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Hey there,

I am currently DMing a 4th ed campaign with a fairly standard setting (veering towards Norse inspirations) and plenty of character development, and one player in my party, a Lawful Good dwarven cleric of Bahamut (God of nobility, honor, justice, and protection of the weak), has been lax in his Good-ness (if that makes any sense). He's eager to burn and steal and bribe and kill for monetary gain, killing first and asking questions later.

I imagine that he'd be confronted by his god with a Test of Faith after many such incidents to right his path away from the slippery slope to darkness and remind him of his oaths. But, the issue is, I'm drawing a blank on ideas. Would the kind folk of Dakka be good enough to offer any suggestions?

Much appreciated.

Cleric of Bahamut, eh?

Test of Charity: Have him encounter a destitute old white haired man who is need of assistance. The man does not have enough strength (or cash) to make it to the next town and asks for the cleric's assistance. If the player doesn't help him, he might be surprised that the gods sometimes walk the earth to test their servants.

Test of Justice: Have the party encounter a dispute in the wilderness. Two Jarls or nobles have drawn blades over a dispute over where one's land begins and the other's ends. One has a clearer deed to the land and is able to show the claim; the other is a rich 'new money' lord who has been moving in on everyone around. The recognize the cleric's faith by his rainments and ask him to mediate. At some point, the rich one may drop a hint that he would be very grateful to get this ordeal overwith. wink wink.

Either way, you can drop these types of tests in front of him and if he fails, he may find himself well on his way to following Bane rather than Bahamut.

Which brings up another idea. Rather than having Bahamut test him, why not have followers of Bane acknowledge him with respect. Nothing more embarassing as a 'good guy' than to see a big 'evil' cleric of Bane walking down the street who bows to you. Maybe even try to recruit him.

That should give him pause.

Those are some brilliant ideas.

I think you're right in saying he'd start being contacted by agents of Bane if he continues, since he'd be more of a cleric of Bane than of Bahamut.

I don't know which would be more effective, the cleric of Bane's acknowledgment of respect or a test by the Platinum Dragon.

Tell us how it works out. I'm curious to see which way he turns.

You don't have to go from one god to another, he could just lose the one he has. Next time he tries to heal someone or do something with the Divine keyword politely inform him that nothing happens. Until he redeems himself his patron has turned away from him.

That can be really rough from a gaming standpoint. I agree that such a thing is effective in turning around behavior, but how many sessions does the party go through with a member who can't pull their weight? I am not a fan of taking things away from players, although taking things from characters is fine.

Although you could have him remake his character as something martial if he loses his divine powers or his desperation might force him to an immediate bargain with another god.

You would have to make them go on a side quest to redeem themselves, and considering that I've known campaigns that have run for years i don't think 2 or 3 sessions for the Dwarf to find his faith again is to much to ask, unless it is just a throwaway character anyway. Of course if that is true, then it doesn't really matter in the first place.

Ahtman wrote:You don't have to go from one god to another, he could just lose the one he has. Next time he tries to heal someone or do something with the Divine keyword politely inform him that nothing happens. Until he redeems himself his patron has turned away from him.

I would worry this isn't "in the 4th edition style" if you're bothered by that. For groups that are big on storyline, it's workable. For groups that want a 'sandbox' with strict rules adherence... not so much.

On the other hand, it could be... interesting... to build up a plot thread that there's a scary team of badasses wandering through the region. They don't take anything, and the people they've killed aren't exactly pillars of the community, but everyone's pretty scared of them. Let it be a slow build-up over a few sessions, then the party finds out it's a brutal, but lawful-good, party of Paladins, Clerics, etc. of Bahamut. They received a vision of this wayward cleric and set out on a little quest/crusade to find him and punish him.

The Opposition needs to be built up as a near-unbeatable threat. Several levels above the PCs, and not above striking after they've done something (like the aforementioned looting).

They attack single-mindedly with purpose. They won't even touch the other party members unless attacked first, and will even offer a peaceful surrender ("You aren't our target. Walk away. Now."). They're here for the cleric, and everyone else is outside their objective.

And they have all those PC powers and tricks, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You mention a 'norse' theme... Depending on the exact definition of this, I'd also recommend making sure the player doesn't think that his behavior is appropriate for the setting. "Lawful Good' for a mythical-viking flavored game might mean when you bribe someone they stay bribed, and it's OK to steal if they're not your people.

I'm not saying they have to pick one or the other, just that there are options beyond going straight from a lawful good deity to a evil one.

Ahtman wrote:I'm not saying they have to pick one or the other, just that there are options beyond going straight from a lawful good deity to a evil one.

Well that's why he has tests of faith as well. Some steps to give the player before he loses his power. Bahamut has been known to walk the world before, so this wouldn't be the first time he takes a personal interest in something on the Prime.

Giving the character some warnings and chances tro atone is definitely a good idea.

I don't know how 4th ed but if it's similar to older editions where you have to meditate/pray/whatever for spells, perhaps he only gets some of the spells? You'll have to pick and choose which ones. The nice healing spells? Yeah he can get those. The ones where he gets to smite people? Not quite so much as his deity can't trust him with those spells.

Balance wrote:

Ahtman wrote:You don't have to go from one god to another, he could just lose the one he has. Next time he tries to heal someone or do something with the Divine keyword politely inform him that nothing happens. Until he redeems himself his patron has turned away from him.

I would worry this isn't "in the 4th edition style" if you're bothered by that. For groups that are big on storyline, it's workable. For groups that want a 'sandbox' with strict rules adherence... not so much.

On the other hand, it could be... interesting... to build up a plot thread that there's a scary team of badasses wandering through the region. They don't take anything, and the people they've killed aren't exactly pillars of the community, but everyone's pretty scared of them. Let it be a slow build-up over a few sessions, then the party finds out it's a brutal, but lawful-good, party of Paladins, Clerics, etc. of Bahamut. They received a vision of this wayward cleric and set out on a little quest/crusade to find him and punish him.

The Opposition needs to be built up as a near-unbeatable threat. Several levels above the PCs, and not above striking after they've done something (like the aforementioned looting).

They attack single-mindedly with purpose. They won't even touch the other party members unless attacked first, and will even offer a peaceful surrender ("You aren't our target. Walk away. Now."). They're here for the cleric, and everyone else is outside their objective.

And they have all those PC powers and tricks, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You mention a 'norse' theme... Depending on the exact definition of this, I'd also recommend making sure the player doesn't think that his behavior is appropriate for the setting. "Lawful Good' for a mythical-viking flavored game might mean when you bribe someone they stay bribed, and it's OK to steal if they're not your people.

Well, he paid to have dragon scales forged into his shield and immediately tried to steal it back. By Norse, I mean more like drawing inspiration from things like Beowulf, Winterfell in the Game of Thrones, several places like that. Honor is paramount, and it's not quite as brutal as actual Viking society, fairly standard beyond changes in weather, flavor, and monsters encountered.

I really want to offer him the chance to atone and redeem himself before being forsaken by Bahamut, but if it got too bad, he'd be approached by a shard of Bane (maybe in a dream or something), offering him power and support of actions that Bahamut would frown upon. We do enough combat so that being powerless for too long may make him unmotivated to participate, so i think I'd go with that.

The avenging hunters are an excellent idea for a recurring villain to remind him of what he turned away from. I think I'd use that.

Another option is to talk to him out of game briefly and ask him about his character and his motivations. Try to keep it non-accusatory and just ask where he sees his character going, what he sees as his motivations, etc.

Ultimately D&D is about having fun. He may think it is awesome that he is falling from grace and want an in depth storyline to accompany it or may be completely oblivious to it.

Elector wrote:
Well, he paid to have dragon scales forged into his shield and immediately tried to steal it back. By Norse, I mean more like drawing inspiration from things like Beowulf, Winterfell in the Game of Thrones, several places like that. Honor is paramount, and it's not quite as brutal as actual Viking society, fairly standard beyond changes in weather, flavor, and monsters encountered.

An interesting idea would be to have anything Bahamut-connected remind him of his transgressions.Have meaningful phrases recur in plot events: For this instance, maybe have NPCs from a warrior culture they're interacting with regularly mention how people should 'honor the smiths who make the weapons of war' or similar.

And, of course, good luck buying armor and weapons if that story gets out. Cash on the barrel, and a markup for dealing with the dishonorable scum. People tend to treat 'fallen heroes' particularly poorly.

Elector wrote:
I really want to offer him the chance to atone and redeem himself before being forsaken by Bahamut, but if it got too bad, he'd be approached by a shard of Bane (maybe in a dream or something), offering him power and support of actions that Bahamut would frown upon. We do enough combat so that being powerless for too long may make him unmotivated to participate, so i think I'd go with that.

That makes sense and sounds fair. As pretre suggested, talking to the guy makes sense as well.

Elector wrote:
The avenging hunters are an excellent idea for a recurring villain to remind him of what he turned away from. I think I'd use that.

The main concern here is to make sure they're powerful enough to deal with the entire party, but you don't end up discouraging the rest of the group to deal with one problem. Maybe build them heavy on stuns and such, but play them as not following up on them lethally.

Maybe make their goal capture and subsequent trial of the miscreant, not outright killing. This gives the miscreant PC some choice. This is more a rough council before elder clerics or such, not a full real-world trial, so don't feel constrained by court rules. The Elders may feel that the miscreant deserves a chance to atone, and offers a choice between punishment by being stripped of all rank or undertaking a quest (which means you can point the PCs at the next adventure ). Of course, the PCs could be offered the 'dark path' of springing their friend, which pretty much means severing all ties with the church and country it's from.

Very good idea, gives them a choice, and consequences for just breaking laws would be readily apparent (to prevent murder sprees)

I like the idea of role-playing the character development over just spontaneous character attitude shift, I'd offer him choices (I genuinely think he's trying to improve), so the forks in the road would help. ( Also, the band chasing them would involve the whole party, especially if they stand by the renegade). Not going for lethal hunters, if they are very powerful, they'd follow Bahamut's code and bring the renegade in for a just trial of faith (again, offered the choices to atone on a quest or be stripped of the trappings and rank of priesthood.)

Balance wrote:You mention a 'norse' theme... Depending on the exact definition of this, I'd also recommend making sure the player doesn't think that his behavior is appropriate for the setting. "Lawful Good' for a mythical-viking flavored game might mean when you bribe someone they stay bribed, and it's OK to steal if they're not your people.

While that may be "normal" in the kind of setting you are describing, it is still not *Lawful Good* as the alignment is defined in the game context. That would be more unaligned, bordering on evil, than Lawful Good. The alignment system are the absolutes, not "In this setting it means this", to clearly define the character's moral compass within the game context. Just because something is normal in a campaign, doesn't change these absolutes at all.

There are some really good ideas in this thread. While the group of hunters is a cool storytelling idea, don't make them so incredibly powerful over the PCs. Make a small group to deal with the Cleric, but don't be surprised if the rest of the PCs refuse to just walk away while their associate is taken into custody. If the group stops his punishment and kills agents of Bahamut a few times in this manner *then* send in the heavy hitters. If you send in the heavy hitters immediately you will likely just kill the whole party because of the mistakes one player was making.

Power loss on the part of the character focuses the limits on the person causing the problem in the first place. Make his offensive spells stop working, but his healing and supportive magic still works fine, but *only* when used for the betterment or healing of someone else. If he tries to use Healing word on himself it fails. If the player doesn't get the hint. Take away everything but healing magic used on others. At this point the rest of the group might start getting a clue even if the player in question doesn't. If they still don't get it, send in a messenger from Bahamut in whatever form you like. Communication first. Have them lay it out: You have offended Bahamut with your actions. You must atone. You will be presented with some challanges that will test his adherence to the ideals of Bahamut and must walk the straight and narrow. If he fails at these things he is cast out as a follower of Bahamut and must find another faith to follow to regain his powers. None of the priestly powers are based on any specific deity so that happens. His alignment should then shift to unaligned from then on. If the character does terrible things in Bahamut's name then I would send in some paladins, avengers and/or Invokers to make him change his ways.

If this is all too much work, or too story heavy for you, take the player aside and say that the way he plays his character is not really in line with a Lawful Good priest of Bahamut and have him change the alignment and deity to work better with how he wants to play the character. Nothing wrong with that at all...a quick story rewrite and all is dealt with.

Being Lawful Good is hard. It is supposed to be hard. It is an ideal of morality that many hope to fulfill, but few truly attain. Chaotic evil is just as hard to play effectively as a PC and unaligned is the easiest to play because there really are no restrictions really on what you can and can't do. Again, though, actions speak louder than the words written on the character sheet.

Hopefully you can sort it all out well...

Skriker