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Perhaps my thread title is an oxymoron? This post will seem a bit lengthy for a rather simple question. I hope to put my views into perspective for you all.

For as long as I can remember, I have been bamboozled by anything with an Armor Value. It seems to me, and my regular opponents can confirm this, that I have a very hard time playing mech vs. mech. My opponents tend to roll a disproportionate amount of cover saves while I fail mine. Additionally, I tend to get shaken and stunned results on my opponents, while my vehicles tend to explode or wreck. I suffer from "Paper Predator Syndrome." My Predators die as easily as my open-topped Dark Eldar skimmers. When playing my Dark Eldar, I don't mind losing a vehicle as this is to be expected. Additionally, I can play aggressively and still maintain a 5+ invulnerable save. Armor 13 does me no good!

For example, I borrowed a friend's mech BA army for a 3-game tournament yesterday. His list is Mephiston, a Furioso Librarian, 5 LasPlas Razorbacks, 2 Assault Cannon / Heavy Bolter Baal Predators, and 3 Autocannon / Lascannon Predators. I have played with his army about 6 times and been consistently out-diced. For example, I've been outgunned by a Chaos Space Marine army that consisted of Abaddon in a Land Raider, 4 or so Rhinos, and 2 Vindicators.

In Game 1, I won 1st turn. My opponent boldly deployed 4 Rhinos full of Grey Knights on his 12" line. I shuffled around to get LoS, fired every gun in my entire army, most of which did not grant cover, and managed to shake and stun two different Rhinos. Of course, these results are subsequently ignored. My opponent then kills three of my own vehicles on his Turn 1, each with a penetrating hit that rolled a five or a six. Tactically, my opponent and I were on equal ground. We both knew our armies and maneuvered and shot intelligently. I feel I was genuinely outrolled.

In Game 3, I played another Blood Angel army. Deployment is Dawn of War. His list is roughly Mephiston, 2 Furioso Dreadnoughts, 3 TL Lascannon Razorbacks, a Heavy Bolter Razorback, 2 Assault Cannon / Heavy Bolter Baal Predators, and 2 Storm Ravens. I roll in Turn 1 and pop a smoke on a few of my vehicles that were in the open. He drives in Turn 1, fires both Storm Ravens, and kills a Razorback. I'm thinking I'm in good position since Night Fight is gone, until I fire my entire army and manage to shake one Razorback. In particular, I had a Predator score three penetrating hits against a Storm Raven that were all ignored. I'm used to having that happen to me. In his Turn 2, he proceeds to wreck / explode five of my vehicles. Each penetrating hit that he rolled was a 5 or a 6. The game went downhill from there. Frustrated? Yes. My shining moment was when my Mephiston, with one wound left, passed Wings, Sword, and Rage, each time beating his hood and not Perils-ing, and managed to suicide-bomb his Mephiston in 1v1 combat. His Mephiston did the one wound needed to kill mine, but I feel like I came out on top in that instance. We both had a good laugh about that.

With all of that said, I am looking to build a new, viable infantry army. I don't want anything with an AV on the table. I figure if a Lascannon can kill a ~135 point tank each time I get shot, I might as well have them killing an infantry model instead. In my opinion, the following armies have viable infantry builds:

Blood Angels - Descent of Angels is extremely intriguing to me. I've always loved Assault Marines and this codex seems to make them a great choice. The army can pull Reserve / Deep Strike shenanigans, but would be great for deploying normally as well. Of course, long-range firepower could be an issue as I want the force to feel cohesive. I don't know that I'd want to mix Devastators / Assault Marines. The thought of FnP everything makes me very happy though.
Chaos Demons - This is an army that has never interested me. I feel it has ugly models and mediocre rules. Plus, I don't like that every good Demon list I've seen comes back to Bloodcrushers, Fiends, and Soulgrinders.
Chaos Space Marines - I played Death Guard during the 3.5e codex, and I'm really not interested in building another Chaos army anytime soon. If I wanted to give them a go, I can borrow someone's army locally, as none of them are using their own.
Grey Knights - I already own a foot Grey Knight Terminator army that I quite enjoy. I've found it a lot more viable than the community would have you believe.
Imperial Guard - I simply can't bring myself to play Guard.
Necrons - I've played Necrons for quite a while and I'm actually looking to finally sell my army. They've done great things for me. I tend to roll like a champ with them as well.
Orks - Next to Blood Angels, I view these guys as the only other really viable infantry-based army. My only problem is the sheer amount of models! I can't imagine fielding and painting something like 120 Shoota Boyz with 45 Lootas.
Space Wolves - I used to play 13th company and actually gave the new Codex a try. It didn't feel "right" and my local opponents constantly complained the army was simply too good. I can agree with a lot of their complaints. Plus, Space Marines riding Wolves? Really?
Tyranids - I played Nids in their heyday during 4th edition. I gave the latest codex a try and simply couldn't get on board. I miss my Carnifexes. Sure enough, I ended up selling the force.

There you go! I've omitted the armies that I simply feel cannot build a viable non-AV list as well as Dark Eldar since I'm already running a full mechanized force. I want to point out that my dice are very good to my infantry models and I've been using retired casino dice for about 3 years now. I figured paying $35 for dice I'm happy with was well worth it when you consider the cost of an army!

So what are your suggestions? Thanks in advance!

Seriously, fire your dice.

Orks are awesome... if you can commit to painting that many guys. I've been playing for 3 years now, and I don't have enough painted Orks for a full blown Green Tide list.

Wolf 11x wrote:Grey Knights - I already own a foot Grey Knight Terminator army that I quite enjoy. I've found it a lot more viable than the community would have you believe.

Well this will do. If you feel happy playing this army and have had success then keep on going with them.

ON the matter of dice...
a) if you've used different dice for games, you have terrible luck with armour
b) if you've used the same dice for all your battles, smash them with a hammer or a vice

I notice you didn't add foot Eldar to that "viable" list - try a quick Google search for "Footdar" lists, and you should see some. They almost all feature Eldrad + an Avatar of Khaine, with the primary difference being the amount and type of elite infantry they're made up of. I ain't a competitive player at all, but I lurk around on certain blog sites of those who fancy that they are, and they usually seem to have at least a grudging respect for "Footdar" lists.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:

Wolf 11x wrote:Grey Knights - I already own a foot Grey Knight Terminator army that I quite enjoy. I've found it a lot more viable than the community would have you believe.

Well this will do. If you feel happy playing this army and have had success then keep on going with them.

ON the matter of dice...
a) if you've used different dice for games, you have terrible luck with armour
b) if you've used the same dice for all your battles, smash them with a hammer or a vice

This

It's theraputic too,which saves on therapy bills elsewhere.


I run a greentide ork force sometimes. They are mostly unpainted due to the sheer number of models... I'm with you there.

Most effective foot armies have a lot of models. Even footdar has a lot of them, but Orks and Nids really crank up them model count

I would think about how you want your foot army to play, first.

Shooty, like footdar?, assault oriented, like nids or orks?

Murrdox wrote:Seriously, fire your dice.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:ON the matter of dice...
a) if you've used different dice for games, you have terrible luck with armour
b) if you've used the same dice for all your battles, smash them with a hammer or a vice

As odd and superstitious as this sounds, it has actually worked for me. I know that the odds of a given number being rolled are the same for every die so statistically it shouldn't matter, but I have found that if my dice are particularly cold for me that buying a new set works wonders. I played a game as DE vs GK and I didn't cause a wound or even glance a vehicle for 5 turns until the last turn before the game ended when I wiped out a GK squad in a ruin thanks to templates and a charge (I hit last thanks to a lack of grenades but he finally rolled crappy and I wiped the squad). I used those same dice for both my DE and DA for weeks with constantly mediocre to crap results until Turn 2 of a game against Tyranids with my DA. I bought a new cube of GW black dice and by top of Turn 7 I killed all of his models while still having more than half of my force on the table.

So the moral of the story is when in doubt, buy new dice.

There are a reasonably number of competitive infantry only armies. The thing is that its very easy for them to change from infantry only to infantry heavy. Transports are so cheap in most cases that its really hard to justify not taking them. In short if you want to do a competitive infantry based list then you need lots of firepower and then a combination of survivability and/or mobility without vehicles needing vehicles.

Blood Angels have all 3 so definitely qualify (plenty of melta and missiles, FNP and Jump Packs).
Daemons have mobility (although Deep Striking isn't ideal) and passable survivability but fall over at the firepower (notably anti tank firepower) hurdle. Its something of a loaded question for them though, because they have no choice but to be on foot.
CSM ... just no, they have survivability but on foot Plague Marines aren't fast enough to get anywhere and CSMranged firepower is not that good, so they definitely fall into the 'you could run a foot list but why the hell would you' category.
Grey Knights again have all 3 so definitely can work, widespread access to Psycannons, a massive punch in combat, Shrouding and other such abilities to keep them alive and some very mobile units.
Guard on foot have very limited mobility, but make up for it with huge numbers (which covers the survivability aspect) and an insane amount of shooting so can still be competitive.
Necrons are not a competitive army in any shape or form (although again they are mostly infantry based by default as they have no transport), at least for the next couple of months. Atm they have average survivability (WWB is nice but Phase Out and their vulnerability in assaults kind of cancel each other out), limited mobility and terrible firepower.
Orks on Foot have survivability, but are very slow and can struggle against heavy vehicles, so aren't that great overall. The other problem with them is that you are constantly racing the clock because there are so many of them.
Space Wolves can also work well on foot, they get survivability because of cheap ablative wounds around a CML Wolf Guard Terminator, have access to heaps of missiles and have mobility if you have TWC (although you can actually get enough missiles that they don't really need to move half the time anyway).
Nids are another on foot by default army, mostly they just fall down in the firepower area because of the issues they have with crowded Elite slots, but they are definitely still solid.

You missed off a couple. Probably the most notable is Dark Angels, Deathwing are very nasty post FAQ with CML and TH/SS Terminators everywhere. Nilla Marines can also do a decent infantry based list. You end up with a horde of Marines with Missiles and Meltaguns who are running all over the place with Combat Squads and Combat Tactics. Templars probably also qualify post FAQ, but its hard with them to go pure infantry because they have no infantry in their Heavy Support.

Imho, nearly all armies can go mainly inf, and do it well.
I mean, a full company of marines can be a *meep* to dislocate... 6 tactical squads, 2assault marine squads, 2 devastator squads, a captain and command squad, and a chaplain can fit into a 2k list... 106 marines...

Though, if you want the more standard armies for infantry formations with hordes:
'nids for pure close combat (almost)
Orks somewhere in between, but leaning more to cc, but can still do the quantity of shots deal.. 180 shootaboys, backed by 45 lootas an 9 kannons can put out an awfull amount of dakka... Add 2 kff meks and bring your own cover.
Eldar is a mix aswell, but leaning more to shooting, but can still bring aspects to kick good in cc.
Ig gunlines can bring alot of shooting, more quantity than quality.
Tau can do it too, but more focus on quality and the right tools for different jobs than quantity....

/Calle

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I actually have access to a foot Eldar army I can borrow, but I think I'm going to go ahead and look at putting a DoA army together.

I actually like wraithguard heavy lists for eldar pretty well. They need jet bikes to complete the circle, though, so I guess that doesn't count.

I am offended sirs, offended.
Nids are almost universally crapped upon by the community these days, the masses decrying elite slots and loss of auto win carnifexes.

There is still plenty of footslogging win to the codex, much of it new!

Genestealers. I always picture these guys as 14 point monsters with blenders for hands. 60 of them, in 3 squads of 20, for 840 points. Opponents literally fill the back of their pants and cluster in the center of the board. Then you infiltrate them on the board and watch them cry. Nothing survives 20 stealers, especially if you give them toxin sacs.

Trygons. 2 of them running straight up the middle of the board is just fun.

Harpies are essentially flying tanks. Twin linked S9 blasts. 3 of them for 510 points. And they're massive creatures! Whats not to love? Harder to blow up than a tank, 4 wounds. Even if they don't destroy a tank they stop it from moving so that they get 5+2d6 armor penetrate on rear armor.

For my DoA army I find that you do need some fire support to support the guys coming in. Theres nothing worse than dropping in and having an entire unit wiped out by a big template low AP weapon so those things need to die before you come down. I use devastators but if your against them have enough melta when you come down or you'll be in trouble.

@Doomthumbs: Trygon = awesome. Harpy, not so much. It's awesome right up to the point where you see it's toughness (I think it's S5 T4 iirc. Might be T5), and getting a 150ish pt MC getting ID hurts just as much as losing a predator, especially when it's so damn tall it's hard to give it a cover save. Genestealers without cover saves get munched, even when infiltrated, but if they get cover saves, they are indeed Terror-inducing.

As for the topic on hand, I can't believe the OP forgot lonely Tau!

In particular, you can run an infantry heavy list (whether it's suit heavy or not), but you'll basically have FW hiding in cover most of the game to avoid getting pie-plated into oblivion. However, Tau FW have some of the nicer vanilla shooting (30" S5 anyone?), and the suits can provide the mech and MEQ popping power the army will need. Only issue is that you can't field an infantry Tau army without pathfinders (Unless you and Lady Luck have a very good understanding), and pathfinders come with the ball and chain of buying a Devilfish. However, ignoring that, an all-infantry Tau army should not be forgotten

Harpys are t5, and the ability to deepstrike into side armor and then reroll scatter is tough to ignore. Penetrating hits on most tanks side armor 11 on a 3+? With a re-roll? There's not a lot out there that shouldnt fear that. I like to think of it as the boomfex from 4th edition lost its invuln save and a toughness point, but sprouted wings and got a better gun.

True, and they draw fire wonderfully. They just die to said fire faster than most other big MCs the Nids have. Plus, they pop armor at a more points-effective cost than the damn overpriced tyrrannofexes too... :S

You can also use a bike list to have semi-competitive effect. This would include eldar bikes or marine bikes, and they have the following advantages.

Speed
These lists are extremely fast, allowing for both armies to move 24" a turn. Eldar edge out in the speed department, as they can move 12" in the movement phase, then another 6" in the assault phase. Eldar bikes also ignore cover while moving, allowing them a greater range of the board.

Anti-Armor
Both armies have a lot of firepower and can bring a lot of anti-armor with them. Eldar do so with warlock witchblades/spears, which marines can bring 2 MG/PG and a MM per squad. Both armies only have short range anti-armor, which can cause a problem when facing war walker squads with scatter lasers.

Anti-Infantry
Both armies can bring a lot of fire down on infantry. Both units have TL STR 4 AP 5 weapons, and the eldar have S-Cannons which every 3rd bike. The marines have TL bolters across the board, and can bring a MM attack bike. Both of those can provide a lot of anti-infantry firepower.

Marines can bring 2 PG for each squad. This, combined with the MM shot, gives 5 AP2/1 shots per squad per turn, enough to turn any MEQ squad out of cover into molten boots very quickly. The eldar don't have that kind of anti-MEQ support.

Eldar can give the warlock a flamer template weapon, or the marines can also take flamers as special weapons, if desired. This helps to add more anti-infantry firepower.

Toughness
Marine bikes are tough as nails. T4(5) on all your models is very powerful. Add the 3+ save to it, and you have a model that's tough as nails. I run a marine bike army, and can tell you that STR 3 is just laughable when your T5. Autocannons and other heavy weapons are still a problem -- but the overall effect is much less!
Eldar bikes are T3(4), and so are not nearly as tough. However, for eldar they are still thougher than average.

Assault
Marine bike armies are shooty armies. While I put a PF in each squad, its there for reasons I will not get into on this posting. Command squads are pricy and die easily with 1 wound each -- so I do not bring them. Overall, the only CC that a marine bike army can really bring to bear is the captain. Give him a relic blade, SS, and artificer armor and watch him go to town.

Eldar bikes have a lot more options here. They can bring seer squads on bikes, which are insanely useful. Their ability to tear open vehicles, kill MCs, and to tarpit is not to be ignored. Guardian jetbikes themselves, however, are even weaker than base marine bikes in assault and will crumple when assaulted.

Summary
Bike armies have a lot of options that you might want to consider. While they work best with a little support (such as AC/LC preads, typhoons, or riflemen), they can stand fine on their own as well. The eldar bikes have better anti-GEQ and marines with more anti-MEQ. The eldar are faster, and the marines are tougher.

Both armies can deliver a fun and unique list,.

I'll say it for the fifth time here, DOA Blood Angels are great! I even put jump packs on my Death Company!

Just remember you don't always have to deepstrike. If you're facing a bunch of pie plates fly across the board using cover.

Doomthumbs wrote:
I always picture these guys as 14 point monsters with blenders for hands. 60 of them, in 3 squads of 20, for 840 points. Opponents literally fill the back of their pants and cluster in the center of the board. Then you infiltrate them on the board and watch them cry.

That only works if you're going second. If you're going first, you have to declare them outflanking before your opponent sets up anything.

Well, I just ran a 2000 point foot Eldar list vs a mech IG list.

I had everything, Storm Guardians, Seer Council, Avatar, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Pathfinders, Harlequins, Wraithlord, War Walkers, and Striking Scorpions. I think that is it. Yes, yes I know War Walkers have an AV, but they are also infantry, so I put them in an Infantry list.

At the end of turn 6, neither of us has a lot left, but I won 15 kill points to 9.

It went way better for me than I was expecting, viable and competitive, absolutely.

Then there is a guy who runs an all infantry Chaos Space Marine army of like 120 or do guys on foot.

I had everything, Storm Guardians, Seer Council, Avatar, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Pathfinders, Harlequins, Wraithlord, War Walkers, and Striking Scorpions. I think that is it. Yes, yes I know War Walkers have an AV, but they are also infantry, so I put them in an Infantry list.

Fire Dragons on foot?
The enemy will try to wipe them out at first sight.
Scorpions and Harlies are viable in a footdar list, since
Scorpions can infiltrate or outflank and Harlies are tough to take on for obvious reasons.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:
I had everything, Storm Guardians, Seer Council, Avatar, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Pathfinders, Harlequins, Wraithlord, War Walkers, and Striking Scorpions. I think that is it. Yes, yes I know War Walkers have an AV, but they are also infantry, so I put them in an Infantry list.

At the end of turn 6, neither of us has a lot left, but I won 15 kill points to 9.

I can't imagine how this worked without idiocy or extreme dice luck on one side.

Either way, Eldar should be on his viable foot army list.

I play an all mech army and sometimes a win just isnt going to happen because of bad rolls. It sounds like you had a couple of bad games and are frustrated but a good foot list is going to be just as prone to bad dice as a good mech list. The fact of the matter is a d6 has a pretty high chance of going very well/poorly. That said SM bikers can be a pretty mean all foot army.

Are SoB still a viable army? is so then why not a SoB foot list? i mean arco flagellents, Celestians, a Living Saint, Meltas and rending flamers out the .. That just sounds nasty. Might try it out myself lol

All foot lists can work, mainly because you nullify the high str shooting of your opponent. For instance, a couple of lascannons is a major threat to a tank but not to a boyz squad, genestealer brood or IG power blob.

An IG foot list is not cheesy like a chim spam list. Couple of platoons, hws everywhere. Fun list.

Stealer spam is always good.

Green tide is still playable as well.

Templars! An unholy amount of dudes in black that just grow angrier and angrier the more of them you kill!

Or you could just go the Terminator-Spam Templar way that I'm currently contemplating. 4 Terminator Squads with Cyclones and tank hunters backed up by lasplas squads and LSTs. Admittedly the LSTs are vehicles, but they're mobile enough to avoid most serious threats.

The main problem for Footdar, I find, is that it requires incredible finesse to use. As an army, it's very unforgiving if you make a mistake, even more so than with other Eldar armies.

That said, I'd say that it is the most competitive of foot lists currently, due to the Avatar's fearless bubbles and Eldrad's ability to buff the army up 3 times a turn.

Iranna.