

Finally, in one third of the time, you will be playing DoW deployment, so since you will be walking onto the map anyway and night fighting rules are in effect for the first turn, you will probably walk the HWS on the map, so move in with the empty chimeras first, then walk in with the HWS and embark. Problem solved.

I like a lot of your points here. It is easy enough for an IG player to get an abundance of available Chimera to transport a HWS in. Ultimately the issues that I can see with the ICs in the codex are the fact that the majority of the time IG players struggle with KP missions as it is. These games will come up 1/3 of the time in regular play, and generally be a factor in tournament play. However, Lord Commissars can provide a huge boost to your back lines if you are struggling with LD problems.

Back on topic, would you not be able to use Creed's Tactical Genius to scout move a HWS into a Chimera? I don't have my BRB on me at this moment (I'm at work) but I'm pretty sure you can do anything you can do in the movement phase during a scout move, yes?

jeramy404 wrote:

Back on topic, would you not be able to use Creed's Tactical Genius to scout move a HWS into a Chimera? I don't have my BRB on me at this moment (I'm at work) but I'm pretty sure you can do anything you can do in the movement phase during a scout move, yes?

You could of course but, that would be stupid and a waste of a good scout move that could have been used for a another unit that needs it.

Personally, I''d rather spread out the Heavy Weapons into your squads than have them concentrated like that. Chuck the heavy weapons in your squads, you Platoon Command and your Company Command. Their cost goes down, but their survivaility goes way up.

h0r0 wrote:

jeramy404 wrote:

Back on topic, would you not be able to use Creed's Tactical Genius to scout move a HWS into a Chimera? I don't have my BRB on me at this moment (I'm at work) but I'm pretty sure you can do anything you can do in the movement phase during a scout move, yes?

You could of course but, that would be stupid and a waste of a good scout move that could have been used for a another unit that needs it.

Obviously there are much better places to use Tactical Genius. Units of Fast Attack tanks, outflanking a Demolisher, etc... But for argument's sake you could do it.

Ultimately, the best way to throw them in a pillbox style situation is to spend their first turn moving into position (i.e. embarking in a Chimera, move forward 12", pop smoke).

Emperors Faithful wrote:Personally, I''d rather spread out the Heavy Weapons into your squads than have them concentrated like that. Chuck the heavy weapons in your squads, you Platoon Command and your Company Command. Their cost goes down, but their survivaility goes way up.

Valid points, but you sacrifice mobility in the squads that you've listed. Sure you can take a 30man blob with 3GL and 3AC (which I personally still do) which gives your weapons a much higher chance of survival, but at any point that you move, break, or get assaulted, you are suddenly without that fire support. Where as you can have a 30man blob with 3GL backed by a Heavy Weapon Squad with 3AC, which gives you the fire support with all of the mobility.

Both options have their ups and downs. As stated before with HWS LD problems, S6 instagibs, and the like, it really depends on the makeup of the rest of your army. HOWEVER, I would never stick a heavy weapon in a PCS or CCS. Their numbers are too small, availability for special weapons too high and generally you're going to want to be able to maneuver them around with the rest of your units as to provide orders.