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...you make the call (40K): a squadron consisting of two vehicles is being targeted by three models. Each model has clear LOS to one of the vehicles, but two of them can only see less than half of the other vehicle when drawing LOS (the third model can clearly see it). Is the squadron considered obscured and thus benefit from a cover save ?

For additional clarity...all three models have a clear LOS to one of the vehicles, but only one has clear LOS to the other vehicle whereas two of the models see just under 50% of the other vehicle.

Viewing the squadron as a whole unit, it is roughly 23% obscured...

If memory serves, If half of the squadron is obscured, the entire squadron gains a cover-save in a similar method to infantry units, one trick i've seen done is have one russ in a 2 strong unit pop smoke while the other fires.

I don't think you get the cover save in the OP's situation. I don't think that one memeber of a unit can give cover/obscure to another. Also see p.16 of the Basic Rules, as long as you can see one member of the unit then you can fire and p.22 where it states that you do not get cover from members of your unit.

yes i believe that they act like other models if 50% of the unit is in cover the whole unit gets cover.

though thats cool to have one leman russ pop smoke they both get it, helps with those pesky stuned results.

The proper procedure would be for each firing squad member:

1) Check LoS to Vehicle A to see if it is obscured.
2) Check LoS to Vehicle B to see if it is obscured.
3) Check LoS to Vehicle C to see if it is obscured.
4) If for steps 1 - 3, 50% or more of the vehicles are obscured, the squadron counts as Obscured for that squad member.

5) If the squadron is obscured for 50% or more of the firing squad members, then the squadron gets its cover saves from being Obscured.
6) If the squadron is obscured for less than 50% of the firing squad members, the squadron does not count as obscured and does not benefit from any cover saves from the firing squadron.

In your specific example with 3 firing squad members and two vehicles:

Squad Member A: No Vehicles Obscured.
Squad Member B: 50% of the Vehicles are Obscured.
Squad Member C: 50% of the Vehicles are Obscured.

Thus by step 5, the vehicle squadron counts as Obscured for more than 50% of your firing squad. Thus the vehicle squadron counts as being Obscured.

so long story short, he got the cover save.
But like Leo said the squad cannot give cover to itself. In other words one tank cannot block LOS to the other if in a squad, it's just like a squad of infantry.

That is correct, however it isn't the situation being described.

Take the following example.

The X markers are the shooting models. MM is a blocking terrain of some kind. The P markers are two Tau Pirahnas in a squadron.

The first X has a clear LoS to the first P but his view of the other P is obscured. The other two Xs can see P no.2 but their view of the first P is obscured.

X   X   X

  MM
P         P

Right. You want to say that since both of the Piranhas are out in the open for one or more squad members, they shouldn't get cover. Unfortunately that's not the way that the LoS rules for cover work. You have to work out whether the entire Squad is in cover from each member of the firing unit. If one vehicle is exposed, it doesn't matter if 50% of the squad or more is still obscured.

You determine if a squadron is in cover in exactly the same fashion as you would for any other multi-model unit.

For each member of the squadron, you determine if it is in cover by checking LOS from the firing unit. If the vehicle is obscured from the point of view of the majority of the firing models, it is in cover.

You then count the number of vehicles that are in cover. If half or more of the squadron is in cover, the unit gets a cover save. If not, they don't.

Right. So in my example, the leftmost Piranha is obscured from the majority of the firing unit. It is 50% of the squadron. The squadron as a whole therefore gets a cover save.

insaniak wrote:You determine if a squadron is in cover in exactly the same fashion as you would for any other multi-model unit.

For each member of the squadron, you determine if it is in cover by checking LOS from the firing unit. If the vehicle is obscured from the point of view of the majority of the firing models, it is in cover.

You then count the number of vehicles that are in cover. If half or more of the squadron is in cover, the unit gets a cover save. If not, they don't.

I like to call this the 50/50 rule. If 50% of the firing squad sees 50% of their target in cover, then the target gets cover. But I thought the vehicle squadron had a rule stating that individual tank model in the squadron are independent of each other? Of course, I could easily be completely wrong because we really do not have any regular IG players where I live at.

Youre wrong, in that for cover saves it is s till a unit by unit thing - either the unit gets a save or it doesnt.

The only reason the vehicles are independent is when assigning and resolving damage results - you treat each vehicle as a unique model then.

toxic_wisdom wrote:

Viewing the squadron as a whole unit, it is roughly 23% obscured...

Based on this simple assertation, the answer is no.

With vehicle squadrons, look at it as if it were an infantry unit to try and decide if a cover save is valid. If the majority of firing models can see the majority of the squadron then no cover save.

Because all 3 of the firing models can see 1 whole model and at least a portion of the 2nd model, a cover save is not valid. If 2 firing models could only see 1 model, and the 3rd could see both, then the squadron would then be able to claim a 4+ cover save.

EDIT: see below - Nos has quite dutifully corrected my mis-statement.

Ork - no, not correct.

If one vehicle has 50%+ of its face obscured from 50%+ of the firing models, that vehicle is "obscured" aka "in cover"

If the vehicle unit only contains 2 models, then 1 model is in cover and 1 is not, meaning 50% of the unit is in cover and therefore the ENTIRE unit gains a cover save.

Similar situation with different results:

1...2...3
x........x

A........B

----------------------------

Squad 1,2,3 is firing at Squadron A,B.

1 Can see B, 2 can see A and B, 3 can see A.
The majority of the squad can see A (2/3 members), and the majority of the squad can see B (2/3 members). No cover is granted.

Compare to Kill's example where two models are unable to see the same target versus 2 models being unable to see 2 different targets.

I disagree.

From the point of squad-member 1 the squadron is granted cover saves as 50% or more of the squadron is obscured.

From the point of squad-member 2 the squadron is not granted cover saves as less than 50% of the squadron is obscured.

From the point of squad-member 3 the squadron is granted cover saves as 50% or more of the squadron is obscured.

Thus from the majority of the members of the squad the majority of the squadron is in cover, granting the squadron as a while a cover save.

Steelmage99 wrote:I disagree.

From the point of squad-member 1 the squadron is granted cover saves as 50% or more of the squadron is obscured.

From the point of squad-member 2 the squadron is not granted cover saves as less than 50% of the squadron is obscured.

From the point of squad-member 3 the squadron is granted cover saves as 50% or more of the squadron is obscured.

Thus from the majority of the members of the squad the majority of the squadron is in cover, granting the squadron as a while a cover save.

That's not how it works, you check per vehicle, not per firer, see pg 62, first bullet point.

For A to be obscured, 50% of it has to be hidden from the majority of the firing models. A is visible to #2 and #3, so it is not obscured.

For B to be obscured, 50% of it has to be hidden from the majority of the firing models. B is visible to #1 and #2, so it is not obscured.

Neither vehicle is obscured, so squadron rules are not applied for cover.

You are absolutely right.