Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am making list for a turney comming soon its 1500p:


List A;

HQ:

Lib TDA (rage/shield)
Lib JP (Lance/FoD)

E:

3LC/2TH-SS Termies
Sang Guard (2IP/PF)
Sang Priest (JP/PW)

T:
2x5xASM(MG/PF)

H:
2xSR (MM/TLPC)

Tacs:

ASM+Lib will doa onto objectives , SG+SP in SR next to the other one with Terms+Lib. Dual SR will stay close togheter for SoS or Priest buble for the terms when lunched...

List B; is basicaly the same, just the SG is replaced by 10xASM with 2MG/PF spare points are used for either TH on ASM or Loc beacon for SR . Lib powers will be shifted to JP one will get SoS+FoD termie will get Rage+Might both will ride SR's.

Toughts?

Well, this list is a gamble as its very small. Shooting down two Stormravens is not a big issue for some armies and then you're screwed.

Well i do bet on the cover saves, either coming from reserves with SR's (flatting out 18"is still enough, get a 4+ cover and shoot 1weap) while 2xASM will doa T2+. IF i would get a T1 than i would rely either on SoS or again flatting out...

I personally find SR very capable of surviving until T4, mainly due to cover saves or SoS.


But i think i might struggle against IG/SW ...

Well, flat out means 24'' as its a skimmer.
On the other hand, as an Eldar player, I know that Serpents (which are as least as survivable as SRs) can be downed.

Yeah sorry i ment 24" ... well as you said its a gamble... but it might work, i hope

I might be able to suffle it around and get a DP Dread in even Lib dread ... at cost of a squad ... which might be a good T1 distraction what you think?

Well what you suggest than base it around LRR/C's ? or evenmore do DoA?

I'd take a Furioso Dread w/ blood talons in a Pod. It may serve as a distraction unit.

Yeah but what co cut? Sang Guard? Terms? ...

Well, in a 1500 pt list you have to stick to the basics.
The core could be 2x 10 Assault Marines w/ meltas and one Librarian w/ jp. This comes out at 595 pts.
Then adding 2 plain SR gives 995 pts.
This leaves 500 pts for more goodies, like 5 Assault Termies.

Another option would be to play shooty and take the SR as gun platforms each of which hosting a small AM unit for scoring purposes.

Yeah but the thing is i wont pack 10 ASM into SR so it is more flexible to get 5xASM and get double the goodies. As SR's are there just to get stuff in fast and clean some enemy off the way in the process.

Well, if the SRs crash, you'll eventually lose your scoring units.
You'll need a 3rd troop unit.

Well i do bet on skies of blood rule , which might not be so fatal to my troops due to JP , moreover as it can be used in enemy turn.

How about this

HQ:

Meph
Lib TDA (rage/shield)

E:
3LC/2TH-SS terms
Furiouso Dread (ExA,talons OR Frag+hvy F/BF than there is no melta on ASM)+ Drop pod
Sang priest

T:
5ASM JP naked
5ASM JP melta MB

H:
2x SR (ExA, MM, TLPC)

Now?

I'd scrap the terminators altogether - too slow for the rest of the army.

Try 1 HQ - FoD/shield or rage/shield with a JP

2 sang priests w/jp

sang guard fit it so fine

2x 10 man ASM w/ PF and 2 IP

2 Storm ravens w/EA

Spare points on more troops or some vanguard vets OR landspeeders w/multi-meltas to crack transports/cause havoc.

Seriously *TEN* scoring bodies in 1500pts when 67% of games are about objectives will get you nowhere!

Tactics - reserve - DoA the tac squads one with libby one with priest. Put the other priest and sang guard into a storm raven OR doa them (as you get a re-roll for them to come in.) Move the SR's in 6 and bloodstrike heavy armor. Use POTMS to fire your twin linked lascannon at something different. Pick up the pieces with the sang guard and ASM squads.

This may sound crazy, but I have seen Corbulo in SR lists to use the reroll on a failed cover save.

Have to echo Phototoxin, Ten scoring bodies is not alot. Consider taking 10 ASM squads without JP's in a SR. Coming out with furious charge they should be able to put a hurt on most things they assault.

Yeah i know using 10 bodies is way too much risk...and lucky Russ / stupid marbo can erase my chances, but still the pressure i guess would be on Terms+meph...

On the other hand while putting ASM w/out JP into SR ,wouldn’t LRC just do better for the same price tag? (-35p) So i would sacrifice mobility for durability, even more ability to make myself mobile bunker... But than speed >>> Armor in my book

LR list:

HQ:

Lib naked (rage-FoD / Shield)

E:
2xSP (naked)

T: 2x10ASM (PF 2MG) both LRC (ExA,MM) as dedicated transp
2x5ASM (one with only MB, other squad MG/PF) both TLAC as dedicated (prehaps one TL flamer than the unit would get MG/PF)

Prehaps change one 5xASM for Vindie and cut 10p somewhere

At 1500 points, with either dual LRs or dual SRs, you're going to have problems, because both of them are expensive transports. You end up spending most of your points on them plus their cargo, which means you don't have enough Troops. In addition, you put all your eggs in a small number of baskets. With the Stormravens, you aren't even fully leveraging your expensive investment, since you can't afford Dreadnoughts to put in them.

I think the Land Raider list is better, simply because Land Raiders are less fragile than Stormravens against most lists, especially at 1500 points. It still isn't a great list, though, for several reasons.

First, it's pretty slow. Second, you have very little fire support. Las/Plas or even TL-LC Razorbacks would be a better idea than TL-AC to help out, but it's still a drop in the bucket. There's no real way to fix that problem either, since your strategy more-or-less forces you to spend north of 1000 points on the Land Raides and their cargo, and the available Land Raider variants can't help you with fire support. I suppose the most drastic way to get some fire support into the list would be Devastators. If you dropped both 5 man Assault Squads, you'd be 40 points shy of being able to take 3 5 man Devastator Squads with 4 Missile Launchers. I suppose you could take only 3 Missile Launchers in each, so you'd only have to cut 10 points.

The final issue is that there are certain matchups that would be more-or-less an automatic loss. Dark Eldar would laugh you off the table, and I wouldn't want to take that list into the teeth of a Mech IG parking lot either. Tau and Necrons would be major problems too, since Tau have lots of S10 shooting and you can't deal with Necron Monoliths or really threaten to phase them out. The list is really best suited to beating MEQ armies and Orks.

I don't want to sound overly discouraging but I think this style of list plays better at 2000+ points.

So basically, at 1500 anything that works is either DoA list or Mech-RB spam?

I mean there has to be way how to field a different army and still compete... might think to re-do my list round one SR and devs... but still want to do 2SR in 1500

So basically, at 1500 anything that works is either DoA list or Mech-RB spam?

Truth spoken here.
Remember that at the 1500 pt level, you have to stick to the basics.

At some point i find this game very narrow minded, considering that you have 2 builds per army, with minor changes all over to be competetive...

Ok, you guys think that my original list woud not stand a chance against anything thats SW?IG parking lot?

Moreover thank you all for your contribution and help so far.

BloodTzar wrote:At some point i find this game very narrow minded, considering that you have 2 builds per army...

Couldn't agree more. I thought this way too for a long time. I tried different variants of BA before I realized that, yes there are really only 2 builds because of the way the rules are written. You have a ton of stuff to use but can only really use a small hand full of stuff that actually works. Such is the way of 40k and GW.

Having said that, you will want to stick with low cost HQ's in a lower than 2000 game. Libby, Captain (though some will say don't ever use them), or Reclusiarch. The only named HQ choice I would use in less than 2000 is Gabriel Seth, but that's as expensive as I would go.


Basically you have to think that most all other armies are much less expensive in points per model than yours. You can bet your ass they are going to cram as much into their armies as possible. 6 points a model is dramatically less than 16 points a model. That's 2.5 models to your 1. Not to mention that some other armies get furious charge and feels no pain without having to add an elite slot model per unit.

So that being said... you will need to fill as much into those points as well. Having 2 models that are 200 points each is not making the most out of your allotted points. Not to mention that other armies can field a lot of stuff to bring that model down on turn 1 then you have 200 points in a smoldering heap before you ever moved it.

Sang guards are complete crap imho, they are way too expensive for what they offer.

SR's are great but not in a lower point game.

Same goes with terminators.

While we have 3+ armor saves and if a priest is in range FNP in a 5 man group, you are still relatively squishy. You can't soak shots, you lose 2 guys you are morale testing. In a 10 man squad you lose 2 guys your still good to fight.

In a 1500 point game 1 HQ is plenty as you aren't going to have as much as other armies are on the board.

From reading your posts you are betting on a lot of circumstantial situations. You can't do that. If you are flying your SR around and an IG army has 3 auto cannon heavy weapons teams statistics are 1 of those shots are going to hit and/or penetrate your SR quite easily even though you have cover from smoke or moving flat out.

Anyway... just a few things to think about

I think another factor that contributes to the lack of truely competitive options is the inherent difficulty in reducing a unit to a point cost. It is quite common for a given unit, a Baal Predator, for example, to be more effective as you add similar units to your army. One Baal in an army that has no other vehicles isn't much of a threat. It can only threaten one enemy squad per turn, and is easily dealt with for any list build with a bare minimum of common sense. When you take a Baal and add it to an army that already has two, plus three regular Predators, it becomes much more of a threat. It is much more likely to get multiple rounds of shooting now, and adds to your opponent's list of hard-to-kill vehicles.

So, the same unit has different levels of usefulness depending on the army it's being added to, due to synergy. The rules require the price to be flat, so there's an inherent tension. More generally, we can view the construction of an army list as an attempt to maximize something (performance in the game), subject to constraints (the FOC, points limit, perhaps modelling restrictions or fluff restrictions).

As a general rule, when each additional whatever is less useful than the previous one added, we expect the solutions to include a mix of the available choices. When each additional whatever added is more useful than the previous one, we expect the solution to include as few as possible given the constraints. The latter case is what I'm arguing is 40k reality. There are some units that become less useful as you add more, at least eventually. Sanguinary Priests are an example. But, most units keep getting better, at least at the levels that the FOC and points levels commonly used allow. I have three Auto/Las Predators in my list, but I would have more if I could.

So, given this reality, we have to expect that competitive builds are going to end up involving spam. A very skilled player might break this a bit, since they might prefer more tools in their toolkit over having more of the same, effective tool, but I still think they would mostly spam. A good example of this is Dakkaite Dash of Pepper. I don't want to attract any of the drama that his threads seem to produce, so I'm only claiming he's a good player. His Dark Eldar lists are mostly spaming Warriors in Venoms, Trueborn and Ravagers, but he does take one unit of Wyches and one unit of Beastmasters in his tourny list.

BloodTzar, if you don't like playing mech spam or DoA, then don't. Playing 40k should never be work and you shouldn't play something you wouldn't enjoy. As commentaters in a forum, we're pretty much reduced to some combination of giving the most objective advice possible and giving our personal opinions. Since the only way to really be objective is to focus on competitiveness, advice based on what's competitive is going to be what you can expect.

PS: Only having 1-2 competitive builds per army really isn't surprising if you've played something like Magic: The Gathering before. Lots of options, but only a few good decks at any particular time. You can try something else, but you'll lose on average.

I disagree. There are lots of 'builds' - what you really mean is that there are only a couple of 'optimal' builds.

Spam isn't compeditive. It's arrogant. it says 'this is the best unit for this FOC ergo I take 3/6 of them'.

Spam is one tracked. Sure you know what each unit does but you are limited. It's more psychological for the enemy I guess 'If I kill X squad theres Y more of them!' but that just messses up target priority.

It is perfectly possible to be able to handle all types of threats in a list with lots of spam. That's basically the idea; you find effective units that accomplish a goal, and take as many as you can.

Mech DE lists are a great example of this. Trueborn in Venoms cover anti-vehicle, anti-MEQ, anti-TEQ, anti-Horde and anti-MC for a pretty cheap price. Players that take 3 such units aren't being arrogant, they're being smart.

I also disagree that spamming implies a belief that whatever you spam is the best unit for the FOC slot. Take Vanguard Vets as an example. I think we can agree that they are not the best unit in the Blood Angels FA slot; if such a unit exists, it's the Baal Predator. But, in a DoA list, they have better synergy than the Baals, so I would use them.

Ultimately, spam is based on finding units that, if left unmolested, can win the game for you, and then taking a lot of them to overwhelm your opponent's ability to counter them.

You are, of course, completely correct that there are many builds. The reason we focus on finding optimal builds is that any other advice is inherently subjective.