Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all,
I was writing a list for Space Puppies and have always liked the idea of taking Wolf Guard, but maintaining relative cheapness for the unit. I thought a Storm Bolter would be pretty good for 3 points, but then saw that they could replace bolt pistol and/or chainsword with a weapon from the list. Is it legal to take two Storm Bolters each? In this case, would I get twin-linked (shooting), and +1 attack in combat for having two of the same weapon in combat (yes, they're two handed, but you can duel wield Thunder Hammers)?

I'm not sure about them becoming twin-linked, but you definitely do not get an extra attack in close combat. A Storm Bolter is neither a Pistol nor a CC weapon, it is an Assault gun.

I thought that, but you still have two of the same weapon. Debatable . . .

you shoot 1 gun in the shooting phase. So you get to pick which stormbolter you want to use. (in other words no benefit)


As above, no benefit in combat. Stormbolter are not close combat weapons.

Though a wolf guard can take two stormbolters:

1. You can only fire one weapon in the shooting phase.
2. Having two of a weapon does not make them twin linked unless it expressly says so (i.e. Tau Battle Suits)
3. A Storm Bolter is not a pistol, so has no effect in close combat. Having two does not give you an extra attack, and having one and a close combat weapon doesn't give you an extra attack either.

If only I were allowed to quote Stelek here...

Oh dear. This is a mess.

You can take two Storm Bolters IIRC, but there's no advantage. You wouldn't get twin-linked, because it's not a twin-linked weapon nor does it ever state that it becomes twin-linked in any ruleset. You don't get +1 Attack in combat because, as you said, they are two handed and therefore don't confer an extra attack. Furthermore, a Thunder Hammer isn't a two-handed weapon, so your example is invalid.

Hope that clears it all up.

Just clarrifying for certainty

Guardian_Phoenix wrote:I thought that, but you still have two of the same weapon. Debatable . . .

While it is true that it is debatable, there are two sides to the debate.
One side says;
"no extra attack and no twin-linking"
This is the side that is correct and in accordance with all the rules.

Then there is the side that says;
"the weapons are twin-linked and you get an extra attack"
This is the side that is completely and utterly wrong with no rules justification whatsoever for their premise.


While you can select two stormbolters, you may only fire one of them, and you will gain no in game advantage whatsoever other than keeping their points down, which is the only debatable question here.

Guardian_Phoenix wrote:Hi all,
I was writing a list for Space Puppies and have always liked the idea of taking Wolf Guard, but maintaining relative cheapness for the unit. I thought a Storm Bolter would be pretty good for 3 points, but then saw that they could replace bolt pistol and/or chainsword with a weapon from the list. Is it legal to take two Storm Bolters each? In this case, would I get twin-linked (shooting), and +1 attack in combat for having two of the same weapon in combat (yes, they're two handed, but you can duel wield Thunder Hammers)?

It's already been answered, but I just wanted to provide rules to back it up

A model may have two ranged weapons, but can usually only fire one (in the absence of a special rule saying otherwise). Rulebook, p15, first column. There are no rules allowing two of the same weapon to be fired as a single, twin-linked weapon, except in the case of units like Sisters of Battle Seraphim, which have a special rule allowing it. This is not the norm, however.

For close combat, I believe the rule you are misapplying is on p42. This rule states that a model with two of the same weapon gains one additional attack, when taken out of context. In context, it refers specifically to special close combat weapons, and only ones that are single-handed. They are two handed, but that has nothing to do with thunder hammers. Thunder hammers, power fists, chainfists and lightning claws are special cases: they are single-handed weapons, but do not gain +1 attack for two close combat weapons unless you have two of them.

Guardian_Phoenix wrote: Is it legal to take two Storm Bolters each?

Absolutely

Guardian_Phoenix wrote: In this case, would I get twin-linked (shooting),

No. This only happens for a handful of specific units stating that is the case. You also would not be able to shoot both of them in the same turn.

Guardian_Phoenix wrote:and +1 attack in combat for having two of the same weapon in combat

No, you get +1A from having two CCWs (note that pistols are shooting weapons which are also CCWs).
You can get +1A from having two different CCWs.
Stormbolters are not CCWs (nor pistols)

Guardian_Phoenix wrote:(yes, they're two handed,

No they aren't. Only a handful of the older codexes defines weapons as being single or double handed, C:SW is not one of them. As such, they are neither single handed nor double handed.

Guardian_Phoenix wrote:but you can duel wield Thunder Hammers)?

You can use two thunder hammers as they are CCWs. You gain +1A because you have two CCWs. This has no bearing on twin storm bolters.

No they aren't. Only a handful of the older codexes defines weapons as being single or double handed, C:SW is not one of them. As such, they are neither single handed nor double handed.

Check the main rulebook FAQ and you will find that is not true.

Ghaz wrote:

No they aren't. Only a handful of the older codexes defines weapons as being single or double handed, C:SW is not one of them. As such, they are neither single handed nor double handed.

Check the main rulebook FAQ and you will find that is not true.

You're referring to this?
Q: What weapons count as single-handed weapons for
the purposes of gaining additional attacks in close
combat? (p37)
A: All pistols, close combat weapons and any weapons
that are specifically stated as single-handed weapons in
their rules.

Storm Bolters are not defined as being single or double handed CCWs as they are not CCWs or pistols. They are not affected by the FAQ ruling for the same reason.

The FAQ clarifies that they are not single handed weapons, hence two handed weapons is the only category left. There is no evidence presented for a 'no hands' category of weapons.

Ghaz wrote:The FAQ clarifies that they are not single handed weapons, hence two handed weapons is the only category left. There is no evidence presented for a 'no hands' category of weapons.

That is a logical fallacy through and through.

The rules do not at any point require CCWs to be either single or double handed - the rules function perfectly well without that distinction.

Furthermore, why would the rules for pistols and CCWs apply to a weapon which is not a pistol or CCW?

You do realise that you've stated that weapons which are not CCWs or pistols must be double-handed CCWs? Does that make any kind of sense? (remember, there is no double-handed non-CCW in the rulebook, handed-ness applies to CCWs and pistols only) Or are you suggesting that a dread with 2x DCCWs and a storm bolter cannot get the bonus for having two single-handed CCWs as it is also using a double-handed CCW (the stormbolter)? And that Grey Hunters cannot gain the bonus for two single handed CCWs as they also have a double-handed CCW (a bolter)?

And where do the rules mandate that only a close combat weapon or a pistol provides an extra attack in close combat? It doesn't. The only requirement is that the weapons be single handed, nothing more. Hence the reason for the FAQ in the first place.

Scott-S6 wrote: Or are you suggesting that a dread with 2x DCCWs and a storm bolter cannot get the bonus for having two single-handed CCWs as it is also using a double-handed CCW (the stormbolter)? And that Grey Hunters cannot gain the bonus for two single handed CCWs as they also have a double-handed CCW (a bolter)?

If the dread were to use the storm bolter in close combat, indeed it would not get a bonus for having two CCW. Likewise, if the Grey Hunters were to use their bolter rifle butts in close combat, they would not get a bonus attack because they would be using a two handed CCW.

The rulebook clarifies 2 important points:

1) The only ranged weapons that are 1-handed CCWs for 2 single handed CCW bonus purposes are pistols.

2) Rifle butts(when used in CC) are 2-handed weapons(they are given as a specific example on page 42). The Storm Bolter itself has an undefined "handedness"(can be anywhere from null-infinity) but is not a pistol and therefore never a single-handed CCW(If you want to brain someone with it, it requires more than 1 hand).

Ghaz wrote:The FAQ clarifies that they are not single handed weapons, hence two handed weapons is the only category left. There is no evidence presented for a 'no hands' category of weapons.

If that is the case, every single model I have ever seen with a storm bolter was defective, as they all use the storm bolter either with only one hand, or wrist-mounted. Guess that gets rid of your "no 'no hands'" fallacy.

Yay! Perfect dakka thread! OP question answered immediately and thread then devolves into pedantry. To which I will now contribute.

Whether a weapon is no-handed, two-handed, three-handed, or one-hand-and-one-wiggly-appendage-handed is immaterial. If it is not defined as a single handed CCW, it will not help you get an extra attack in close combat.

Even if the model is wielding it in one hand, if it isn't defined as a single handed CCW, it isn't one.

spyguyyoda wrote:If that is the case, every single model I have ever seen with a storm bolter was defective, as they all use the storm bolter either with only one hand, or wrist-mounted. Guess that gets rid of your "no 'no hands'" fallacy.

How the model is holding the weapon has no bearing on how it works within the rules of the game.

insaniak wrote:

spyguyyoda wrote:If that is the case, every single model I have ever seen with a storm bolter was defective, as they all use the storm bolter either with only one hand, or wrist-mounted. Guess that gets rid of your "no 'no hands'" fallacy.

How the model is holding the weapon has no bearing on how it works within the rules of the game.

You can also note that almost every single one of those models is equipped with a Special CCW; so the SB is never used in CC(and therefore it's "handedness" is a moot point).