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The past few weeks I've been playing a few games of 40k against my friend who plays orks, and I play BT. His general list consists of to mobs of 20 boyz and a nob w/PK (1 blob shoota 1 blob slugga), with the slugga mob protected by a kan wall of 3 kans and both mobs by a big mek w/KFF. Then he also has a few (5? 10?) lootas. My list is 2 close combat squads in rhinos, one with 7 initiates, 2 neophytes, and the EC (with AACNMTO of course), and the other with 8 and 2. The crusader squads each have 1 PF/BP and a meltagun. Then for more ranged support I have 2 land speeder typhoons. Any tips or tactics on how I should approach his army?

And this is at 750 points.

Just a few tips I have try to play with against orks:

-Templates and blasts are your friend.

-Don't let them get the assault. If this means you have to charge in with 2 neophytes to tie them up, then do it.

-Kan walls work both ways, so you get cover from his sluggas at 4+ too. Don't forget that little gem.

-Kan walls also only work in squadrons, so if you immobilize one, it is destroyed. Destroying on a penetrating hit of 4 up is nice.

-cgmckenzie

The problem is that you're playing against Kan Wall Orks at 750 points.

Simply speaking, there is no better list at that points level between every single army in 40k.

How you can go about beating it, though, is to use the fact that Templars are basically Orks in Power Armor. What does this mean for you? Charge them. You will win combat if you get the charge off. This will thin down the number far enough that you'll end up winning the war of attrition.

Couple things, though.

1.) Focus your shooting on the Kans. They're the only thing you really need to worry about in CC if you manage to get the charge off.

2.) Pack a Fist in each squad, just in case you do get hit by Kans.

3.) Drop the Neophytes. Really, just do it.

4.) Stay in your Rhinos till he gets within 14" of them, then hop out 2", move and charge him.

I play Orks, and my most frequent opponent is a Black Templar player. In our games, 9 out of 10 close combats are decided by who gets the charge off. The other ones are assaults that are predetermined simply because of the units involved. I.E., LC assault termies sodomizing anything they touch.

Amusing thought of a Assault Terminator that LITERALLY sodomizes everything he touches.

cgmckenzie wrote:Just a few tips I have try to play with against orks:

-Templates and blasts are your friend.

-Don't let them get the assault. If this means you have to charge in with 2 neophytes to tie them up, then do it.

-Kan walls work both ways, so you get cover from his sluggas at 4+ too. Don't forget that little gem.

-Kan walls also only work in squadrons, so if you immobilize one, it is destroyed. Destroying on a penetrating hit of 4 up is nice.

-cgmckenzie

1. Yeap.

2. Uh. Righteous Zeal kiiiiinda prevents that. If you're not a BT player, everytime a squad takes one or more unsaved wound, they MUST take a moral check. If they pass, then they charge D6" towards the nearest enemy. If they fail, nothing happens.

3. With a 3+ armor save, why would you ever take a 4+ save over that???

4. Why ONLY in squadrons? Can't you run two or three seperate kans? I don't use the kan wall tactic, so I don't know.

I play both Orks and Templars, love both armies. At 750 points though... that's so small. If it were larger, or if you are willing to give up some points, bring a Chaplain or a Castellan/Marshal (Marshall, imo. LD 10 for your whole army...) and give him the Holy Orb of Antioch (Monty Python refference ). Hits using ballistic skill on a small blast weapon, wounds on a 2+ regardless of toughness, hits with an AP of... 3, I believe, could be 4, automatic glancing on vehicles even if the template is just BARELY over the model/base. So totally worth the 15 points. I can't run Templars without it.

Oh yea, and LC Termies. Reroll misses AND failed wounds. SO OP for Templars. Or you could give one or two to that Marshall/castellan/Chaplain that's carrying the Holy Orb

jeleopard wrote:3. With a 3+ armor save, why would you ever take a 4+ save over that???

Rokkits penetrate that armor.

4. Why ONLY in squadrons? Can't you run two or three seperate kans? I don't use the kan wall tactic, so I don't know.

You get cover if the enemy is shooting trough in between two models of a squadron, not between two different units. The also usually field nine kanz, not three, which would leave no slots open.

If those kanz are trouble, you could try terminators with cyclon rocket launchers, they are really good against kanz and boyz, which probably is most of his army.

Orks are very effective when played competently. However, a lot of their success is based on getting the charge. If you can whittle them down to even 3/4s of their original strength and then manage a charge on them, you'll be in good shape.

With a kan wall list, just use target prioritization. Kans are certainly durable, but enough shots will take em down, even with a 4+ save. Prioritize the kans, then the boyz, specifically the mob with the KFF mek.

Hmm thanks for the tips guys, I'll definitely keep the 4+ cover through the kans in mind, as well as the squadron bit that Jidmah brought up. I know it's hard with BT in small games, but both of us are still building our armies, and hopefully the BT battleforce I'm getting soon will help move us towards larger games.

Since your Typhoons can outmaneuver the lootas by moving and firing, you might try putting everything in reserves except the Typhoons. Focus fire on the loota squads to break them and make them run. If you suceed in that on turn one or two, your templars will be arriving from reserve. USe the fact that you get to choose where they arrive to once again outmaneuver the orks. Come on at some distant table edge that will force the orks to redirect and spend more time trying to run to where you are at. Hit their kanz with the Typhoons as they redirect. Hopefully you can kill one or two of them before they make it into melee. Dont play his game. Make hime come to you and punish him with your typhoons once you have air suppiriority. When he is within range of a rhino rush, place both rhinos so that one of his ork mobs will have a hard time coming to grips with you. Get out and shoot the other mob with both units of marines.

When following the above advice, keep in mind that Kanz usually have 24" rokkits that even have a chance to hit the broad side of a barn. Those rhinos or speeds have a descent chance of simply getting blown up if you are not careful.

This is a good point. what does your orky freind run on his Kanz. Hereabouts guys have been running grotzooka so maybe i am out of the loop abit.

He generally runs them all with rokkitz. I can usually take down the lootas and kans with little problems, but by then its already turn 3 or 4 and I have trouble taking on the 2 still strong mobs of boyz.

Just make sure that you take out the lootas and then the Kanz. If you can pull this off you should be able to stay out of range of his orky weapons with your speeders. The speeders should have HB on them or HF. either one will work fine for raining death on the mobs from a distance. By the time you have disabled his loota mob, your two troops should be arriving from reserve. Try to put them as far from the orks as possible on the board. Dismount and line up so that you can fire at the orks as they advance with your foot troops. Only try to batter down 1 unit at a time with focused fire from your speeders and troops. The rhino are meanwhile still useful for tanks shocks and just as blockers. If you can use them to interfere with his advance in any way so as to slow his approach with both mobs then do it. Remember. when you tank shock he will only get to attack with a PK or a RL if you actualy hit the ork that is holding the weapon. otherwise you can use tankshocks to just put a hard to hit vehicle in the way of his advance. You should be able to pull off a win this way. Orks are a very easy army to play so your opponent has this on his side. You are going to have to use tactics for the win, but it will be a win well deserved.

Hmm ok. My problem is that at 750 points I only have room for 2 Typhoons, and I have to be in range of the Lootas to kill them. So if I don't take out the lootas in one turn there's a good chance my ranged firepower will be taken out (or at least greatly reduced).

Typhoons aren't barrage, right? If they were, the kan wall would be ineffectual and you could get straight to the sweet, orky center of his army.

-cgmckenzie

Typhoons are not barrage, but act as 2 missile launchers (frag and krak upon choice).

Ok. Been a long while since I played SM or their subsequent chapters. I think your best bet might be to hit the kans with something heavy before they get to you, like a melta volley, then proceed to open fire on the boyz once the cover is gone.

-cgmckenzie

lootas are range 48, same as your speeders. If you set up so you are just out of range of his lootas, You can move up 12 and fire one weapon (the Typhoon) per speeder. Hopefully 4 Frag shots should take out enough lootas to cause a moral test or at least kill a bunch of em.

Alright, thanks. Once the imminent threat of the lootas is gone, what should be my next target? Because the kans need to go down (or at least be slowed down), but taking out the mek with the KFF would help that a bunch.

To take down the mek, you either need to shoot up the whole mob or charge it and kill it in close combat. Unless you do this with assault terminators or a large troop squad, your unit will most likely not survive the combat. However, you could sacrifice your emperor's champion to do this, as he gets placed in base contact to the bigmek.

gpfunk wrote:Orks are very effective when played competently. However, a lot of their success is based on getting the charge. If you can whittle them down to even 3/4s of their original strength and then manage a charge on them, you'll be in good shape.

With a kan wall list, just use target prioritization. Kans are certainly durable, but enough shots will take em down, even with a 4+ save. Prioritize the kans, then the boyz, specifically the mob with the KFF mek.

This is really good advice here. Specifically about the boyz. Ive noticed that the large number of boyz puts people off more then 6 nobz or a MegaBoss, which I personally know, the 6 Nobz are far more scary and I use a solo Mega Armored Boss alot, and I think he does alot more work then a bunch of boyz. So agreed, if you can even 1 volley, whittle down a unit of boyz and then assault them, specially with SM, they are incredibly less effective. 4+ to hit, 5+ to wound and you still get saves? The only thing then to even worry about is the PK Nob, ad at his BEST youll lose 3 marines, chances are good youll win a combat in that situation.

Also dont ignore those kans and try killing off the boyz, those Kans are priority 1 and they will go down, then its just the mass of boyz.

SO it seems like everyone agrees that...
Killing the Kanz is very important.
Get off a volley or two into the boys and then charge.

I personally think that if you can take down the lootas to give your speeders a little breathing room on turn one, that this would be a good thing.

Let us know how your next match turns out.

Thanks a ton guys, this has given my quite a few things to think about in my games. I'll let you know how the next game turns out, I think I'm going to keep the rhinos in reserve, and start with only the land speeders on the board.