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just getting back into warhammer after a hiatus of several years, split the IoB set with an old gaming buddy of mine and he decided he wanted the HEs which of course left me with the Skaven. got the most recent army book and currently playing around with army lists, these are the two i'm currently debating between:

list 1
grey seer
warlock engineer lvl 2
warlock engineer lvl 2
assassin
25 clanrats w/ attached warpfire thrower
25 clanrats w/ attached warpfire thrower
25 stormvermin w/ attached warpfire thrower
25 skavenslaves
25 skavenslaves
10 gutter runners
10 gutter runners
10 poison wind globadiers
10 poison wind globadiers

list 2
grey seer
warlock engineer lvl 2
warlock engineer lvl 2
assassin
36 clanrats w/ attached warpfire thrower
36 stormvermin w/ attached warpfire thrower
36 skavenslaves
10 gutter runners
10 gutter runners
rat ogre pack - 8 rat ogres + 4 packmasters

i've also got a third list written with rat ogres and a doomwheel but the model count on that list is so ridiculously low that i'm not even really considering ever using it (although i always did love my doomwheels back in the day and would love to be able to include one at some point in this army as well).

anyway, gimme some opinions as to which army you prefer. not looking to "power-game" here, just looking to put together an army that'll be fun to play AND play against. thanx in advance for any and all constructive critiques.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
wow, no one has any opinions at all. guess skaven ain't as popular as they used to be :-P

First of all I don't think you'd need 20 gutter runners. And 25 stormvermin isn't going to do a lot, at least not in my experience. I would also drop one unit of globadiers off and spend it on something more worthwile and expendable. Consider using some slaves.

I've referenced the first list here. So that's my 2 cents.

Couple thoughts:

1. Neither list has a BSB. You should really reconsider, as the Ld reroll is honestly more useful than even your general's Inspiring Presence, imo.

2. Skaven slave blocks should be big. You'll be removing handfuls of models each phase, believe me. But 50 slaves will hold up just about anything for a couple turns while you shoot at it.

3. Globadiers, like Jezzails, are sadly a bit lacking. While they definitely have their place (say, taking out Chaos Warriors/Knights or Brettonians) they require a bit of finesse, a bit of luck, and a lot of luck to use. (Yes, I know I said luck twice). I'm not saying don't use them, but I'm not sure I'd use two big units of them. Also, don't forget you can give them a Plague Mortar.

4. Stormvermin are generally considered underwhelming. They cost more than a clan rat and a slave together, but generally have less survivability than a clan rat owing to their lack of parry. I haven't tried them yet, so I won't say "Don't use them", but I did want to bring up the point. On the other hand, they're one of three units in the entire skaven army that can have a magic banner, so that's a plus.

5. I dunno if you're just not listing upgrades, but poisoned attacks + slings on Gutter Runners = dead something. Especially war machines or big monsters with no regen (like Giants).

6. Doomwheels can be tricky. They can't just ram into the front of a normal infantry block and expect to survive, as they'll usually just get dragged under. As much as I absolutely adore the model, I generally leave them out for Warp Lightning Cannons.

7. Get some Warp Lightning Cannons. They're extremely killy, and have been the MVP for every game I've played thusfar.


Guess that'll start...

replying back point by point:

1) yeah i could see including a BSB in the army, initial thought would be to throw him in with the stormvermin, give him Skavenbrew, total cost for the BSB = 120 points, drop a unit of gutter runners and there ya go, the points are covered. definitely soemthing to think about.

2) i know it's not 50 but, a block of 36 is still a pretty decent size. i *could* bump the slaves up to 49 (7x7) and drop the stormvermin down to 25 (5x5) and still be good on points, in fact that'd actually save me something like 49 points. and would kinda make sense with the 3 main units being:

dregs: slaves - biggest unit (7x7)
rank & file: clanrats - mid-size unit (6x6)
"elites": stormvermin - smallest of the 3 (5x5)

yeah i actually kinda think that makes alot of sense. will def have to play around with the list a bit more.

3) love the globadier models about the most of anything in the skaven catalogue, that's why i included so many. that being said, the current army build has only 1 unit of 10 in it.

4) LOL my 3rd favorite unit in the army, after globadiers & gutter runners. including them more for the coolness factor than for their usefulness (or lack thereof LOL).

5) see point 4 ;-) and yes after i toy around w/ the list a bit more i'll post an updated version WITH equipment/upgrades.

6) though i love the model, still not seeing the points for it @ 2000 points so sadly, for now this is a moot point :-(

7) never really dug the lightning cannon even back when it was first intro'ed in 6th edition. might be willing to give it a shot at some point but for now, wanna get a decent "base" army put together and then i can toy around with additional stuff after i get a few games under my belt.

thanx for the critique btw :-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
okay so after a bit of tweaking, this is what i ended up with (and again, going with models/units i like rather than going for an all-out unbeatable army list, just hoping this list isn't completely fatally flawed to the point of being totally hopeless LOL):

grey seer, hw, d3 warp tokens, foul pendant
warlock engineer lvl 2, hw
warlock engineer lvl 2, hw
assassin, hw, xhw, throwing stars, weeping blade
chieftain, hw, hvy armour, shield, battle standard

25 stormvermin, hw, halberd, hvy armour, shield, full command, warpfire thrower team
36 clanrats, hw, spear, light armour, shield, full command, warpfire thrower team
49 skavenslaves, hw, spear, shield

10 gutter runners, hw, xhw, throwing stars
10 gutter runners, hw, xhw, throwing stars
10 poison wind globadiers, hw, poison wind globes, hvy armour
rat ogre pack: 6 rat ogres + 2 packmasters, hw, whip, light armour (packmasters)

comes to an even 2000 points.

A few things:

- Your Seer and BSB should have the best protection they can. For your Seer, I'd recommend the Talisman of Preservation and the Ironcurse Icon, and/or Skalm and/or a Dispel Scroll. Otherwise, Skalm and a Power Scroll is a popular build, but super, super mean.
For the BSB, I'd go with Armour of Destiny and a halberd, assuming your Seer has the Talisman. Otherwise, I'd go with the Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield, halberd. If I really need points, I'll go Foul Pendant, Charmed Shield, halberd.

- Two lvl2's is probably overkill. I'd take of the wizard levels on one, give him the Doomrocket (the best item ever) and the other a Dispel Scroll.

- Assassin's aren't great, but they can be fun. A Potion of Strength would help him out tremendously.

- I wouldn't invest in weapon teams until you've got some solid Rare choices. The Doomwheel is subpar, honestly, but it's great at killing monsters. The Cannons are the best unit in the Skaven book; maybe one of the best in the game, but I understand if you don't want to use them.

- Stormvermin are okay, but I'd get them a magic standard (Shroud of Dripping Death is one of the best) to make them more worthwhile.

- Clanrats with spears don't last long. Clanrats with shields and spears cost .5pts more for very little boost. I'd drop one of the upgrades to save 18pts. As a general rule, spears are better than shields in one-on-one combat, but the shields will help them stay alive (and thus keep your characters safer for longer) and pin down targets for the good stuff.

- I've tried it time and time again, but here's the truth: 5-wide or 10-wide. Anything in-between probably won't work. Death Frenzied Slaves can be fun, but other than that, go 5-wide. Also: give your slaves spears, if you want, but not shields. Here's the math: Parry saves one in six slaves. Six shields cost 3pts. A slave with a shield costs 2.5pts. The 6+ armour makes the exchange very slightly more favourable, but still not a good one. It's not a big difference, but it's there. Pawleaders aren't a bad investment, by the way. For 4pts, you can chump-challenge those super-killy characters that can grind through your unit otherwise. It pays off often enough to make it tempting, and the times it doesn't? It was 4pts.

- Without slings and poisoned Attacks, Gutter Runners aren't really worth taking. Also, there is basically zero point to having two big units when three smaller ones will do. Two units of 7 and one of 6 (or two units of 6/7 with upgrades) is better in every way.

- ...Globadiers don't have heavy armour. Or have I missed something?

- those Rat Ogres need some more Packmasters. As many as they can manage, to avoid Ld5 Stupid. The Master-bred Rat Ogre is, by and large, one of the best champions ever. He's killed many a character, I assure you.

That's what I got.

Get a ward save for your BSB. Give him a halberd, too.

Your slaves are there only to tarpit. The only upgrade the unit should have is a musician so you can reform as necessary. Don't put any characters in the unit.

Drop the shields from the clanrats. They're just ablative armor/wounds for your character while he deals the real damage. I'd keep the spears though as having that third rank attacking is nice.