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How does one determine what is visible for things such as Rage?

Oh, thats a good one to start your Dakka reign on.

*Gets popcorn*

lolwut?

visible
Adjective1. Able to be seen.
2. (of light) Within the range of wavelengths to which the eye is sensitive.

Because it has to be visible to the unit, go with true line of sight; if the unit can see it the unit rages at it.

Chaos_Destroyer wrote:How does one determine what is visible for things such as Rage?

Read the rulebook for determining line of sight. If two models have LoS to eachother, then they're visible.

I ask because I was under the impression that infantry/non-vehicle models have basically a 360 degree los and don't have facings and fire arcs like vehicles, but some say that you still have to use TLOS and go from the point of view of the models eyes. So if they aren't facing an enemy unit, then they don't have to move towards it.

For example, unit A has Rage and is between units B and C, and is 3" from unit B. However, they are facing unit C which is 4" away. I thought they would have to move towards unit B but I am being told that since they are "looking" at unit C only, then they have to move towards unit C, even though unit B is closer.

Unit B.. 3".. Unit A.. 4".. Unit C

Let me give a more accurate example of the scenario I faced. I have 2 models left out of a Tactical squad that are holding an objective. The enemy Death Company in a Rhino moved toward the objective last turn and I destroyed it with a lascannon this turn, forcing the Death Company out. The Death company disembarks from the wreck all facing toward the tactical squad, and this puts the Death Company in move and assault range of my objective, which I will lose if they assault me. In order to draw them away from my objective, I turbo boosted a unit of bikes right behind them, about 4" away from the Death Company Rhino in case I destroyed it or wrecked it. The tactical squad holding the objective is about 10 inches away from the Death Company. However, my opponent says since the tactical squad was in his LOS at the beginning of his movement phase, and that the Rage rules say they must move towards the closest visible enemy, that the death company move towards the tactical squad and not the bike squad since all the models in the death company were facing towards the tactical squad.

yeah as long as the death company unit had line of sight to the bikes (and as far as i understood they did) you got cheated.
your opponent is, and forgive the vernacular, an asshat for playing you that way.
it reminds me of that RAW thread, where rules as written wraithlords don't have eyes so thusly you can't check los from "their pov" and thus can't shoot.

Page 16 says it all:

"Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part of the body of at least one of the models in the target unit"

later on it states: "Firing models can always draw LoS through members of their own unit (Just as if they were not there),"

Since you ignore members of their own unit you can trace LoS in a 360 arc regardless of the facing of the model. The eyes can trace LoS out the side and back of the models head because the model you are checking LoS for is a "Member of their own unit"

Only if all the Death Company Models could not draw LoS to the bikes (Because of an intervening wall, building, friendly tank, etc.) then he would have to go at the tac squad.

How does this interact with vehicles, like a walker with Rage?

Steelmage99 wrote:How does this interact with vehicles, like a walker with Rage?

Vehicles draw LoS from their weapon mounts - the arcs of their weapons determine what they can see (ridiculous in this context but we have no instructions on drawing LoS outside of shooting, to create a non-shooting mechanism that required LoS was a poor decision).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:Since you ignore members of their own unit you can trace LoS in a 360 arc regardless of the facing of the model. The eyes can trace LoS out the side and back of the models head because the model you are checking LoS for is a "Member of their own unit"

So vehicle sponsons are able to shoot through their own hulls if their movement permits it? No.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:How does this interact with vehicles, like a walker with Rage?

Vehicles draw LoS from their weapon mounts - the arcs of their weapons determine what they can see (ridiculous in this context but we have no instructions on drawing LoS outside of shooting, to create a non-shooting mechanism that required LoS was a poor decision).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:Since you ignore members of their own unit you can trace LoS in a 360 arc regardless of the facing of the model. The eyes can trace LoS out the side and back of the models head because the model you are checking LoS for is a "Member of their own unit"

So vehicle sponsons are able to shoot through their own hulls if their movement permits it? No.

We were talking about infantry, not vehicles. The rules I quoted were in response to Chaos_Destroyer's post where he was talking about his death company that had just been forced to exit the rhino.

However Page 58, under the vehicle weapons & LoS heading states: "Just like infantry, vehicles need to be able to draw a LoS to their targets in order to shoot at them"

so vehicles fire Just like infantry and models can see and shoot through members of their own unit, just as if they were not there.

So actually yes, if a vehicles own hull blocks LoS it should be ignored "just like infantry" But that is the Strict RaW interpretation.

There is also the section on Turning and Facing on page 11, which seems to imply (although it doesn't make it as clear as it could) that infantry models have 360 degree LOS.